'08 250 won't start

[Guinss]

Originally Posted by kkim

how is that different from using the starter?

because, electric-started bikes are very sensitive to the combination cold weather and maybe not a tip-top fully loaded battery.
A rolling start is 100 times stronger than a e-start :P

my ninja always start, no matter temperature, but i got automatic-choke. gives me perfect air/fuel mixture. a carb bike is a little more tricky, and this wears down the battery over a couple of days.

anyways, just try it. what do you have to loose? 1min...
my 50cc always started on rolling start in the winter, but very often refused to start on e-start, although it was going the same speed(rpm/min) as in the summer, and the battery did "sound" perfectly fine. thats why im suggesting this

roll of a hill or push the bike, full choke, and do not think about touching the throttle till its started(then it will take longer time).
and if you havent done this ever before :P put it in 2nd or 3rd gear before you start of, engage clutch and release again at speed.

[kkim]

Originally Posted by Guinss

because, electric-started bikes are very sensitive to the combination cold weather and maybe not a tip-top fully loaded battery.
A rolling start is 100 times stronger than a e-start :P

sorry, I don't believe that for a minute.

As long as the spark plug fires when it should as the piston comes around, it shouldn't matter what force it is using to it get there, be it an electric starter or the traction from the rear tire.

[Guinss]

Originally Posted by kkim

sorry, I don't believe that for a minute.

that wasnt a fact. therfore the " :P ". its kinda hard to get such things on a forum i guess. just making a point
but its way stronger. its alot more torque :P is that so hard to believe?

Originally Posted by kkim

As long as the spark plug fires when it should as the piston comes around, it shouldn't matter what force it is using to it get there, be it an electric starter or the traction from the rear tire.

well yes it does, i know that for a fact. it need a little more power when the a/f mix isnt right, which is clearly a problem here by the sound of it.

[kkim]

power to do what??? as long as the starter is turning the piston pass top dead center again and again, the effect is the same as jump starting a bike.

I agree with you the air/fuel mixture isn't right, which is why I'm trying to get him to check if gas is indeed flowing from the tank to the carbs. If he has no gas flowing to the carbs, he has no air/fuel mixture.

He can try bump starting if he wants, but I'm guessing it might be a bit wet and snowy where he is right now if he's having 15-40 degree weather.

[Guinss]

Originally Posted by kkim

power to do what??? as long as the starter is turning the piston pass top dead center again and again, the effect is the same as jump starting a bike.

my experience is that it is a difference. also on carb bikes the starter-rpms also controls the vacuum and the fuel-flow. if that too low it wont start. a little rolling in gear makes it flow for sure.

it was just a suggestion, and i could be wrong and his bike wont start, it was not meant as a discussion subject, but dont yell at me when the e-starter is blown and you realise that the bike starts after a few feet of rolling in gear.

Originally Posted by kkim

I agree with you the air/fuel mixture isn't right, which is why I'm trying to get him to check if gas is indeed flowing from the tank to the carbs. If he has no gas flowing to the carbs, he has no air/fuel mixture.

yup. you havent mensioned what may cause this, but i guess you think a vacuum/gas gose is disconnected or something like that? But then it wont stop like he described. Because it was first hard to start, then it wouldnt start at all, makes it all about weather/temperatures imo. A rolling start will make sure it flows good, and it will easily run out all foul or flood that could be in the cylinders. a little rolling without trottle, and im pretty sure that the bike will start right up but yea, as you say, could be difficult because of the weather.

[conchwanab]

previous owner could have had a bad batch of gas.Either dirt or water could be a contaminate.

[Rynownd]

I did actually try a rolling start, but that was when it was really cold. It is now 49F at 8am. Im going to try everything we discussed again. It should be warm enough now, and for long enough, to melt any frozen water in the gas.

If I can't get it started by Saturday, she's goin' into the shop. Although, I don't know how I will get her there.

[g21-30]

My $.02 - Go to the DIY section under Carbs and learn how to drain the fuel bowls and how to disconnect the fuel valve (on/pri). If you do have contaminant in the fuel, you should see it when draining the bowls. You could go ahead and drain the entire tank and add your own gas.

As Kelly stated, you need 3 things: Air (if you're breathing, it must be available), fuel (not sure), and spark (ignition). You can check the spark by disconnecting one spark plug wire and holding it close to the frame and try to start the engine. Watch to see if you have a spark. DON'T DO THIS WHILE GASOLINE IS PRESENT OR THE GAS TANK IS OPEN!

Of course, this is NOT going to be fun, if you're doing it in the COLD. Hopefully, you have a garage or other enclosed area where you can be out of the elements.

Good Luck!!

[Rynownd]

Originally Posted by g21-30

My $.02 - Go to the DIY section under Carbs and learn how to drain the fuel bowls and how to disconnect the fuel valve (on/pri). If you do have contaminant in the fuel, you should see it when draining the bowls. You could go ahead and drain the entire tank and add your own gas.

As Kelly stated, you need 3 things: Air (if you're breathing, it must be available), fuel (not sure), and spark (ignition). You can check the spark by disconnecting one spark plug wire and holding it close to the frame and try to start the engine. Watch to see if you have a spark. DON'T DO THIS WHILE GASOLINE IS PRESENT OR THE GAS TANK IS OPEN!

Of course, this is NOT going to be fun, if you're doing it in the COLD. Hopefully, you have a garage or other enclosed area where you can be out of the elements.

Good Luck!!

Im going to try checking for spark right now, but the rest will have to wait until the evening. My students have their biggest project due, and I have to help them through it.

As for the garage, I have NO access to one. Which is part of the reason I bought the bike. Classic 'assume'tion making and ass of me. I thought I would have trouble free transportation... guess not.

[Guinss]

atleast try a rolling start before you do anything else my advice

[Rynownd]

Tried the petcock in PRI with full choke... nothing. My friend claims he smelled gas tho, but all this outdoor working has given me a cold.


Pulled the left side farring and spark plug wire... I HAVE spark on at least one side. I don't trust the tool given to remove a plug, so I still don't know if I have a fouled plug.

[Rynownd]

OK, tried a few more things with 'no' luck.

1st: Tried PRI + full choke: nothin

2nd: Friend pushed me in 2nd gear. Let out clutch, kinda sounded like it was running until I dis-engaged the clutch.

3rd: Tried all the combos of starting. Best luck came from normal cold start procedure. Full choke, petcock to ON. Sounds like only one cyl. is firing. Which could be cause I've only checked the left side wire and neither actual plug.

Most recent attempt was WOT flood clear technique and I definitely smelled gas.

[kkim]

at this point, try draining the carb bowls to see what is in there. possibly water in the bowls is preventing you from starting.

catch it in a small container then dump the contents into a glass jar so you can see what's in there. put the petcock on pri while you do this.

[Rynownd]

Originally Posted by kkim

at this point, try draining the carb bowls to see what is in there. possibly water in the bowls is preventing you from starting.

catch it in a small container then dump the contents into a glass jar so you can see what's in there. put the petcock on pri while you do this.

This is probably the last thing I will try before taking it to a shop.

When I drain them, do I need to use both of those nipples, or will one of them drain the entire bowl?

[kkim]

there is one drain screw per carb. you need to drain both carbs.

keep in mind, when doing this with the bike in pri, we are actually letting gas flow from the tank, through the carb and out the drain. I'm hoping to flush whatever contaminates that is in the bowl out with (hopefully) fresh gas from your tank. That's why we need to see what comes out of the bowls. if there is water in there, it needs to be flushed again until no more water comes out when flushed.

[kkim]

Ryne,

any update?

[Rynownd]

Originally Posted by kkim

Ryne,

any update?

Nothin... I tried to repeat a few of the things we talked about before. All that time outside in the cold got me nice and sick. I was about to start removal of the right side faring today to get to the fuel bowls, but it was really windy and I just didn't feel up to it. She's goin' in to see the pros tomorrow morning. I'm just gonna pay to have it figured out. I feel like a quitter, but without a proper work space/tools/knowledge I think it would just be better to take a shot in the wallet versus doing damage... assuming I haven't done any already by trying to start it so many times.

Thanks again for all the help. Maybe next time we can actually solve a problem... let's just hope the next time is 'fun' work, like mods, not sucky work just trying to get the darn thing to fire up. I will be sure to get a full description of what the shop does and I will post it on here so people will have it for future reference.

[kkim]

Hey, if you don't have a place to work and the weather conditions suck, I don't blame you. It will be interesting to find out what the problem is. Yes, please update this thread when they get it fixed.

take care... have a few as a cold remedy.

[lavid2002]

Hope everything works out, Ive been reading allong as things have unfolded. I work on small motors allot at the docks, and things are really frustrating until you can open er up and see whats inside. ESPECIALLY when the motor was out of your posession. With my boat....well I know my boat, I know whats wrong with it, what gas is going it, how often its being run etc....When someone brings me a motor and says Fix! Much like your scenario (Just obtained the bike)

The only really effective way(IMO) to see whats wrong it to strip er down....at least a little(Even if its as little as a spark test!). You have to be a realy good diagnostician to tell whats wrong with a motor without stipping stuff down and doing some tests. Especially in your scenario where the bike wont even START! Could be anything. Definately stoked to see what was wrong with it after all....I kind of like taking the carbs off other peoples motors because its always a suprize whats inside. Sometimes there caked with "gelatinized" gasoline clogging the jets and restricting the float etc... Fun stuff!

[Rynownd]

So, I took her to the shop. They said they're going to call me tonight or tomorrow morning with an update... an update I will be sure to forward to you all.

keepin' my fingers crossed it isn't anything major

[lavid2002]

Fingers crossed

[cwb48]

Dumb question, but did you try draining the float bowls? Sometimes water will build up in there over the winter. Just drain out enough to be sure you have fresh gas in the bowls before you try to start it.

Chris

[Realirony]

I've been folowing your story Ryne like it was a good episode of CSI or something. You got me on the edge of my seat waiting to see how ya bay-bay is gonna come through this D=
I really hope that you get it all worked out (for a minimal cost if any) I know the feeling of dread that goes along with favorite things not working >.<

got my fingers crossed for you bro

[Rynownd]

Originally Posted by cwb48

Dumb question, but did you try draining the float bowls? Sometimes water will build up in there over the winter. Just drain out enough to be sure you have fresh gas in the bowls before you try to start it.

Chris

SHE RUNS AGAIN!!!

kkim had suggested I do that, but I never did. I got the piece of tube to do the job, but I just didn't feel up to it (sickness + nasty weather + working outside). Anyway, the shop told me that's exactly what it was... contaminants in my fuel bowls. Guess I should have tried it!

So, for all those out there that have to suffer through winters... if she doesn't start, drain those bowls.

Thanks again for all your help guys and gals! It's officially gorgeous out right now so.... you'll look for me, but baby, I'll be gone!

[Nemy]

ah keep us updated rynownd! cause my bike's not starting anymore either I'll try to drain the bowls and hope for an update here. Otherwise I'll be starting my own thread lol

EDIT: perfect timing. just saw your post... I'll give it a try

[Realirony]

woo hoo! results at last. get out there and show ur baby some love
d=('-')z

[OldGuy]

Alright - good news Ryne

[g21-30]

Did you get to see what the gas looked like? Something like this:



Little water in the gas!

[kkim]

Sam,
is that what came out of yours?

[Rynownd]

I did not get to see what the gas looked like. The tech said 'contaminants' came out of it. Just got back from showin' her some looooove haha. 65 miles of love

[Rynownd]

Oh yeah, I had been talking to the previous owner about this and when I told him I finally got it running he said he had put 'sea foam' in there and never would again... damn right he wont ever again!!

[kkim]

seafoam works well... the bike had water in the gas, which was the problem that the original owner was trying to fix.

how much was the damage from thew shop?

[Rynownd]

Originally Posted by kkim

seafoam works well... the bike had water in the gas, which was the problem that the original owner was trying to fix.

how much was the damage from thew shop?

$65.00

That's a flat rate diag fee. They told me before I signed the papers, if they can fix it within an hour of beginning work, there would not be an additional labor charge. That happened to be the case. I had them change my oil/filter while they were in there too. That's something I will do on my own in the future though.

[g21-30]

Originally Posted by kkim

Sam,
is that what came out of yours?

That's a pic from the "Carb Cleaning Link" under the DIY links at:

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10298

Go to the external link and then click on the left side under "Draining...."

The fellow actually added water to the jar, in order to show what you might expect to see.

Late breaking news! Definitely check out all the links on the left side of the above external link. Number 38 shows how to change the chain. Another one shows a homemade bead breaker (2X4's). ha ha

Also, remember Yamaha makes a great Carb cleaner (pour thru), which was developed when they had that large recall of bikes with bad gas shipped overseas!

[HKr1]

Good to hear they got your bike running

What does the dealer charge these days to drain the bowls????

[miks]

Its great to hear that your bike is up and running, hope this doesn't happen again!

[islanderman7]

Good to hear your bike is up and running again.

Ouch $65 to drain the fuel bowls? If this happens again, I suggest you learn to do this yourself. Its not that hard. Heres a link that shows you how to drain the float bowls for our bikes if your not familiar with it. Drain Float Bowls

[Rynownd]

I don't doubt I can do it myself... I was just frustrated and sick. Plus the weather wasn't great and I have to work outside. Hopefully all these links will save someone else $65 in the future... that's what these forums are for right?

[HKr1]

^ Think you owe Kelly a bottle of rum or something, giving you the fix and not using it isnt his fault.


Was wondering how much it cost at the dealer. Dam Iam stupid, price was right there and I couldnt see it.......... Hell, I wasnt even drinking.

You know, I was thinking some carb cleaner/starter fluid up thru the side/mesh in the air box.... that baby would have lit

[kkim]

lol... I'm sure you would volunteer to go pick it up, too, wouldn't you?


yeah, sucks that we were one step away from solving it, but I can only imagine working in the freezing cold while sick is no picnic. Sometimes it's better to know when to surrender.

Besides, he's only owned the bike for a week and I'm sure he didn't want to screw it up going down the wrong path following some internet hack.

Perhaps in the future the weather, his health and confidence level of the advice given on this board will improve.