ninjette.org

Go Back   ninjette.org > 2008 - 2012 Ninja 250R > 2008 - 2012 Ninja 250R Tech Talk

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 20th, 2020, 08:11 AM   #1
Ash.007
ninjette.org member
 
Name: Ash
Location: South Africa
Join Date: Jan 2019

Motorcycle(s): Kawasaki ninja 250R, Suzuki gsxr750

Posts: 14
Unhappy Help needed on EX250

Hi there.
Hopefully I'm posting in the correct forum, if not can someone please redirect me to the relevant one thanks...

Ok so I'm in need of some advice.
was doing repairs on the bike, installed the bottom end in the opposite direction meaning, the 2T marking that's supposed to be for the No:2 piston is is actually on the 1T
Already put it back to the bike frame,
The top end is setup correctly according to the manual.
But I'm just worried should I re open the bottom end and make sure the No2 piston is on the 2T mark as the manual, or would it be fine to start up leaving it on 1T and the top end as per the manual???

I realise I should have marked the lower not just the top.
Any help would be extremely appreciated
Ash.007 is offline   Reply With Quote




Old December 20th, 2020, 10:45 AM   #2
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
set crank to 2T
unbolt cam-chain tensioner to loosen cam chain
unbolt cams chain
spin cams to correct orientation
bolt cams back in
re-install cam-chain tensioner
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
Old December 20th, 2020, 11:28 AM   #3
Ash.007
ninjette.org member
 
Name: Ash
Location: South Africa
Join Date: Jan 2019

Motorcycle(s): Kawasaki ninja 250R, Suzuki gsxr750

Posts: 14
Thanks for the fast response...
I've already done that which is how I know that currently TDC on 2nd piston is set at 1F instead of 2T...
And if I set it to the 2T that's firing up 1st piston.
Sorry this is my 1st build and I just want to make sure all is correct.
Would it actually matter if I leave it on 1F and install the cams according to the manual, that should fire up piston 2 as it should???
Ash.007 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 20th, 2020, 02:44 PM   #4
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash.007 View Post
Thanks for the fast response...
I've already done that which is how I know that currently TDC on 2nd piston is set at 1F instead of 2T...
And if I set it to the 2T that's firing up 1st piston.
Sorry this is my 1st build and I just want to make sure all is correct.
Would it actually matter if I leave it on 1F and install the cams according to the manual, that should fire up piston 2 as it should???
note that 2T can be either firing OR exhaust depending upon cam position
Spin engine 360-degrees and set crank position to 2T.
Pistons and crank can only go together 1 way.
Cams spin at 1/2 speed of crank.
But cams can go together 2 different ways. Or one of 4 possible combinations.
Note: there's 2 sets of holes in cam sprockets. Make sure intake and exhaust cams are bolted to proper holes so that cam lobes aim in proper position.

Kawasaki spent lots of effort and money on engineering for this bike. Design has run well for over 30-years. You are not going to do better than factory engineers. Don't try to 2nd-guess them, you will destroy engine! Follow procedure in manual religiously! Start with engine at 2T and follow every step after that religiously.

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; December 21st, 2020 at 08:32 AM.
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
Old December 20th, 2020, 07:56 PM   #5
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash.007 View Post
Hi there.
installed the bottom end in the opposite direction meaning, the 2T marking that's supposed to be for the No:2 piston is is actually on the 1T
This is impossible! Unless you bent crank 180-degrees and have crank-journals face opposite way.

There's a woodruff-key on nose of crank that ensures flywheel only goes back on one way. Did you ensure alignment of flywheel with crank using woodruff key? This is extremely critical as trigger-teeth on flywheel for ignition must be aligned properly with crank and pistons.

Also when 2T mark is shown, which piston is at top? The one closest to flywheel or one closest to clutch?
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
Old December 21st, 2020, 09:25 AM   #6
Ash.007
ninjette.org member
 
Name: Ash
Location: South Africa
Join Date: Jan 2019

Motorcycle(s): Kawasaki ninja 250R, Suzuki gsxr750

Posts: 14
Ok so from your reply and a thread I found posted ages ago on this site....

I see why I'm second guessing and seem confused, I listened to a friend who's a car mechanic told me that No1 piston is closest to the cam chain /clutch side. And the 2nd piston is what the manual refers to needs to be at TDC.

Which is why I said that on the 2nd piston (flywheel side) at TDC its showing at 1F and not 2T....

The post I read said that the second piston is actually on the right not left, when sitting on the bike normally.

So.... in actual fact the lower end is sitting correct at 2T on piston 2?
Whatever I took out did go back the same way the woodruff-key was exciting, but I didn't end up having any spare parts left over every nut n bolt accounted.
Ash.007 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 21st, 2020, 10:33 AM   #7
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
yes, don't listen to car people, they don't know anything about bikes or carbs.

Ok, you put it all back together properly. Just put crank @ 2T and follow manual on setting cams and you're set! Be sure to spin engine over several times and verify cams are set properly. Good job!!!
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 22nd, 2020, 04:06 AM   #8
Ash.007
ninjette.org member
 
Name: Ash
Location: South Africa
Join Date: Jan 2019

Motorcycle(s): Kawasaki ninja 250R, Suzuki gsxr750

Posts: 14
Ah so atleast that's put my mind at easy a tiny bit...

The other thing I'm worried about is when I set it up myself 1st time, I must have set it to 1F sealed everything up and was ready to start...
The bike didn't turn over because of the dead battery, replaced it and still didn't do a full turn to start.

Hence I called up a friend, he comes over force the bike to turn few times, with a cabel director the starter, r(starter relay might be faulty), but wont start. Tells me to check my timings again n that's when I posted a message here....

Hopefully the bike on the wrong timing wont damage a valve or anything serious.
I'll only get back to it on Friday after work.
Ash.007 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 26th, 2020, 03:59 AM   #9
Ash.007
ninjette.org member
 
Name: Ash
Location: South Africa
Join Date: Jan 2019

Motorcycle(s): Kawasaki ninja 250R, Suzuki gsxr750

Posts: 14
Ok so I put everything back together. Must have been off by a tooth or so put it on the 2T mark (easy part).
Then the cans as the pic. But I bolted the cams before putting the tensioner on maybe that's my mistake? I'm going to remove and re position it again....
The engine only kept turning didnt want to start up.
Like no fuel, but could definitely get the fuel smell.
Anyway 3rd time lucky, I hope
Ash.007 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 26th, 2020, 10:32 AM   #10
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
trick to off-by-one tooth alignment issue is to pull chain tight on non-tensioner side when installing. That way, there is no slack. So when you reinstall tensioner, there's no change.

Also check pickup-coil spacing to flywheel.

Are you using OEM ignition switch?
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 26th, 2020, 11:08 AM   #11
Ash.007
ninjette.org member
 
Name: Ash
Location: South Africa
Join Date: Jan 2019

Motorcycle(s): Kawasaki ninja 250R, Suzuki gsxr750

Posts: 14
Well I started off with the exhaust cam 1st pulled it right and marked the 1st chain link... then placed the intake cam and counted the 34 links placed the tensioner and noticed the intake cam move into place...
Mind you the gasket cover is still on maybe that's why I'm considering it as a tooth off because the actual horizontal markings still stay the same. I did it 3x just to make sure
Anyway put everything back together.
It cranks but no start....
Yes it still has the OEM ignition switch that never was a problem before all this.

Pickup-coil spacing to flywheel, honestly now I'm lost (error 404 page not found)
Ash.007 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 26th, 2020, 12:23 PM   #12
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
With gasket on, you can still verify cam-timing alignment from other side of engine. Note dash-marks on both cam-gears are straight and lined-up with top of head:




Test for spark.
Pull plug-wires and insert spare plug. Ground it to engine valve-cover and crank, do you see spark?
Could be any number of wires got disconnected when engine was removed.

1. measure resistance of pickup-coils at coils themselves
2. measure pickup-coil resistance at ECU connector

Could also be a power or ground wire's disconnected somewhere.

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; December 26th, 2020 at 10:50 PM.
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 30th, 2020, 06:22 AM   #13
Ash.007
ninjette.org member
 
Name: Ash
Location: South Africa
Join Date: Jan 2019

Motorcycle(s): Kawasaki ninja 250R, Suzuki gsxr750

Posts: 14
Hi thanks again for your help.

I checked for spark and that seems fine.
I pulled off the stator cover and measured the pickup coil at both ends, at the coil measuring 118.1 and connectors its 117.8.

Ok then I'm going to check the cams again just to make sure, your pictures are helpful.

I just hope that its the cams that not properly placed.
Ash.007 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 30th, 2020, 09:17 AM   #14
SibSerge
ninjette.org member
 
Name: Sergey
Location: Ontario, GTA
Join Date: Oct 2019

Motorcycle(s): Ninja ZZR250 (EX250H)

Posts: 213
To take the fuel delivery out of the equation did you try to spray something like a starter spray directly into the airbox. If you timing and ignition is ok that will fire up the engine for a few revs
SibSerge is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 31st, 2020, 05:24 AM   #15
Ash.007
ninjette.org member
 
Name: Ash
Location: South Africa
Join Date: Jan 2019

Motorcycle(s): Kawasaki ninja 250R, Suzuki gsxr750

Posts: 14
Since I dont have starter fluid, I tried using carb cleaner. Sprayed it in the air box tried starting. And it still sounds the same. Swinging but not enough to start. Guess that's something else altogether now???
Ash.007 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 31st, 2020, 07:11 AM   #16
jkv45
Rev Limiter
 
jkv45's Avatar
 
Name: Jay
Location: WI
Join Date: Jul 2013

Motorcycle(s): '06 SV650n, '00 Derbi GPR, '64 CA77 Dream 305, '70 CL450 Scrambler, numerous dirt bikes

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Jun '18, Oct '16
You'd be better to use some gas in a spray bottle. I don't think Carb Cleaner will ignite like Starter Fluid.

In order to get anything into the intake you need to open the throttle and manually lift the slides - if you don't, whatever you spray doesn't make it into the intake.

Ducatiman will tell you that Starter Fluid is bad for the Ninja's slides, so be sure to lift them out of the way before spraying if you use it.

All you are looking for is some sign of life. That tells you that your problems come from inadequate or improper fuel metering.

Be sure to charge the battery, and check it with a volt meter to make sure it's holding proper voltage. You should see over 12.7V before cranking and over 10V while cranking. If you don't have that you'll never get it to run properly.
jkv45 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 31st, 2020, 08:12 AM   #17
ducatiman
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
ducatiman's Avatar
 
Name: Gordon
Location: new york
Join Date: Sep 2009

Motorcycle(s): '95 DUCATI 900SS/SP '07 DUCATI SS800 '19 HONDA CBR650R

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Nov '18, Mar '17
Visible effects of start fluid on a Ducati slide surface, IMHO damaging crap that more applies to the diesel equipment/heavy industry trade than CV carbed motorbikes. Plastic/nylon slides and rubber diaphragms prone to damage when exposed.

Don't want to derail the thread any further though.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg rex5.jpg (143.6 KB, 4 views)
__________________________________________________
gordon@customcarbservices.com
Custom Carb Service
www.customcarbservices.com
ducatiman is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 31st, 2020, 09:23 AM   #18
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
What colour of spark did you see when testing?
white?
yellow?
blue?

When was last time bike ran before rebuild?
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 31st, 2020, 09:44 AM   #19
SibSerge
ninjette.org member
 
Name: Sergey
Location: Ontario, GTA
Join Date: Oct 2019

Motorcycle(s): Ninja ZZR250 (EX250H)

Posts: 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkv45 View Post
You'd be better to use some gas in a spray bottle. I don't think Carb Cleaner will ignite like Starter Fluid.

In order to get anything into the intake you need to open the throttle and manually lift the slides - if you don't, whatever you spray doesn't make it into the intake.

Ducatiman will tell you that Starter Fluid is bad for the Ninja's slides, so be sure to lift them out of the way before spraying if you use it.

All you are looking for is some sign of life. That tells you that your problems come from inadequate or improper fuel metering.

Be sure to charge the battery, and check it with a volt meter to make sure it's holding proper voltage. You should see over 12.7V before cranking and over 10V while cranking. If you don't have that you'll never get it to run properly.
All great points Jay, thanks for the info on the starter fluid. I did not know that its harmful. Gasoline in spray bottle is a great idea.
SibSerge is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 31st, 2020, 10:51 AM   #20
jkv45
Rev Limiter
 
jkv45's Avatar
 
Name: Jay
Location: WI
Join Date: Jul 2013

Motorcycle(s): '06 SV650n, '00 Derbi GPR, '64 CA77 Dream 305, '70 CL450 Scrambler, numerous dirt bikes

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Jun '18, Oct '16
Quote:
Originally Posted by SibSerge View Post
All great points Jay, thanks for the info on the starter fluid. I did not know that its harmful. Gasoline in spray bottle is a great idea.
Ducatiman gets the credit for that.

I will use Starting Fluid occasionally, but try to be aware that it's nasty stuff and rough on plastic and rubber.

Doesn't take much, just a quick shot and you will know if you have a fuel issue or not.
jkv45 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old January 3rd, 2021, 09:02 AM   #21
Ash.007
ninjette.org member
 
Name: Ash
Location: South Africa
Join Date: Jan 2019

Motorcycle(s): Kawasaki ninja 250R, Suzuki gsxr750

Posts: 14
Thanks for the help as always

Ok the spark on both plugs are blueish
It last ran in March last year. Was parked off since August when I started to work on it. I completed everything back together when I posted on this website last month...

And sorry It is a new battery but I did put it back to charge, thou I forgot to check what the fully charged reading was and had already tried cranking it few times, so its weaker than fully charged, under load it was around 10.45v normal was 12.3v

I had a 10ml syringe of fuel. And poured lil into the carb started and still nothing. It's just swinging & swinging. Not showing any signs of actually starting.

Should I pull the carb off and have it cleaned?
Ash.007 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old January 3rd, 2021, 10:04 AM   #22
Triple Jim
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
 
Triple Jim's Avatar
 
Name: Jim
Location: North Carolina
Join Date: Jul 2016

Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '18, Aug '17, Aug '16
Spraying gasoline from a bottle is not without risk. Watch out that you don't get a backfire and end up with a handfull of burning gasoline!

I might go as far as using a squirt bottle to squirt a small amount in each carb, then put the bottle aside and try starting the engine.
Triple Jim is offline   Reply With Quote


Old January 3rd, 2021, 01:59 PM   #23
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
That's too much petrol! Maybe 1ml per cylinder max! Might be easier to spray into airbox to have more air and time to vapourise.

Did you drain float-bowls and dry out carbs before working on engine?

Sitting with old petrol for 21-months is sure to cause plastic-like clogs in carb passages. Would definitely need full carb-restoration.
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


Old January 3rd, 2021, 04:24 PM   #24
jkv45
Rev Limiter
 
jkv45's Avatar
 
Name: Jay
Location: WI
Join Date: Jul 2013

Motorcycle(s): '06 SV650n, '00 Derbi GPR, '64 CA77 Dream 305, '70 CL450 Scrambler, numerous dirt bikes

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Jun '18, Oct '16
What have you done to it mechanically since it ran last?

Have you tried opening the throttle slightly, or all the way, as you are cranking? Doesn't need much fuel, just a decent squirt. All you want to hear is momentary sputter and you know.

The battery needs a bit more charging. Should read 12.7V minimum if fully charged.
jkv45 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old January 8th, 2021, 08:17 AM   #25
Ash.007
ninjette.org member
 
Name: Ash
Location: South Africa
Join Date: Jan 2019

Motorcycle(s): Kawasaki ninja 250R, Suzuki gsxr750

Posts: 14
I changed the big end bearings only then put everything back together...
Yes I did try turning the throttle a bit, no go...

I didn't drain the float bowls because when o took it off and had it on the shelf I thought most of it leaked out,
So that means carb to be restored

Well I got 1 friend give me a bottle of starting fluid, and another give me a 350ml spray bottle of 90% ethanol I got my spray bottle of fuel too. Which is the best option I should go with.
I'll put the battery back to charge.
Ash.007 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old January 8th, 2021, 08:24 AM   #26
Triple Jim
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
 
Triple Jim's Avatar
 
Name: Jim
Location: North Carolina
Join Date: Jul 2016

Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '18, Aug '17, Aug '16
Just be extremely careful if you spray such flammable liquids around an engine!
Triple Jim is offline   Reply With Quote


Old January 9th, 2021, 04:28 AM   #27
Ash.007
ninjette.org member
 
Name: Ash
Location: South Africa
Join Date: Jan 2019

Motorcycle(s): Kawasaki ninja 250R, Suzuki gsxr750

Posts: 14
Ok so the battery charger said 100%.
Placed it on the bike. Made a mixture of 1ml ethanol 4ml fuel.
Sprayed few times from the air box side definitely was enough.
But nothing. Just cranks continuously...

So I'm guessing its actually a compression issue.
And the fact that i didnt change the piston rings could be the problem
Ash.007 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old January 9th, 2021, 05:44 AM   #28
Triple Jim
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
 
Triple Jim's Avatar
 
Name: Jim
Location: North Carolina
Join Date: Jul 2016

Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '18, Aug '17, Aug '16
You know the next test to perform then, to eliminate your guessing.
Triple Jim is offline   Reply With Quote


Old January 11th, 2021, 02:07 AM   #29
Ash.007
ninjette.org member
 
Name: Ash
Location: South Africa
Join Date: Jan 2019

Motorcycle(s): Kawasaki ninja 250R, Suzuki gsxr750

Posts: 14
Thumbs up

A compression test...
So I just have to find someone who can do that for me, as I dont have 1 of those.
Ash.007 is offline   Reply With Quote


Reply




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Help needed on EX250 Ash.007 2008 - 2012 Ninja 250R Tech Talk 0 December 20th, 2020 08:11 AM
Pre-gen (1987) Ex250 parts needed headrx Items Wanted 2 July 11th, 2020 02:45 PM
Help needed Seanr97 2008 - 2012 Ninja 250R Tech Talk 10 February 27th, 2017 10:52 AM
We go where we are needed. NathanUc General Motorcycling Discussion 37 January 23rd, 2012 06:15 PM
suggestions needed tinng321 2008 - 2012 Ninja 250R Farkles 6 June 4th, 2009 01:21 PM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


Motorcycle Safety Foundation

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:14 AM.


Website uptime monitoring Host-tracker.com
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Except where otherwise noted, all site contents are © Copyright 2022 ninjette.org, All rights reserved.