Question about oil blend

[fast1075]

HA! I gots skull valve stem caps and a chrome chain, that's at least 40 more horsepower!

[LCR]

Originally Posted by mgentz

I love oil threads. Do what you will Unregistered, my bike is still faster as I have more stickers.

Was that a reference to me?

Either way I agree with most of the posts here if he steered you away from syn because it made his clutch slip on his race 250 something is wrong with his clutch.

Although I sell Amsoil now I used it before that. I and multiple people in the pits around here have done 6 and 8 hour endurance races with zero problems. One guy even get oil analysis done on them regularly and no issues running the Amsoil multiple race weekends.

If you don't want to spend $10/qt on Amsoil just use a quality motorcycle oil that you like.

[fast1075]

When I had clutch trouble with Castrol Syntec, it wasn't a 250 Ninja.

1327 cc Kawi Z-1 with a 100 hp nitrous shot. (165 hp on motor alone, you get the picture). The clutch was an MTC 3 stage slider. I had been using Mobil 1 in 5w-30 in it. I spun the tire which kicked a shift fork. I pulled the pan off and changed the shift fork (you can't do that with a set of stock cases).

When I put it all back together, the only oil I could get was the Castrol without running all over. Any way, the clutch slipped like a madman and fried the pack. Put it back in the trailer and went home. Damn good slippery oil, but not good for a wet clutch.

I changed back to Mobil 1 the next week, replaced the clutch pack and went 50 rounds over the next 8 events without a single problem. It was definitely the oil.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by fast1075

When I had clutch trouble with Castrol Syntec, it wasn't a 250 Ninja.

1327 cc Kawi Z-1 with a 100 hp nitrous shot. (165 hp on motor alone, you get the picture). The clutch was an MTC 3 stage slider. I had been using Mobil 1 in 5w-30 in it. I spun the tire which kicked a shift fork. I pulled the pan off and changed the shift fork (you can't do that with a set of stock cases).

When I put it all back together, the only oil I could get was the Castrol without running all over. Any way, the clutch slipped like a madman and fried the pack. Put it back in the trailer and went home. Damn good slippery oil, but not good for a wet clutch.

I changed back to Mobil 1 the next week, replaced the clutch pack and went 50 rounds over the next 8 events without a single problem. It was definitely the oil.

Were both standard 5W-30 auto oils? If so then, yes, it certainly could be the oil. Both of those oils contain Friction Modifiers.

In that application, with that much power being transmitted through the clutch plates, using an oil with Friction Modifiers will cause slipping. Even if you didn't have that much power, it could still be a problem.

As I've said before, DO NOT USE AUTO OILS IN A CYCLE ENGINE! Friction Modifiers may cause clutch slipping, but more importantly the lack of proper levels of additives can easily cause damage to valvetrain components.

For what you had there, an Ester-based synthetic racing oil like Motul or Redline would be a much better choice.

[RBN]

Luckily I can speak from many years experience using car oil, and it's certainly not a one size fits all yes or no answer.

Over here cheapo 20/50 car oil was until recently about 1/4 the price of bike oil so I ran all my bikes on it and changed it regularly, I did this for many many years and hundreds of thousands of miles.

Over the years I found that the amount of clutch slip (if any) was really hit and miss, some bikes would slip with certain oils more than others and other bikes wouldn't slip at all regardless of what oil went in. But even when an oil did cause slip it was still completely rideable for me as I am a very sedate rider who changes gear at relatively low RPM 99% of the time. I'm sure that if I was the type of rider who liked fast paced riding and aggressive gear shifts I'm sure it would have been a different story all together.

The ONLY time I had clutch slip that it was a problem to ride with was when I used a top brand oil (Magnatec or some such thing) which caused very bad slip. But again with that said I have a friend who uses it in his bike (completely different make and model to mine) and gets no slip at all.

Then about a year or two ago the price of all the cheap oils went up so I no longer use it, why bother with any clutch slip at all just to save £20 a year.

Being a ratbiker many of the people I ride with run their bikes on a shoestring budget and as such use only car oil in their bikes. Many report no clutch slippage at all or clutch slip only when "giving it a right handful". Neither my friends ancient XJ , his equally decrepit Goldwing or VFR750 have any issues running car oil, all of which have well exceeded the life expectancy of their particular engines and are still going strong.

As such my view is that the amount of clutch slip is entirely dependent on the bike/oil combination. And that if the clutch does indeed slip it will usually just reduce the amount of rpm you can change at (how much of a reduction will again be bike/oil dependent), whether or not you can live with the reduction is entirely personal preference. And lastly that car oil certainly doesn't seem to cause excessive wear providing it's changed regularly of course, as most of our bikes would have been dead or at least very knackered a long time ago.

[Aodrn]

My guess (without any research data) is that 9/10 will total the bike before oil changes become an issue. Just saying

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by RBN

Luckily I can speak from many years experience using car oil, and it's certainly not a one size fits all yes or no answer.

Actually it is - no is the answer.

The REAL issue isn't Friction Modifiers and clutch slippage - Modifiers are only used in oil grades up to 30 so no 40-grade has them anyway.

Back-in-the-day auto oils had higher levels of additives (ZDDP) that you really need for a cycle engine - not any more.

I used auto oils back then also, but not any more.

EDIT: The solution to a less expensive oil that's safe for cycle engines is a 40-grade diesel oil - Rotella, Delvac, etc. It's generally a good quality base and has the higher amounts of ZDDP that are needed to protect the cams and rockers. It's also easy to find and not very expensive - win.

[RBN]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Actually it is - no is the answer.

The REAL issue isn't Friction Modifiers and clutch slippage - Modifiers are only used in oil grades up to 30 so no 40-grade has them anyway.

Back-in-the-day auto oils had higher levels of additives (ZDDP) that you really need for a cycle engine - not any more.

I used auto oils back then also, but not any more.

EDIT: The solution to a less expensive oil that's safe for cycle engines is a 40-grade diesel oil - Rotella, Delvac, etc. It's generally a good quality base and has the higher amounts of ZDDP that are needed to protect the cams and rockers. It's also easy to find and not very expensive - win.

TBH I was under the impression ZDDP percentage in car oil was on the decline since like the 80's or 90's and has been at the same low/non existent levels as today for around a decade. Though this may of course be different between Europe and the rest of the world.

Regarding Diesel oil, are there not implications resulting from the higher detergent levels? Seem to recall reading it somewhere or other but can't recall where.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by RBN

TBH I was under the impression ZDDP percentage in car oil was on the decline since like the 80's or 90's and has been at the same low/non existent levels as today for around a decade. Though this may of course be different between Europe and the rest of the world.

Regarding Diesel oil, are there not implications resulting from the higher detergent levels? Seem to recall reading it somewhere or other but can't recall where.

I haven't been able to find the exact timeline for reduction of ZDDP levels in standard auto oils, but will post it if I can.

As far as detergent levels in diesel oil, I've heard that mentioned before, but never found any evidence that their detergent package was an issue when used in a cycle engine.

I'm very confident that diesel oils are a much better choice than standard auto oils in a cycle engine.

[RBN]

Originally Posted by jkv45

I haven't been able to find the exact timeline for reduction of ZDDP levels in standard auto oils, but will post it if I can.

If you do find anything I'd sure appreciate seeing it as it seems to be what this whole thing rests on.

Something that struck me as interesting was that yesterday I found myself in a bike shop and while I was there I checked out some of the oils available and whilst they made no (or very little) mention of what was actually in them to my surprise around half of them featured the words:

"safe for use in engines with catalytic converters"

Wouldn't that suggest they don't have zddp in them? These were all motorcycle specific oils.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by RBN

Something that struck me as interesting was that yesterday I found myself in a bike shop and while I was there I checked out some of the oils available and whilst they made no (or very little) mention of what was actually in them to my surprise around half of them featured the words:

"safe for use in engines with catalytic converters"

Wouldn't that suggest they don't have zddp in them? These were all motorcycle specific oils.

High (safe) levels of ZDDP don't mean instant plugging of the catalyst.

It takes time, and because auto engines typically go significantly more miles before needing major service the ZDDP limitations are based on 100,000+ mi of use. They are also factoring in oil consumption as the engine nears that mark.

In more limited use, and minimal consumption, there's no harm to the catalyst from high levels of ZDDP.

If you are unsure, most manufacturers will give you the zinc and phosphorus levels in their oil - except Castrol that is. 1200 and over is commonly considered safe for cycle engines, with some cycle oils in the 1500-1700 range. Standard auto oils are held to under 800 ppm.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by jkv45

As far as detergent levels in diesel oil, I've heard that mentioned before, but never found any evidence that their detergent package was an issue when used in a cycle engine.

I'm very confident that diesel oils are a much better choice than standard auto oils in a cycle engine.

The "Commercial (Diesel) Oil" section of http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Oils1.html gets into why he actually prefers the "diesel" oils. They're designed for better protection and stability, with less regard for emissions equipment and gas mileage. This is in contrast to the API S standards, where newer ones removed some high temperature protection and started adding the energy-conserving stuff. The JASO M standards were actually created in response to these changes that negatively affected typical motorcycle engines. The 500's manual calls for the older API SG oil, or also having JASO MA certification along with API SH and newer.

Rotella (15W-40 dino and 5W-40 synthetic) meets the requirements listed in the manual and is cheap (I've gotten T6 for as low as $9/gallon with a sale and rebate), so that's what I use. Some modern "good" oils actually don't even meet the manual's requirements.

Originally Posted by jkv45

I haven't been able to find the exact timeline for reduction of ZDDP levels in standard auto oils, but will post it if I can.

Originally Posted by http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Oils1.html

Mostly JASO-MA is pretty much equivalent to SH. In fact, the JASO spec is mostly a reaction to the decrease in zinc-phosphates in SJ and SL oils, and the added molybdenum disulfide in energy conserving oils.

According to http://www.pqiamerica.com/apiserviceclass.htm, SJ was 1996-2001 and SL was 2001-2004.

[kennetht]

Originally Posted by mgentz

I love oil threads. Do what you will Unregistered, my bike is still faster as I have more stickers.

how come you mentioned me in this thread? i havent even commented on this thread until now lol...

[mgentz]

Its the [ you ] tag

[kennetht]

Originally Posted by mgentz

Its the [ you ] tag

not sure what that is?

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by kennetht

not sure what that is?

If you type the [you] BB Code in a post, it will substitute the current viewer's username into the message.

For example, here's what it looks like when I type "I'm better than [you]!":

I'm better than Unregistered!

[kennetht]

Originally Posted by InvisiBill

If you type the [you] BB Code in a post, it will substitute the current viewer's username into the message.

For example, here's what it looks like when I type "I'm better than [you]!":

I'm better than Unregistered!

o i gotcha. haha. so everyone sees their username in that post. gotcha. thanks