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Old March 4th, 2013, 02:07 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by bruce71198 View Post
mgentz, I would like to see the ports on your cylinder head, post them if you can. Is your bike going to be a track bike only ? If your taking the time to ship the crank out to Falicon you might want to eliminate the balance shaft and have them balance the crank for that. Probably wouldnt want to do that on a street bike.
Bike will be track/street. I called Falicon and was told by their tech that the "balance" shaft has nothing to do with the balance of the rotating assembly. It is there to cancel harmonics and quell natural vibrations. I was also told that I could remove it, but unlike a GSXR 1000 or some other I-4 motors, I will most likely GAIN vibration even after the balancing. I was then told that for road racing this bike, I should under no circumstances pull it.

I will keep it.

Also I don't have the pull the flywheel before I send it to Falicon so that will be nice.....
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Old March 4th, 2013, 02:40 PM   #42
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I have to agree about the balance shaft.
let us know how it goes with the flywheel. I have never gotten one off, I have the tool and very powerful impact guns. I never tried heating it .
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Old March 5th, 2013, 03:08 AM   #43
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Dont get rid of the balance shaft. Inline's suffer from secondary vibrations which can not be removed no matter how well you balance the crank!!!

To get the flywheel out. You need an impact this big. 500 Nm of Torque. The mechanic at Kelen Kawasaki Penrith uses one with 550 Nm and has never had a problem.


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Old March 5th, 2013, 04:31 AM   #44
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That's good info on the balance shaft, I didn't realize it was that important on the twin.
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Old March 5th, 2013, 05:38 AM   #45
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I have one even bigger.

Now I'm just waiting on the flywheel tool
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Old March 7th, 2013, 02:27 AM   #46
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After a long day wrenching and 17 crank case bolts later. Here is my reward. Finally, its time to get my shaft balanced.

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Old March 7th, 2013, 05:43 AM   #47
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I should have the flywheel puller tonight. I should have my crank pulled tonight as well.
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Old March 7th, 2013, 05:50 AM   #48
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some pics of the head
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Old March 7th, 2013, 05:51 AM   #49
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my smoked clutch and "new" rear brake!
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Old March 7th, 2013, 06:19 AM   #50
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they did a really good job with your head. Are those valves custom or out of another engine?

I hope my head looks as decent as that. You should see some nice gains.

Good luck with the case splitting. A piece of wood and a rubber mallet should do the job. Theres a couple a handy tabs you can use to pry them apart.
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Old March 7th, 2013, 06:23 AM   #51
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dont forget the little ones before you start trying to split the case. The case splits easy. If it does not move look for a bolt.

Thanks for the photos That looks great. I cant wait to get my new motor running,
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Old March 7th, 2013, 08:20 AM   #52
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I've been watching this thread with much anticipation....would you guys get these thing on the dyno, soon !! Your killin me ! I'm sure you have discussed valve size somewere in here, can any of you sum up the results/findings ?
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Old March 7th, 2013, 09:05 AM   #53
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I've been watching this thread with much anticipation....would you guys get these thing on the dyno, soon !! Your killin me ! I'm sure you have discussed valve size somewere in here, can any of you sum up the results/findings ?
Mine are +1mm. The head was completely reworked to accomodate and the pistons were measured to ensure clearance.

The +1mm valves are actually from an R1 (would need to ask again to be 100%) and they were cut and machined to fit. As you can see, the head has also been machined to better de-shroud the valves.

Dyno will be a ways off yet...I'm pulling the crank tonight to get it balanced at Falicon and they told me 3 weeks. I will need about 2 weeks after that to assemble and procure everything.
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Old March 7th, 2013, 03:58 PM   #54
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Also, I just got an update on the WEB v. BEET debate. See below:

WEB usually uses .050" opening for their specs where Japanese usually use 1.0mm (.03937"). That causes the Web Duration to seem shorter. I don't know what stock specs are for comparison, but the Kawi manual uses zero-lash, zero-lift (at the cam) specs in the manual. Impossible to cross reference.

This would also affect lift measurements.
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Old March 8th, 2013, 02:12 AM   #55
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Also, I just got an update on the WEB v. BEET debate. See below:

WEB usually uses .050" opening for their specs where Japanese usually use 1.0mm (.03937"). That causes the Web Duration to seem shorter. I don't know what stock specs are for comparison, but the Kawi manual uses zero-lash, zero-lift (at the cam) specs in the manual. Impossible to cross reference.

This would also affect lift measurements.
Why I hate cam manufacturer's. Wish they could all just use the measurements taken from the lobes themselves.

I've been told by cam grinder's (cam tech) that manufacturer's specs are always different so they degree all cams by themselves before grinding.

Web will send you the degrees at which the valves open and close (only thing that is universal). I don't have the Beet but I will be dialling it in to find out so we can compare that way. We just wont have lift, but if you can get a pair of vernier's or micrometer to measure the lobes we can compare.

My stock bore/stock valve bike should be ready a bit before Mike's.

I dropped off crank today. Should be ready some time next. My head should be ready now, will have to go down there for an update. Dyno testing should start the week after next. 18th of March is the date I'm going for
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Old March 8th, 2013, 04:57 AM   #56
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My 250 should be done soon. I am having custom made cams. From mega cycle. The bottom is balanced the head is ported and they're working on te cams now. They have increase the duration. Now my builder has to determin the lift and send the cams back. Should be interesting to compare with the other cams
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Old March 8th, 2013, 07:22 AM   #57
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My 250 should be done soon. I am having custom made cams. From mega cycle. The bottom is balanced the head is ported and they're working on te cams now. They have increase the duration. Now my builder has to determin the lift and send the cams back. Should be interesting to compare with the other cams
What pistons you running in this engine?

I wanted to do the same with my stock cams but the guys I mentioned above could not degree it because the spacing between lobe and journal was too small for their tool's. Only guys in my state that do this stuff to, so I went aftermarket.
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Old March 8th, 2013, 08:02 AM   #58
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I am using JE 12.5 to 1 std bore. It is my #1 engine. It is being built by one of the best in the business. It will be very nice. Carrillo rods. Balanced and blueprinted. Full ARP studs top and bottom. Ported head, larger exhaust valves for nitrous. I am looking into ceramic coatings. The cams by mega cycle. The engine has been in the works for four years. It's almost ready.
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Old March 8th, 2013, 09:18 AM   #59
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My crank will be done in 4 weeks or less. I will get the bike back together within 3 weeks after that. I plan to break her in when it is a little bit warmer to avoid stupid mishaps. Also, in the meantime I can repaint the lower crankcase, man it takes a beating!

As for my bike, some specs are below for your reference:

APE ported head with +1mm intake valves
Wiseco 12.5:1 +2mm pistons
Millenium Tech bored and coated cylinder
Falicon Ultra Light Super crank
Web cams (IN & EX)
Jetted carbs with modified stock airbox

This will be fun on the street/track....I will keep posting pics as I move along. Please do the same!
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Old March 8th, 2013, 07:20 PM   #60
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I am looking into ceramic coatings. .
Let me know how this goes. I'm very interested. What do you think about Microblue? Nascar are meant to use these guys.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mgentz View Post
APE ported head with +1mm intake valves
Wiseco 12.5:1 +2mm pistons
Millenium Tech bored and coated cylinder
Falicon Ultra Light Super crank
How much did Falicon quote you for their super crank?

My balancing turned out to be a lot cheaper than what I thought. I'm not getting anything special done to it like you are, just standard dynamic balancing. Got quoted $170. I can't wait to see what they do to your crank. Please post some photos.

Mods will be:
12:5 J&E stock bore for now on balanced assemblies. (13:1 depending on a few things)
Ported Head (Rams head), stock valves
Beet cams
Stock carbs for now (FCR 33mm soon), no airbox, got 2 little K&N pods. The rubber carb holders have been ported to match the head.

I can get these FCR custom made to be 68mm apart. Stock is 66mm. Just got to figure out how much room I have for downdraft. Need the bike together to do this.

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Old March 11th, 2013, 10:09 AM   #61
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too much....really. I have a sneaking suspicion that my bike will be one of the most damn expensive ninjette's out there....

However, it should be REALLY sweet when it comes back as it will be polished, chamfered, lightened, had the oil holes chamfered and more!

I will need to get this thing on the dyno ASAP.
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Old March 11th, 2013, 03:10 PM   #62
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Don't worry about being the most expensive ninja out there. The first turbo ninja has everyone beat.
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Old March 11th, 2013, 04:45 PM   #63
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I have a lot more done than the motor. In the end I will have a ton of experience with THIS bike and will be able to share. Kind of like you and this bike.

I can't wait to get this thing on a dyno...but even more I want to ride it. Track time will be fun.
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Old March 12th, 2013, 01:28 AM   #64
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I've been getting quotes on crank services here in Australia and I think I know why they are charging so much.

They will most likely treat it nitride after they lighten it. Really expensive. Basically you need to get 5 guys with cranks together to make it reasonable.

Crank grinding is actually pretty cheap. Knife edging and chamfering probably accounts for maybe 100 to 150 dollars. Polishing $60-$100. The rest of the expense is on the nitride treatment. This is probably also why it is taking so long. Takes a couple of days just for treatment and they would do at least 5-10 cranks at a time.

I'm most likely getting it knife edged because its cheap. Balancing turned out to be $205 ($160 for the other guy to do it) . This is balanced to 2 tenths of a gram. Duncan Foster Precision Engineering are the best around here for balancing. Just need to wait for new con rod bolts to get it balanced(tomo).

http://www.duncanfoster.com.au/Dunca...bout%20us.html

A video on youtube showing how they balance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3ZNWB4Z18M

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Old March 13th, 2013, 12:58 AM   #65
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A few photos of the head. I ask him about the valve guides. He said you only want to do that if your racing because the gains are minimal while creating a lot more risk of failure, meaning you need to change them often. This is dependant on how far the bottom of the guide finishes before the valve seat as it isn't the same on different heads.

You can see they have enlarged the area around the guide to compensate whilst giving me a long lasting head.

You can also see how bad the casting mark is on the short side radius that splits the ports as they couldn't even remove it all without making the ports too big.

Intake - Razor sharp, the shape of the split line has been changed a fair bit. The ports are D shaped like Mike's.









Exhaust - Not so sharp



Newen valve seats


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Old March 13th, 2013, 04:54 AM   #66
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How did they port the rubber boot?

Looks nice..can't wait to see your crankshaft.
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Old March 13th, 2013, 06:07 AM   #67
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Turns out they didn't do much to the boot as it wasn't needed. It does blend up nice though. They maybe took 2mm out of the thick inner part for about half the way up. You can see the marks from the tool.

You could do they same with some sand paper. Just give it a real light touch up.

I'll have crank on Friday. Its getting knifed edge and balanced to 0 it turns out. He says 0.2 of a gram is a lot. I get a print out from the cpu so i'll find out exactly what he gets it to. I'll post some photo's.

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Old March 13th, 2013, 06:14 AM   #68
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Turns out they took 3mm of the inside diameter. Measured with verniers. I guess it is a fair bit.
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Old March 13th, 2013, 06:28 AM   #69
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Two questions. What are you doing about the exhaust port size and exhaust header? And do you need to shim the spark plug to get it up out of the combustion chamber?
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Old March 13th, 2013, 10:51 AM   #70
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With the wiseco 12.5:1 pistons I don't need to shim the plug. As for the exhaust I am going to break out my calipers and do some measuring tonight. I may see if someone can do some custom work for me.
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Old March 13th, 2013, 02:06 PM   #71
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I was looking at the head. It looks like there is some material that has been removed. You don't want the plug sticking to far into the chamber. Also , I am not sure if it matters. But you can index the plug while you have the head off.
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Old March 13th, 2013, 07:33 PM   #72
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I was looking at the head. It looks like there is some material that has been removed. You don't want the plug sticking to far into the chamber. Also , I am not sure if it matters. But you can index the plug while you have the head off.
I put the plugs in my head already and they are actually well aligned. I also measured the depth that they stuck out (I was trying to see if some SPECIAL plugs would fit).

But for others sake, will you please explain and show pictures?

I think we shold change the name of this thread to ninjette engine builds or high performace mods or something....anyone?
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Old March 13th, 2013, 08:48 PM   #73
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I was looking at the head. It looks like there is some material that has been removed. You don't want the plug sticking to far into the chamber. Also , I am not sure if it matters. But you can index the plug while you have the head off.
Thanks for the tip Eric. I will use the colder cr9's instead of 8's. Index them to ensure the last thread line's up. Just got to figure out which way I want this electrode facing.

Read this Mike.
http://www.hotrod.com/pitstop/hrdp_1...h/viewall.html

The port size is dependant on valve size. A mega-phone shaped port is the worst thing you can do.

I may get custom headers when I get carbs. Not so much to make them bigger but to blend were they connect, cos they join up pretty s*** atm. The 2 bros are 28mm thick, .75mm steel make them 26.5mm wide on the inside. I feel that is sufficient for now.
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Old March 13th, 2013, 10:53 PM   #74
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I think we shold change the name of this thread to ninjette engine builds or high performace mods or something....anyone?
Organizing the engine build threads would be nice. We should agree on a thread title. Like "(you) engine build thread". Then each engine could have coverage with dyno charts race results at the end
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Old March 14th, 2013, 12:53 AM   #75
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I've been thinking about starting one when i get crank back since this thread had very little do to with Beet cams anymore.

I will document everything I'm doing, photo's, dyno results etc.
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Old March 14th, 2013, 01:07 AM   #76
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if your looking for plasti-gauge or flexi-guage. This is what it looks like. Not sure if it is the correct colour. Says 0.025 to 0.076 mm. I was given it for free by a builder.
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Old March 14th, 2013, 04:15 AM   #77
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That's the final test. I measure the crank the the bearing. Then do some math. Then double check the math. Then do plastiguage.
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Old March 14th, 2013, 04:53 AM   #78
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How do I get the bearings out of the crank case?
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Old March 14th, 2013, 06:45 AM   #79
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After removing the crank they will sorta pop out.
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Old March 14th, 2013, 07:28 AM   #80
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wow that was weird. I thought it was going to be so much more complicated than that.

This bearing has some serious pitting for only 6000 miles. Both top and bottom. Bottom is worse.
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