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Old December 19th, 2020, 09:46 PM   #1
defaultstivaper
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New to motorcycles, Got 08 Ninja 250, Very hard to Cold start

Hey all, I am new to the world of bikes and have been craving more since I've started. I found a good deal on a red 08 250, w/ 2k miles. Bike checks out cosmetically and mechanically, and being familiar with car work, I performed basic maintenance on the bike, such as NGK iridium plugs, oil change + filter, bulbs, Berryman's chemtool b12, and fresh gas.

Long story short, the bike runs mint when fully warmed up, or on a a warm day. Unfortunately for me, I got the bike late November, and haven't had a real warm day to test it. When it's semi-warm (50f), it definitely starts easier than when its 30f or less. Today I installed plugs, and figured I should start it to make sure all is well. It was probably close to 28f, and the bike was outdoors and kept in an outdoor thin shed. After a few attempts I gave up.

When its cold, here are the exact symptoms:

-Put ignition to on, put gear in N, pull choke 75% or more. Bike fires up right away, RPMS hit close to 2k, bike dies seconds later.

-Repeat this process, but adjusting the idle control switch on the left side as I go. I usually turn it to the right to increase the idle. Everytime the bike catches, but RPMS drop to 0 and it dies within 1-3 seconds.

-After a few attempts, I find the right balance between the idle knob and choke, and it gets going. At this point I barely have to apply choke, and can turn off the choke within seconds and the bike won't stall.

I feel like my choke doesn't do anything. Maybe because my idle knob is set too high? Perhaps I should turn it lower and try with more choke? Or am I wasting my time as starting a Ninja after 3 days in 20-30f weather is always going to be a PITA?

**If you're just reading this now I made a video of my exact symptoms. You will see with a little tinkering, the bike fires up at the end, after multiple attempts. 100% weather related. If it's warm, it fires up almost immediately, if not first try**

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCy3kGuRoEo

Last futzed with by defaultstivaper; December 22nd, 2020 at 01:25 PM.
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Old December 20th, 2020, 12:02 AM   #2
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Pull the “choke on full and fire it up”
Get the bike up to temp, and turn the “choke” of
Then adjust the idle control to set idle.

The “choke” is an enrichment circuit, so it adds fuel rather than restricts air. If it’s really bad to start it may need the carbs cleaned. But you shouldn’t be Messi g with idle settings and choke at the same time. Only set idle when hot.

I have ridden my ninja in temps down to single digits and it starts up on choke.
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Old December 20th, 2020, 06:18 AM   #3
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Reality....12 year old and just 2k miles, this bike has done a *lot* of sitting.

Varnished carb circuits are very likely. A carb service may be called for, petcock internal inspection as well.

When spring riding season hits....expose it to some "Italian tuneups" ....perhaps the Berrymans will clear it. If not, you'll be exploring the inner workings of your little Keihin carpotatoes.

You in New York? Upstate? Downstate?

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Old December 20th, 2020, 08:53 AM   #4
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Old December 20th, 2020, 09:58 AM   #5
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Greetings and Salutations Dan !!!


Cold start issue has to do with your carbs needing thorough restoration, not just "cleaning". They'll need lots mechanical scrubbing with brushes, ultrasonic soaking and micro soda-blasting. Search here for "clean carbs ducatiman" for threads with photos.
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Old December 20th, 2020, 11:03 AM   #6
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Old December 20th, 2020, 12:30 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatiman View Post
Reality....12 year old and just 2k miles, this bike has done a *lot* of sitting.

Varnished carb circuits are very likely. A carb service may be called for, petcock internal inspection as well.

When spring riding season hits....expose it to some "Italian tuneups" ....perhaps the Berrymans will clear it. If not, you'll be exploring the inner workings of your little Keihin carpotatoes.

You in New York? Upstate? Downstate?

And welcome to Ninjette too!
Thanks, I'm on Long Island. I was hoping I could get away with not taking the carbs apart as everything else on the bike looked mint, including the old plugs. I figured it was just running lean, and not getting enough gas on cold starts.

For the record, when I say cold starts, I mean COLD. Not you let it sit overnight in 70F temps and it gave you issues the next morning. I only experience these hard to start issues when it sat for multiple days in 30F weather. So that being said, part of this problem has to be normal, right? After all, it's a carbureted vehicle tuned for warmer weather.
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Old December 20th, 2020, 12:37 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatiman View Post

You in New York? Upstate? Downstate?

And welcome to Ninjette too!
I just saw in your profile you're on the Island too, as a matter of fact 20 min away. I live in Northport, work in Commack. Maybe when it's somewhat nicer out I can pay you to tune up the carb.
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Old December 20th, 2020, 12:54 PM   #9
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Maybe when it's somewhat nicer out I can pay you to tune up the carb.
They won't be just tuned up, they'll be like they just came from the factory, with everything clean and any parts replaced that need it. I normally do all my own work, but was very glad I asked Gordon to rebuild my 250 carbs.

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Old December 20th, 2020, 01:25 PM   #10
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@Triple Jim as always, thanks for kind words.

@defaultstivaper at your service when and if you deem necessary.
All 250 carb refurb "consumables" stocked, salvage spares too. Pro equipment, blah blah.

Quite familiar with N'port, part of my North Shore local route.

Currently on the bench 36 year old Honda Gold Wing (4 cylinder) Keihin carbs. Different, unique and challenging.

There is a separate start circuit, fixed jets (non removable factory pressed) with v tiny orifices. Its possible time has taken its toll and blocked 1 or 2 to some degree.
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Old December 20th, 2020, 04:23 PM   #11
defaultstivaper
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Gordon feel free to send me your contact info, Facebook, whatever works. Otherwise I will use the email I see on your website when the time comes.

I know a lot of you are quick to accuse the carbs of being the culprit, and this may be the case. I made a video to better explain my symptoms, and how I got it started tonight. If anyone has a few minutes please check this out and let me know if they think it could be anything else.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70_z...aF8kbWV4AaABAg
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Old December 20th, 2020, 05:15 PM   #12
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Once warmed up, bike idles fine? Only three things needed for combustion: spark, air and petrol. Spark is fixed by crank-rotation. If you're getting combustion, spark is working. Air is dictated by throttle-plate opening. Should set only once and leave it. Petrol-flow is controlled by numerous carb circuits. Since you have to fiddle with it so much, sure sign carb needs deep restoration.

I got my 2009 street bike with 8000-miles on clocks. It had been sitting for a year after owner crashed in parking-lot and decided to hang things up for good. Was saving it for his son, but kid wanted Camaro when he turned 16.

Bike was difficult to start. Especially when cold and I'd have to fiddle with all the levers and knobs like yours. I thought I "cleaned" it well enough with spray carb-cleaner, hah! I had done maybe 5% of job. Your carbs need more thorough cleaning.

Many great mechanics. Who can remove engine in less than 15-minutes. Who can rebuilt engines in less than day. Have had to remove their carbs 4-5x for ever deeper cleaning before their bikes ran great. I suggest you do it 1st time around. Well, 2nd time now.

Here's some photos of what's involved. Need to scrub out all hidden secret passages in carb-body.
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...87#post1267487

Some related threads:

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=330960
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=322846
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=321223
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=317977
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=317810
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=316395
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=315193

In end, I sent carbs off to ducatiman for refurb and restoration. I didn't want to buy all equipment needed (scrub-brushes, ultrasonic cleaner and micro soda-blaster). Or spend decades learning how to restore carbs back to factory-fresh clean.

Carbs came back perfect and bike ran like brand-new like off showroom floor! Also send in petcock, it most likely needs rebuild. Last January was perfect test as it had gotten down to 27F. I wanted to go for ride before heading off to Hong Kong for 3-week vacation. Just pulled choke to full, didn't touch throttle or anything and pushed start-button. >VRROOMM!< It started on first crank and settled down to smooth idle. Was ready to ride by time I got helmet and heated-gloves on.
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Old December 20th, 2020, 05:17 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defaultstivaper View Post
If anyone has a few minutes please check this out and let me know if they think it could be anything else.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70_z...aF8kbWV4AaABAg
I got a chuckle. I expected to see a video that demonstrated the starting problem, but I actually watched one that shows a 250 idling fine for about 5 minutes.
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Old December 20th, 2020, 05:27 PM   #14
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Quote:
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I got a chuckle. I expected to see a video that demonstrated the starting problem, but I actually watched one that shows a 250 idling fine for about 5 minutes.
I know, I will post another of the starting issue soon. I planned to do it, and it fired up first try after waiting, go figure. That’s why I made this video to explain the symptoms and show despite the cold starts issues, it runs smoothly
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Old December 20th, 2020, 05:28 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Once warmed up, bike idles fine? Only three things needed for combustion: spark, air and petrol. Spark is fixed by crank-rotation. If you're getting combustion, spark is working. Air is dictated by throttle-plate opening. Should set only once and leave it. Petrol-flow is controlled by numerous carb circuits. Since you have to fiddle with it so much, sure sign carb needs deep restoration.

I got my 2009 street bike with 8000-miles on clocks. It had been sitting for a year after owner crashed in parking-lot and decided to hang things up for good. Was saving it for his son, but kid wanted Camaro when he turned 16.

Bike was difficult to start. Especially when cold and I'd have to fiddle with all the levers and knobs like yours. I thought I "cleaned" it well enough with spray carb-cleaner, hah! I had done maybe 5% of job. Your carbs need more thorough cleaning.

Many great mechanics. Who can remove engine in less than 15-minutes. Who can rebuilt engines in less than day. Have had to remove their carbs 4-5x for ever deeper cleaning before their bikes ran great. I suggest you do it 1st time around. Well, 2nd time now.

Here's some photos of what's involved. Need to scrub out all hidden secret passages in carb-body.
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...87#post1267487

Some related threads:

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=330960
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=322846
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=321223
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=317977
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=317810
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=316395
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=315193

In end, I sent carbs off to ducatiman for refurb and restoration. I didn't want to buy all equipment needed (scrub-brushes, ultrasonic cleaner and micro soda-blaster). Or spend decades learning how to restore carbs back to factory-fresh clean.

Carbs came back perfect and bike ran like brand-new like off showroom floor! Also send in petcock, it most likely needs rebuild. Last January was perfect test as it had gotten down to 27F. I wanted to go for ride before heading off to Hong Kong for 3-week vacation. Just pulled choke to full, didn't touch throttle or anything and pushed start-button. >VRROOMM!< It started on first crank and settled down to smooth idle. Was ready to ride by time I got helmet and heated-gloves on.
Thanks for the detailed reply. Despite your cold start issues, your engine still ran great when warm? That’s what’s throwing me off. Considering ducatiman is local, there is a high probability I will pay to have it done right. In the meantime, if I decide to use carb cleaner, what’s the best way to spray? Pop the air filter cover and spray it into the intake when the bike is idling?
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Old December 20th, 2020, 05:41 PM   #16
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yes, but there are multiple circuits inside a carb. It's not magical black box:

- start circuit
- idle circuit
- pilot circuit
- main circuit

One or more can be clogged and one or more can be clear at same time. Most common issue is start circuit since it has smallest jets and passages.

forget spray cleaners, they no longer work with removal of chlorinated compounds. Don't waste your time. If you're gonna do anything with carbs, completely disassemble them down to every last component, nut, bolt, springs and do thorough scrubbing. Nothing short of that will do anything to improve your situation.

After spraying, you'll want to scrub all these fuel-circuits to clean them. Then soak in ultrasonic cleaner, then micro soda blast.


that's just beginning. You'll want to replace all rubber parts: O-rings, float/valves, float-bowl seals. Adjust float-heights, sync carbs, etc.

here's quick intro to carbs: https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=355132
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Old December 21st, 2020, 05:20 PM   #17
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@DannoXYZ thanks for the detailed info. Like I said, once it gets a little nicer out I will likely pay to have the job done right. In the meantime, here is a video of the exact issue. If you watch until the end, I get it started by making 1 simple change, go figure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCy3kGuRoEo
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Old December 21st, 2020, 05:43 PM   #18
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It didn't have enough enrichment. You need to move the lever all the way for starting. Then when it's running you can back it off some. I didn't see anything to make me think something is wrong other than that.
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Old December 21st, 2020, 06:58 PM   #19
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Yes, if you look at movement inside carbs, it's non-linear with choke-lever movement. Nothing happens until last 5mm of travel anyway. ALWAYS pull it all way back 100%. Then after bike starts, gradually lower lever to keep RPMs around 3-4k. Then take off and turn off choke couple blocks down road (depending upon how cold it is).

Having to adjust idle-speed knob means your carbs aren't adjusted properly. When fully warmed-up, turn off choke (push lever forward all way) and adjust idle-knob so engine idles at 1500rpms... AND LEAVE IT THERE. There's absolutely no need to adjust idle-knob to start bike. Always use 100% FULL-CHOKE to start. Review this thread: https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=350871

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; December 21st, 2020 at 10:48 PM.
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Old December 21st, 2020, 07:30 PM   #20
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When fully warmed-up, close choke and adjust idle-knob so engine idles at 1500rpms...
All well said, except "close choke" is confusing. It really should be "fully turn off enricher". If you want to use the choke analogy, then it would be "open choke".

defaultstivaper, the enricher system lifts a poppet valve type of plunger off a hole. When this happens, fuel and air are added to the mixture. Partially opening it is likely to allow more fuel than air into the mix. That's probably why you found that raising the idle speed helped. If you fully open the enricher, that should take care of the need to raise the idle speed automatically.

Correct adjustment of the enricher cable is needed. It should seat and not leak when off, but without so much slack that it doesn't fully open. I'm sure the manual tells how to adjust it, but if you look carefully you should be able to adjust it so that there is only a small amount of cable slack when it's fully off.
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Old December 21st, 2020, 08:43 PM   #21
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Correct adjustment of the enricher cable is needed. It should seat and not leak when off, but without so much slack that it doesn't fully open. I'm sure the manual tells how to adjust it, but if you look carefully you should be able to adjust it so that there is only a small amount of cable slack when it's fully off.
I think you're right Jim. Maybe that's why the choke barely has any effect, on or off. Or why it's so hard to cold start, bc the "enrichener" isn't fully engaging. The choke lever feels weird when I pull it back, like the first 30% has no resistance, and then the remaining 70% feels like a choke should.

Check this vid out, I have the exact same choke symptoms, and this guy said it caused cold starting issues too. Going to try adjusting tomorrow!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkIP1tb317s
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Old December 21st, 2020, 08:59 PM   #22
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That's correct behavior as most of initial travel doesn't do anything. Trace choke cable down to where it connects to carb and see its action. Only last 10mm of lever-travel actually moves choke mechanism.

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Old December 21st, 2020, 10:06 PM   #23
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Ok, here's what you can do to ensure that choke-cable is operating optimally. Do not skip steps and do not do anything not shown here. Remove side-panels, seat, tank to have full-access to carbs from above (no need to detach carbs from head or airbox, I just did for better photos).

REALLY, REALLY look over this guide, take your own photos and videos to fully understand how it all works and goes together before taking apart anything!. If you don't understand how it works before taking apart, you may not get it back together. There's also possibility someone previously had tried to do this operation and failed, leaving choke-cable only 1/2 re-installed. This guide will also remedy that if indeed your choke-cable is not properly installed.


1. REMOVE CHOKE-CABLE FROM CARB

a. find choke-cable on top of carbs. Pull choke-lever at left-handlevar all way back and push forward all way several times to see how mechanism works.

Choke lever all way forward


Choke lever all way back

Note cable-housing stop is not adjustable. Ok, stop playing around and push choke-lever all way forward before next step

b. pull cable-housing out from cable-stop and slide inner-wire towards back and out slot


c. rotate cable-housing vertically underneath cable-end


d. slide cable-end barrel forward out of choke-plunger



2. LUBRICATE CABLE

a. disassemble control-housing and extract choke-cable end, make note of how all the pieces fit


b. drip oil down inner wire while pushing it in & out of cable-housing


c. when oil drips out lower end of inner-wire, cable should be fully lubricated


d. reassemble control-housing on handlebar, put a little silicone-grease between rubbing parts. Push choke-lever all the way forward (off). Note you should have about 30mm of inner wire showing at carb end.


3. CHECK CHOKE-MECHANISM

a. squeeze choke-plunger towards cable-stop, and release


b. lubricate choke-plunger shaft with silicone-oil if it's stiff and doesn't squeeze and retract easily



4. RE-INSTALL CHOKE-CABLE

a. align cable-end and cable vertically under choke-plunger


b. slide cable-end barrel towards back into choke-plunger


c. rotate cable-housing towards cable-stop


d. lift cable-housing over and towards back of cable-stop


e. pull cable-housing to compress choke-plunger and slide inner-wire through slot at back of cable-stop


f. release cable-housing, choke-plunger retracts and pulls cable-housing into cable-stop


g. pull choke-lever on handlebar, you should see about 13mm of travel at cable-end. Push choke-lever forward and choke-plunger should retract all way within 1st 1/2 of lever-travel.




This last part is critical test of whether your choke-cable is lubricated and installed properly. If you're not able to fully-pull lever all way to back without excess friction (or push it all way forward easily) then lever and cable needs lubrication. If cable-housing is not fully inserted into stop (step e-f), you may see cable-housing move when pulling lever all way back, but it won't move choke-plunger on carb (cable-housing itself will move back & forth).
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Old December 22nd, 2020, 07:25 AM   #24
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@DannoXYZ thanks for that guide. I was really hoping to get away without removing the gas tank, but just the side fairings. O well :\
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Old December 22nd, 2020, 07:30 AM   #25
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MOTM - Nov '18, Mar '17
@defaultstivaper
If and when you choose, when the time comes, "choke plunger" (topmost items in the pic) maintenance integral within my 250 service. They are not immune from infiltration of varnish deposits. Removal obviously also allows full service access to their inner circuit clearing.
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Old December 22nd, 2020, 10:44 AM   #26
DannoXYZ
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@DannoXYZ thanks for that guide. I was really hoping to get away without removing the gas tank, but just the side fairings. O well :\
Might not need any work at all. How's it start with 100% pull on choke-lever? If it starts with full-choke, no adjustment needed.

You can also try adjusting cable by extending adjuster first. This lengthens outside housing and makes inner-wire tighter. Should pull sooner and more on choke. However, it may go to other extreme and not let you release all way.
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Old December 22nd, 2020, 01:09 PM   #27
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Dan, I've actually had my 250 act like that, but it's when it's been sitting for a while and the float bowls are low. Until the petcock opens long enough to refill them it wants to sputter and not quite start fully. I think your newgen petcock has a "prime" position so you can fill the bowls before you try to start the engine. Mine does not. It's Off, On, and Reserve. I may put a Tee in the vacuum line with a short hose and a plug so I can suck on it for a few seconds when I need to fill the bowls.

Anyway, you might try using the "prime" position for ten or 15 seconds before you try to start it, and see if that makes any difference. If it does, it may indicate that something is causing the fuel level to be low in the float bowls, even when it hasn't been parked very long.
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Old December 22nd, 2020, 01:19 PM   #28
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Thanks, I will try the choke adjustment and look into switching the petcock to prime temporarily. I did notice on my bike is has only 2 positions, ON and PRIME. No off or in between. After yesterday, I let it sit on the charger for 4-5 hours, until the light was green. Today was warmer, about 45F. Warm for winter at least. Decided to take it to work, and of course, w slight choke, it fired up first try. I guess I'm getting somewhere. I did use some Berryman's b12 in the tank, so maybe that helped, coupled w the charged battery.
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Old December 22nd, 2020, 01:42 PM   #29
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Dan, I've actually had my 250 act like that, but it's when it's been sitting for a while and the float bowls are low. Until the petcock opens long enough to refill them it wants to sputter and not quite start fully. I think your newgen petcock has a "prime" position so you can fill the bowls before you try to start the engine. Mine does not. It's Off, On, and Reserve. I may put a Tee in the vacuum line with a short hose and a plug so I can suck on it for a few seconds when I need to fill the bowls.

Anyway, you might try using the "prime" position for ten or 15 seconds before you try to start it, and see if that makes any difference. If it does, it may indicate that something is causing the fuel level to be low in the float bowls, even when it hasn't been parked very long.
Ah yes, I've have had petcock issues that required manually priming. Saves 5-10 seconds of cranking in my case. Turned out petcock needed rebuild as diaphragm wasn't sealing and opening fully.
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Old February 8th, 2021, 05:24 PM   #30
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So incase anyone is interested on a follow up, I'm almost 100% positive my issues were being caused because it was simply "too cold" - as in below freezing. It's my first bike, I get eager, and want to fire it up despite the weather. Since it's the middle of winter, most of these times it wouldn't start is because it was 32F or below.

Little to my knowledge, I wasn't aware that the slight condensation in the fuel lines, likely from the bike sitting for a while, or a non-fully-filled fuel tank would freeze when it hit these temps. Therefore, choke barely made a difference, and the only way to get it started was to increase the idle knob or let it warm up for a bit.

So the following weeks I tested her in above freezing temps, but still cold. 40 degrees, fired up first try. 45 degrees, first try. Anything higher, starts beautifully. So I am going to chalk it up to that. Thanks for the advice, my bike still runs better now w all the suggestions.
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Old February 8th, 2021, 07:10 PM   #31
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I'd suggest resisting the temptation of arbitrarily starting in cold weather. Condensation builds within repeated heat/cold cycles...the bike (specifically engine oil) never truly reaches full operating temps unless ridden....and never burns off that condensation. I choose to let mine set during winter break.
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