Changed out spark plugs after winter. Give gas and dies.

[Twitchy Stitch]

UPDATE! 2/27/15

Alright so It's up and running fine now. I went ahead and drained the carbs and put in new gas with some seafoam. The throttle response is good but the idle is off. I took it for a test ride and when I would let go of the throttle the idle would go back down to 3-3.5k but it would go back down slower than I would expect. If I adjust the idle to 2-2.5k rpm it will threaten to stall at times.

Another issue...it accelerates slowly and won't go past 53 mph...in first and second gear the rpms would go up as expected but in 4th and 5th the rpms would take forever to go up to where I want them. I'm riding the bike fine and know what I'm doing so i'm thinking it's a mechanical issue. Should I go for the tune up? Or is this still a carburetor issue?

The stuff below is fixed.





Well I changed out a spark plug last night and wasn't able to change out the other one due to a stripped screw on my front right fairing. I managed to replace the left spark plug by lifting up the gas tank as much as I could without breaking the fairing. And I figured that would be enough for now until I get my power tool back to drill that sucker out so I could replace the other plug.

Well I figured because I have one brand new NGK spark plug in there it should run alright enough to warm the engine up a bit. But it took me about 15 seconds of pressing the start button constantly to get it running and I had to keep pressing it for about 3 seconds more after it started kicking for it to stay at 3k rpm.

And after that every time I would give it gas or choke it would die out on me. Now I'm not sure if that's necessarily a spark plug issue because it dies out the second I give it gas and it already has one brand new plug in there or there's a problem with the jet needle (What I heard somewhere else). I checked my overflow and fuel cables and they're where they need to be.

I'm gonna put that other plug in tonight after I get that screw out and see how it is but I'm not sure if that's the only issue. My bike has been sitting for about a month and a half and I live in Florida so it didn't get too cold down here, only a few nights. It's a 2007 model with that nice sexy shade of blue.

It wasn't running at all before I changed the plug and from my diagnosis from when it was running I figured it to be the spark plugs (obviously looks like it hehe). My throttle would be unresponsive and a lot of times my engine would bog down after hitting the accelerator hard and would stall out if I didn't ease up. Before it stopped running it wouldn't go past 50 miles an hour.

Also Another thing I noted is that there's smoke coming from the exhaust but not too much, I had it running for about 30 seconds and I could see some smoke in the garage. The odor was kind of sweet smelling and it didn't smell like gasoline so I think that's good. The smoke wasn't black and from what I could tell it looked white (could be blue but I don't think it's coolant).

Anyways here's a few pictures of the spark plug I pulled for all you guys that know how to read spark plugs like the back of your hand. (The rice cooker was the best background I could find LOL). Thanks in advance for your help.

[Brother Michigan]

This may be a silly question, but was it running correctly before you replaced the spark plug?

[Twitchy Stitch]

Them some nice finger tips boy

[Twitchy Stitch]

Originally Posted by Brother Michigan

This may be a silly question, but was it running correctly before you replaced the spark plug?

My bad I meant to add that info in. It wasn't running at all and from my diagnosis from when it was running I figured it to be the spark plugs (obviously looks like it hehe). My throttle would be unresponsive and a lot of times my engine would bog down after hitting the accelerator hard and would stall out if I didn't ease up. Before it stopped running it wouldn't go past 50 miles an hour.

[allanoue]

How long did it sit?

[Twitchy Stitch]

Originally Posted by allanoue

How long did it sit?

About a month and a half.

[allanoue]

Did you do any winterizing before letting it sit?

[Twitchy Stitch]

Originally Posted by allanoue

Did you do any winterizing before letting it sit?

None at all. Didn't figure I would need it considering I live in Florida and it doesn't necessarily stay cold around where I live. We get some cold winds but nothing else.

[kdogg2077]

Could the gas have gone bad?

[allanoue]

It is not the cold. It is the gas sitting in your carbs that is bad. Run seafoam or your favored gas stabilizer though your system, let it sit over night and run it again. If it still runs like crap, give your carbs a good cleaning.

Edit:

Mix the seafoam in your tank in the amount that the directions say on the bottel.

[Twitchy Stitch]

Originally Posted by allanoue

It is not the cold. It is the gas sitting in your carbs that is bad. Run seafoam or your favored gas stabilizer though your system, let it sit over night and run it again. If it still runs like crap, give your carbs a good cleaning.

Edit:

Mix the seafoam in your tank in the amount that the directions say on the bottel.

Done deal. Had some leftover seafoam and put in about an 8th of the bottle mixed in with the quarter full tank of gas in there. I'll keep you guys updated, thanks for the suggestion.

If you don't mind answering, what makes you say that it's bad gas in the carbs? Does what I described sound like a spark plug issue and that's why it can't be the spark plugs?

[allanoue]

from
http://www.dansmc.com/gas.htm

Gas is neat stuff, but it has one bad habit (other than burning you up)... it rots, decomposes, turns into varnish and goos up your carburetors. A small amount of gas, like a pint, can go bad in as little as two weeks. A large amount, say 20 gallons, can stay good for a year or so.

This means that if you let the gas sit in a carburetor for any length of time you could be in for an expensive repair. Cleaning those carbs, on a four cylinder engine is a real pain.

[Hero Danny]

Originally Posted by Twitchy Stitch

If you don't mind answering, what makes you say that it's bad gas in the carbs? Does what I described sound like a spark plug issue and that's why it can't be the spark plugs?

It's definitely/mostlikely carb related. Makes me think that because you said when you turn the throttle it dies. allanoue is just having you check the easiest things to check first.

[flitecontrol]

The plug you pictured appears to be an iridium plug and in good shape. They give a very consistent, hot spark and are usually good for 100,000 or more, so I doubt it's a spark plug issue. If the new plugs aren't iridium, I'd put the old plugs back in and keep the others for spares. NGK maintains that the coating on their spark plug threads eliminates corrosion between the steel threads and aluminum head, but I still put a little anti-seize on the threads just in case. Just don't get it on the contacts as it can interfere with spark transmission. Use a torque wrench when installing the plugs to help avoid pulling the threads. Too many plugs are over tightened, which can damage the threads in the head.

Do you top off the tank after each ride to minimize condensation in the tank? Have you looked in the tank recently to see if any rust is forming? Ethanol fuel tends to attract water if it just sits in the tank. I like to add an inline fuel filter to reduce the possibility of any crud in the tank from getting to the carbs. This is what I use, and you can usually get them cheaper at an auto parts store. http://www.amazon.com/Visu-Filter-In...068296&sr=1-14

Just to eliminate the possibility of bad gas, I'd drain the tank and carbs and replace it with fresh gas. The old gas can be put in a cage tank if it isn't full of rust. Non ethanol gas doesn't go bad as quickly as ethanol containing gas, but it can be hard to find in some locations. Sea Foam is a good fuel stabilizer and light duty cleaner, but it doesn't make gas that has gone bad good again.

[Twitchy Stitch]

Originally Posted by flitecontrol

The plug you pictured appears to be an iridium plug and in good shape. They give a very consistent, hot spark and are usually good for 100,000 or more, so I doubt it's a spark plug issue. If the new plugs aren't iridium, I'd put the old plugs back in and keep the others for spares. NGK maintains that the coating on their spark plug threads eliminates corrosion between the steel threads and aluminum head, but I still put a little anti-seize on the threads just in case. Just don't get it on the contacts as it can interfere with spark transmission. Use a torque wrench when installing the plugs to help avoid pulling the threads. Too many plugs are over tightened, which can damage the threads in the head.

Do you top off the tank after each ride to minimize condensation in the tank? Have you looked in the tank recently to see if any rust is forming? Ethanol fuel tends to attract water if it just sits in the tank. I like to add an inline fuel filter to reduce the possibility of any crud in the tank from getting to the carbs. This is what I use, and you can usually get them cheaper at an auto parts store. http://www.amazon.com/Visu-Filter-In...068296&sr=1-14

Just to eliminate the possibility of bad gas, I'd drain the tank and carbs and replace it with fresh gas. The old gas can be put in a cage tank if it isn't full of rust. Non ethanol gas doesn't go bad as quickly as ethanol containing gas, but it can be hard to find in some locations. Sea Foam is a good fuel stabilizer and light duty cleaner, but it doesn't make gas that has gone bad good again.

I took a good look in the gas tank and didn't see any rust. There were a few times I had to leave it in the rain but even so didn't have an issue. I'm not sure if it would be dirty carbs either because every time I twist the throttle to give it more gas the rpms would drop heavily.
Wouldn't clogged up carbs do the opposite? I'm just asking because I'm clueless to how this would work.

It seems to idle fine on start up (even though before when I was riding the bike the idle would slightly go up and down a little). I usually left the idle at around 2.5-3k rpm because when my bike would idle at 2 or 1.5 it would drop lower and threaten to stall but that was when I first purchased the bike and it seemed to level out later.

I'll go ahead and drain out the carbs and gas tank and put in some fresh juice to see if that helps.

[Twitchy Stitch]

Originally Posted by Hero Danny

It's definitely/mostlikely carb related. Makes me think that because you said when you turn the throttle it dies. allanoue is just having you check the easiest things to check first.

Yeah. I just watched a video of what a dirty carburetor sounds like and it seems pretty similar to my situation. I think I'll just have to go ahead and clean the carbs anyway just to be safe(first time!!!). Oh lord I hope I don't **** something up.

[ninjunk]

i wouldn't bother draining the gas tank just yet, but definitely drain the carbs out.

if the gas tank is low you can probably just backfill with fresh gas and a buttload of sea-foam and call it a day.

its tough to say from the picture but the plug gap looks huge on that thing. did you re-gap the ones you put in?

if you can get it to idle, just let it idle for like 10, 15 minutes, enough to get it real hot and kick on the fans. then see if you cant take the choke off and rev it up. You might be able to give it the old ''Italian tune up" get it real hot and rev it up to blow the **** out of the carbs.

[Hero Danny]

Originally Posted by ninjunk

i wouldn't bother draining the gas tank just yet, but definitely drain the carbs out.

if the gas tank is low you can probably just backfill with fresh gas and a buttload of sea-foam and call it a day.

its tough to say from the picture but the plug gap looks huge on that thing. did you re-gap the ones you put in?

if you can get it to idle, just let it idle for like 10, 15 minutes, enough to get it real hot and kick on the fans. then see if you cant take the choke off and rev it up. You might be able to give it the old ''Italian tune up" get it real hot and rev it up to blow the **** out of the carbs.

Lmao! Italian tune-up had me

[Twitchy Stitch]

Alright another question before I attempt to take out the carburetor. Do I have to empty out my gas tank completely when I take it off? The hose on the back of the fuel tank not connected to the petcock is my concern. If I take that off without draining out the gas will it spill out or is there some way I can close that hole off? (I was just thinking about not disconnecting that fuel line and sitting my gas tank on the other end of the seat but I think that might get in the way).

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by Twitchy Stitch

Alright another question before I attempt to take out the carburetor. Do I have to empty out my gas tank completely when I take it off? The hose on the back of the fuel tank not connected to the petcock is my concern. If I take that off without draining out the gas will it spill out or is there some way I can close that hole off? (I was just thinking about not disconnecting that fuel line and sitting my gas tank on the other end of the seat but I think that might get in the way).

foresepts

[flitecontrol]

Are you using choke on start up? If the engine doesn't run properly after warm up, but will with choke, that's usually a sign of dirty carbs. I wouldn't jump into the carbs just yet unless you have the symptoms described above. As others have said, eliminate the simple things first. It bogging down with throttle could be a carb issue, but it could also be a dirty air filter not providing enough air to the increased fuel going to the carb. If the filter is dirty, replace it.

It's pretty easy to drain the tank if you decide to do that. An empty, or nearly so tank is easier to manipulate than a full one.Turn the petcock to off, remove the hose going to the carbs, and slide them inside a larger, clean hose whose other end goes to a container sitting on the ground that is large enough to hold all the gas in the tank. Turn the petcock to reserve and go read a book, have a cold beverage, or whatever. All the gas in the tank will eventually run into the container. Be sure to turn the petcock to off when you're finished, and reconnect the hose to the carbs. When you drain the carbs, run the fuel into a clean clear container. If it looks rusty or has visible contaminants in it, they have probably made their way to the carbs and they will need to be cleaned. Another good reason for installing an inline filter.

I believe what you are describing as the tube on the tank that doesn't go to the carbs is a vent tube. The only time it should have gas in it is if you overfill the tank in warm weather and the fuel expands in the tank enough to run out that tube. Or the bike laying on its side can also do it. There is no need to close this tube unless you have dirt daubers small enough to nest inside the tube, or bugs that may crawl in there. In that case, just stick a sheet metal screw in the end or use a nail to push a small rag in the hole.

Draining the carbs for storage is never a bad idea. If it will be stored for six months or so, fogging the cylinders prevents rust developing in the cylinders.

[Twitchy Stitch]

Originally Posted by flitecontrol

Are you using choke on start up? If the engine doesn't run properly after warm up, but will with choke, that's usually a sign of dirty carbs. I wouldn't jump into the carbs just yet unless you have the symptoms described above. As others have said, eliminate the simple things first. It bogging down with throttle could be a carb issue, but it could also be a dirty air filter not providing enough air to the increased fuel going to the carb. If the filter is dirty, replace it.

It's pretty easy to drain the tank if you decide to do that. An empty, or nearly so tank is easier to manipulate than a full one.Turn the petcock to off, remove the hose going to the carbs, and slide them inside a larger, clean hose whose other end goes to a container sitting on the ground that is large enough to hold all the gas in the tank. Turn the petcock to reserve and go read a book, have a cold beverage, or whatever. All the gas in the tank will eventually run into the container. Be sure to turn the petcock to off when you're finished, and reconnect the hose to the carbs. When you drain the carbs, run the fuel into a clean clear container. If it looks rusty or has visible contaminants in it, they have probably made their way to the carbs and they will need to be cleaned. Another good reason for installing an inline filter.

I believe what you are describing as the tube on the tank that doesn't go to the carbs is a vent tube. The only time it should have gas in it is if you overfill the tank in warm weather and the fuel expands in the tank enough to run out that tube. Or the bike laying on its side can also do it. There is no need to close this tube unless you have dirt daubers small enough to nest inside the tube, or bugs that may crawl in there. In that case, just stick a sheet metal screw in the end or use a nail to push a small rag in the hole.

Draining the carbs for storage is never a bad idea. If it will be stored for six months or so, fogging the cylinders prevents rust developing in the cylinders.

Great info thanks . No these past few start ups while working on it I didn't need to use the choke (I left the choke on last night on accident) But I think it should be cleared out now. I left it running on idle for a few minutes. But what you're describing isn't the case so I think I'm in the clear there. I thought it could be the air filter and didn't really think I'd have to clean or replace it as much as I lube my chain (stupid me). So now I do think it is the air filter because it could be the air-fuel ratio. I haven't changed out the air filter since I bought it which was around 9 months ago

I'm going to go ahead and change out the air filter real fast before I do anything else and see if that does it. It needs to be changed out anyways...now I just gotta put the carburetor back in...

[Twitchy Stitch]

Yup. Took out the air filter and it is pure black.

[cuong-nutz]

pictures of this said black air filter LOL

[Twitchy Stitch]

Originally Posted by cuong-nutz

pictures of this said black air filter LOL

Not much light but I was quite literal when I said black. LOL

[ninjunk]

woah is that some kinda K&N thing? doesn't look like the stock filter i've seen.

[Twitchy Stitch]

Originally Posted by ninjunk

woah is that some kinda K&N thing? doesn't look like the stock filter i've seen.

Yup!

[Twitchy Stitch]

Alright. I cleaned the filter and put it back in and that's all done...but same **** happens so it might not be the air-fuel ratio. So that rules that out. Any clue as to what the issue is?

[Twitchy Stitch]

It took me a good 15 seconds to start it back up after I installed the air filter and it started running. For the first time after that every time I twisted the throttle it would bog down again and start to stall so I left it running at idle and it stalled out on it's own after about a minute without me doing anything. I tried starting it up again and it wouldn't start. I let it sit for about 5 minutes went back out and tried again and it started back up immediately. The throttle response was very good for about a minute then the engine started bogging down again and stalling when I would turn the throttle again. It stalled on it's own again after that but I saw a major difference in the throttle response and start up.

Those are the symptoms from after I installed the clean air filter.

[jkv45]

Did you completely drain the tank and floatbowls? I would get all of the gas out of there before going much further. Fill with fresh 87 (ethanol-free if possible) or the lowest octane you can get without ethanol and add 1 oz per gal of Techron Concentrate. Adding fresh gas on top of questionable gas won't provide you with any answers.

Look at the fuel from the carbs and see if you have any water or debris. If you drain it when it stop running you can tell if there's a significant amount of fuel in there. If very little comes out it will tell you there's a restriction somewhere. It's possible you have a blocked fuel filter or a petcock issue that's reducing fuel flow. It's also possible the jets are plugged or the carb diaphragms are damaged.

That filter looks questionable. How did you clean it? I would remove it completely (temporarily) and see if it changes the way it runs.

[Twitchy Stitch]

Alright so It's up and running fine now. I went ahead and drained the carbs and put in new gas with some seafoam. The throttle response is good but the idle is off. I took it for a test ride and when I would let go of the throttle the idle would go back down to 3-3.5k but it would go back down slower than I would expect. If I adjust the idle to 2-2.5k rpm it will threaten to stall at times.

Another issue...it accelerates slowly and won't go past 53 mph...in first and second gear the rpms would go up as expected but in 4th and 5th the rpms would take forever to go up to where I want them. I'm riding the bike fine and know what I'm doing so i'm thinking it's a mechanical issue. Should I go for the tune up? Or is this still a carburetor issue?

[Twitchy Stitch]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Did you completely drain the tank and floatbowls? I would get all of the gas out of there before going much further. Fill with fresh 87 (ethanol-free if possible) or the lowest octane you can get without ethanol and add 1 oz per gal of Techron Concentrate. Adding fresh gas on top of questionable gas won't provide you with any answers.

Look at the fuel from the carbs and see if you have any water or debris. If you drain it when it stop running you can tell if there's a significant amount of fuel in there. If very little comes out it will tell you there's a restriction somewhere. It's possible you have a blocked fuel filter or a petcock issue that's reducing fuel flow. It's also possible the jets are plugged or the carb diaphragms are damaged.

That filter looks questionable. How did you clean it? I would remove it completely (temporarily) and see if it changes the way it runs.

I posted an update after my recent response and it's running fine now. The acceleration and rpms are fine in first and second gear but 4th and 5th is slower. My bike has a hard time going past 53mph for some reason. The acceleration is slow in 4th and 5th gear as well. I completely drained the gas tank and the float bowls and I didn't see any debris but very little did come out of the float bowls but I think that's because I didn't give it enough time to fill completely after running it the first time. (I only got about 3 or 4 oz's out). I also went ahead and just got a new filter anyways just in case.

[jkv45]

Something is still not right. Did you pull the air filter and ride around the block?

You may have an intake/vacuum leak from the sound of it. Check the boots around the front side of the carb and where they attach to the engine. You can spray carb cleaner around them and listen for a change in RPMs.

There are a few possibilities with the carb that could make it do what it's doing now. If the slides are not lifting correctly or the main jet is partially plugged you will not get proper running as you open the throttle fully.

You could still have a fuel flow restriction also.

[Twitchy Stitch]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Something is still not right. Did you pull the air filter and ride around the block?

You may have an intake/vacuum leak from the sound of it. Check the boots around the front side of the carb and where they attach to the engine. You can spray carb cleaner around them and listen for a change in RPMs.

There are a few possibilities with the carb that could make it do what it's doing now. If the slides are not lifting correctly or the main jet is partially plugged you will not get proper running as you open the throttle fully.

You could still have a fuel flow restriction also.

No I haven't ridden around the block without the air filter. Should I do that? After I do that what should I be looking for?

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by Twitchy Stitch

No I haven't ridden around the block without the air filter. Should I do that? After I do that what should I be looking for?

I would, just to see if there's any difference in the way it runs - like if it will rev freely.

[Twitchy Stitch]

Originally Posted by jkv45

I would, just to see if there's any difference in the way it runs - like if it will rev freely.

Yessir. Just took it for a spin without the filter and couldn't get past one block without the engine bogging down and threatening to stall. There's white smoke that comes out of my left exhaust pipe btw. Sorry I didn't include that.

[flitecontrol]

White smoke is usually water, blue smoke is oil. If you aren't familiar with each, they can be confused. Have you done a dry and wet compression check?

[Twitchy Stitch]

Originally Posted by flitecontrol

White smoke is usually water, blue smoke is oil. If you aren't familiar with each, they can be confused. Have you done a dry and wet compression check?

None at all. And I wouldn't know how either haha.

[Hero Danny]

Ooh... sounds like this could be a bigger problem than I originally thought

[Twitchy Stitch]

Originally Posted by Hero Danny

Ooh... sounds like this could be a bigger problem than I originally thought

You're scaring me.