How far can I lean?

[oroboros]

How far can I lean my stock 501 tires? I read the thread on tires and pretty much want to install the Pirelli Sport Demons immediately. Since I am not terribly worried about high mileage commuter tires and I am more interested in practicing in the twisties I am O.K. with faster wear.

I guess what I really want to be doing is dragging my knee at the track.

I need the gear! Some one get me some of the those pre-scuffed knee sliders so I have street cred! Seriously though, I think I need to look at getting full gear. I feel weird not being "accomplished enough' to need it but at the same time why wouldnt I have the right gear? (also expensive $$)

Here are two pics from the same curve...about 10 minutes apart.

(i did purchase my pic from Darryl so I hop he is ok with the comp... its just a lo-res thumb)

This is a pic of my tire after running through the Gap. There is about 1/2" on the the edge. help!

killboy 2.jpg

killboy comp.jpg

http://www.killboy.com/

[Live2ride]

I've dragged pegs on the stock irc's plenty of times, but it just doesn't feel nearly as stable as pirelli's. I have had the irc tire slip a little while barely leaning and that made me hate them, after we changed to pirelli's I felt much more confident and never had the tire slide out again.

[kkim]

how far can you lean??? until you fall, silly.

[choneofakind]

Till you start scraping hard parts like your sidestand or muffler. You don't have a centerstand which helps

[kingkang204]

Correct me if I'm wrong But...
Essentially sitting in the middle of the bike uses more tire (In terms of the amount of the side).
Personal Experience; a Mini-Sweeper type turn suggested 25 mph awhile back I thought I was really pushing it at 70 (Full gear, don't flame me) but after reading the threads about body position (Thanks to Misti) I was able to take the corner at a faster speed but along with that I was using significantly less tire that I was using an "Improper" body position. Keep in mine I have no so amazing IRC's with like 6k on them (pretty much Irrelevant but I like to complain).
Anyway's moving your body will help with how much you can lean, <-- my experience. What I also found was if you hang off the bike with the ninja all you have to do is place your body weight into the corners(since its such a light bike) it'll just fall into the corner. If I can sometime I'll have my brother take a picture of me taking the corner.
Look at both the picture (Not trying to be offensive) but you're sitting in the middle of the bike while the guy on the r1 is half off his bike, it makes a difference.

One note, hanging off is somewhat scary in the beginning (I'm still trying to fight the feeling) but you really have to be loose, relax your body not only do you turn better but it's way more fun when you're not really tense.

[kkim]

yep, which is why "chicken strips" bear no correlation on how "great" one's cornering skills are.

[00NissanNinja]

Yeah like kingkang said, better positioning usually helps you take corners better.

[oroboros]

Thanks for your replies. No doubt I need to work on body positioning. This why I went through all the pictures from that day and compared myself to others. I just wanted to make sure that there was no real reason to be concerned about over taxing the stock tires at this point. Perhaps in the near future I can put up a "Before and After" pic

[oroboros]

Originally Posted by kkim

how far can you lean??? until you fall, silly.

I saw that one coming!

[rockNroll]

Both pictures show bad body positioning. Id say yours is a little better than his because it looks like he's all scrunched up and forward.

In my opinion, the most common bad thing I see with people carving canyons is that they're going too slow for the amount of "lean" and "hang off" they're trying to do. They look silly and crash a lot.

[oroboros]

Originally Posted by rockNroll

Both pictures show bad body positioning. Id say yours is a little better than his because it looks like he's all scrunched up and forward.

In my opinion, the most common bad thing I see with people carving canyons is that they're going too slow for the amount of "lean" and "hang off" they're trying to do. They look silly and crash a lot.

Interesting...

I guess pictures tell a thousand words but not the whole story. I was probably only going 35 - 40mph on this curve. This particular curve is more of a horseshoe shape.

Maybe in the second picture the guy is going 50mph or more. I don't know really?

[spooph]

Move your butt back, and your crack right on the edge of the seat, put your chin on the handlebar, and stick a knee out. On the left side you can scrape pegs without feelers before you run out of grip, with the appropriate pressures. Do you have your feelers removed? On the right side, you'll scrape stock muffler before you get to the pegs, but will scrape feelers before you scrape the exhaust. Maybe don't remove the feelers? Do you have an aftermarket exhaust? Yea, plenty of grip left in those tires...

But as many people have said, a great rider doesn't necessarily always use that grip. Erasing chicken strips doesn't necessarily make you faster... Best of luck!

[Misti]

Originally Posted by kingkang204

Correct me if I'm wrong But...
Essentially sitting in the middle of the bike uses more tire (In terms of the amount of the side).
Personal Experience; a Mini-Sweeper type turn suggested 25 mph awhile back I thought I was really pushing it at 70 (Full gear, don't flame me) but after reading the threads about body position (Thanks to Misti) I was able to take the corner at a faster speed but along with that I was using significantly less tire that I was using an "Improper" body position. Keep in mine I have no so amazing IRC's with like 6k on them (pretty much Irrelevant but I like to complain).
Anyway's moving your body will help with how much you can lean, <-- my experience. What I also found was if you hang off the bike with the ninja all you have to do is place your body weight into the corners(since its such a light bike) it'll just fall into the corner. If I can sometime I'll have my brother take a picture of me taking the corner.
Look at both the picture (Not trying to be offensive) but you're sitting in the middle of the bike while the guy on the r1 is half off his bike, it makes a difference.

One note, hanging off is somewhat scary in the beginning (I'm still trying to fight the feeling) but you really have to be loose, relax your body not only do you turn better but it's way more fun when you're not really tense.

Really good points here!! You must have a good teacher The amount you can lean is going to depend a lot on what you are doing with your body position. You could have the best tires out there but if you have poor body position you may run out of grip much faster than someone with good body position on crappy tires. Judging from the pics I say you need to sit back in the seat a little bit and work on leaning your upper body into the turn instead of having it remain over the center of the bike.

Originally Posted by kkim

yep, which is why "chicken strips" bear no correlation on how "great" one's cornering skills are.

Exactly

Cheers and ride safe!!

Misti

[oroboros]

Originally Posted by spooph

Move your butt back, and your crack right on the edge of the seat, put your chin on the handlebar, and stick a knee out. On the left side you can scrape pegs without feelers before you run out of grip, with the appropriate pressures. Do you have your feelers removed? On the right side, you'll scrape stock muffler before you get to the pegs, but will scrape feelers before you scrape the exhaust. Maybe don't remove the feelers? Do you have an aftermarket exhaust? Yea, plenty of grip left in those tires...

But as many people have said, a great rider doesn't necessarily always use that grip. Erasing chicken strips doesn't necessarily make you faster... Best of luck!

Spooph,

Thank you for exactly answering my question. My irrational question/concern was about the stock tires and the how far is O.K. to lean. I was not sure if the profile of the tire was a concern. I included a picture of the rear tire to show the profile and wear mark. I thought this might be relevant. As I suspect both the tire and bike will out perform me.

Originally Posted by Misti

Really good points here!! You must have a good teacher The amount you can lean is going to depend a lot on what you are doing with your body position. You could have the best tires out there but if you have poor body position you may run out of grip much faster than someone with good body position on crappy tires. Judging from the pics I say you need to sit back in the seat a little bit and work on leaning your upper body into the turn instead of having it remain over the center of the bike.



Exactly

Cheers and ride safe!!

Misti

Misti,

Thank you for your tips! I am hoping to have a before and after pic!

[Peanut_EOD]

Go to a track. The more track time you get in the less you will worry about pointless things like chicken strips and how you look in a picture on the dragons tail. Racetracks are a whole other experience. Once you get comfortable and develop some skills on the track you will realize that you can take most curves on public roads without hanging off. This is just my opinion, but anyone dragging knee on a public road is an asshole. Do a few track days and you will most likely find riding on the street more relaxing and enjoyable. Get that knee down and going fast thing out of your system on a track. Don't be an asshole or a squid.

[oroboros]

Wow, thanks Peanut. That was very helpful. I guess I can take the pictures down so it doesnt bother you.

My point exactly was that I am interested in getting to a track. As I am relatively new to street riding my question was about the profile of the stock tire and how far can I lean. I asked this because I wanted to know if there was something I should know about different tires and the tolorances. It was not about chicken strips. When I recently took the MSF Advanced rider course they specifically focused on sport bike technique and leaning.

My intention is to get in some track days but that will have to wait until I can come up with the extra $$.

[GeorgiaHooligan]

Ever run over one of those little reflectors in the middle of a long sweeper? The back tire will hop a little , not a good feeling.

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by Peanut_EOD

Go to a track. The more track time you get in the less you will worry about pointless things like chicken strips and how you look in a picture on the dragons tail. Racetracks are a whole other experience. Once you get comfortable and develop some skills on the track you will realize that you can take most curves on public roads without hanging off. This is just my opinion, but anyone dragging knee on a public road is an asshole. Do a few track days and you will most likely find riding on the street more relaxing and enjoyable. Get that knee down and going fast thing out of your system on a track. Don't be an asshole or a squid.

Gee wiz... some of the nicest fellas I know put a knee down up in our mountains around here.

[Peanut_EOD]

Originally Posted by oroboros

Wow, thanks Peanut. That was very helpful. I guess I can take the pictures down so it doesnt bother you.

My point exactly was that I am interested in getting to a track. As I am relatively new to street riding my question was about the profile of the stock tire and how far can I lean. I asked this because I wanted to know if there was something I should know about different tires and the tolorances. It was not about chicken strips. When I recently took the MSF Advanced rider course they specifically focused on sport bike technique and leaning.

My intention is to get in some track days and some but that will have to wait until I can come up with the extra $$.

Don't get me wrong, I didn't mean for you to remove your pics or talk down to you. Reading my post it did sound more harsh than it was intended to sound. I guess what I was trying to say is, don't worry about getting your knee down especially on the street. While the stock tires are somewhat unpredictable they should have plenty of grip for normal street riding. I may have been reading into your question too much. I guess to answer your question and still sound like a little bit of a dick to hopefully deter you from pushing it too hard on the street. The stock tires should hold fine for normal street riding conditions including a full lean required for most public roads. If you are trying to push it to full lean angle at speed on the dragons tail then I wouldn't trust them. It's great that you want to get to a track. I welcome every rider to do at least one track day. Its way safer than any street.

Sorry for the confusion, and I apologize.

Peanut.

[Rexbo]

I tracked a few times with a pilot sport front tire and the stock 501 rear tire, and you can definitely drag knee and pegs/exhaust with it... BUT the stock 501 is NOT predictable like better tires are. If it starts to slide, it turns into a horrible chatter and probably a highside, whereas sliding my bridgestone 003rs is MUCH more manageable and predictable. You just get that much more margin for error with a better tire than you do with those super hard stockies.

The upside is that I did like 5 track days on the stock rear 501 and despite it appearing to nugget up, it had no noticeable wear in terms of tread depth haha.

[Peanut_EOD]

I love the BT-003's. I'm on the same tires.

[Rexbo]

Originally Posted by Peanut_EOD

I love the BT-003's. I'm on the same tires.

try the pirelli supercorsa SC1 front tire... you'll like it even more

after this next race I'm tempted to buy a set of the michelin power race tires and see how I like those

[Peanut_EOD]

After this next race I'm hoping to take that 250 lap record from you.

[oroboros]

Peanut, thanks for your thoughtful reply. Good info!!

Thanks Rexbo, more good details.

I will get to the track. It's a goal.

["A"]

I'm not so sure about spending $2-300 on a track day alone can drastically improve one's riding skills without some instructions.

To achieve greater lean angle, you lean the opposite direction of the turn. I started out practicing in an empty parking lot or office parks with wide streets on the weekend with lots of empty spaces.

Ninja 250 has plenty of corner clearance regardless of tire choice, unpredictability as mentioned before is due to lack of practice. As long as tires are warmed up to proper temperature, with enough practice, you can be scraping pegs with OEM tires.

Riders seeking to gain skills should start learning the limits of their OEM machine/tires before moving onto high performance items that might make them feel they can push the envelope further, but once mistakes happen, the consequences are more severe.

[Peanut_EOD]

You've clearly never done a track day have you?

["A"]

Originally Posted by Peanut_EOD

You've clearly never done a track day have you?

Assumption like that just shows you're easily fooled.

Why would you post something like that if you don't know me from Joe Blow walking down the street?

Did my previous post lack valid information?

What part of my post do you disagree?

Be specific and do not make assumptions, please.

[Peanut_EOD]

For one you said lean the opposite direction of the turn. What are you talking about? Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you.
That was the big one, but there were others too. Like "unpredictability as mentioned before is due to lack of practice", "practicing in an empty parking lot"
I'm not trying to slam you for not being a track rider, but there were key things that you said that lead me to that conclusion.
If you do a track day with a quality track day organization they will give some tips and pointers. They are always willing to help you out.

["A"]

Originally Posted by Peanut_EOD

For one you said lean the opposite direction of the turn. What are you talking about? Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you.
That was the big one, but there were others too. Like "unpredictability as mentioned before is due to lack of practice", "practicing in an empty parking lot"
I'm not trying to slam you for not being a track rider, but there were key things that you said that lead me to that conclusion.
If you do a track day with a quality track day organization they will give some tips and pointers. They are always willing to help you out.

Since when do you have to go to a track day event to learn how to maximize your lean angle in turns?

I've participated in many track days/race weekends to know that different skill sets are required for riding on public roads vs track. If you have the budget for $200-500 to participate a track day/race weekend, $200-300 in tires, $50-100 in fuel, $20-100 in camping/hotel cost.. add $40-100 food.. all that money spent for maximum of 10-12 hours of actual ride time if lucky?

Imagine practicing 10-12 hours in an empty parking lot, how much you might learn about the predictability of your OEM tires?

When rider lean into the turn, that is to minimize the lean angle so the tire would have more of the contact patch that's used while the moto is upright contacting the pavement.

But, since the title of this thread of " How far can I lean", my words are: "To achieve greater lean angle, you lean the opposite direction of the turn." below is a good demo:

[Alex]

But the issue is rarely "how far can I lean" with no additional context. It's "how far can I lean without crashing". For streetbikes and racebikes, the faster you go around a corner, the more lean angle is necessary. At some point that amount of lean angle causes issues, either hard parts dragging and preventing additional lean (and levering the tires off of the road), tires that don't work as well at max lean, and harsher suspension performance. So the goal remains on street or track, to minimize max lean angle by both managing speed, and managing body position. On the street, managing corner speed is often more than enough, and most skilled riders on most bikes could ride most public roads with plenty of margin, without ever moving their butt off of the middle the seat. On the track, as speeds ramp up and necessary lean angles go up as well, body position to minimize the bike's lean angle becomes increasingly necessary to remain safely on two wheels.

Supermoto, as demo'd in the great pic above, may sit in a class of its own. The bikes have almost unlimited lean angle as they are very tall, very narrow, with significant ground clearance. Also, the riders on them are generally comfortable with large slip angles and loose traction both front and rear, which is a continuous process at those exaggerated lean angles.

Don't try to emulate that on a ninjette at much more than parking lot speeds. In terms of absolute limit of our particular bike, there is less ultimate clearance on the left due to the kickstand and kickstand mount. People have been caught out on track, and even on the street, but not realizing what happens when that hits the ground on a sharp, fast, left-hander. Here is one of kawi's glamour shots from the release of the '08 model, check out the clearance, or lack of it. The BP certainly isn't textbook, which isn't helping the cause, but it still illustrates the situation reasonably well.

["A"]

Supermoto may be an exaggeration of the riding posture but same could be applied on other motorcycles to achieve greater lean angle without traveling at high speed.

Personally, I don't think about crashing so much; not that I've never went down. I think about everything that I could do to avoid crashing. Practicing for hours with the equipment that I already have and learn the limits of their capabilities in empty parking lots. There are plenty of ways to push the envelope without crashing or getting hurt, but putting the time to practice is how one gets good at it.

IMO the track is an environment that entice riders to ride well beyond their abilities, without learning the limits or capabilities of their equipments first.
Consequences are grave when people are

[kingkang204]

Originally Posted by Misti

Really good points here!! You must have a good teacher The amount you can lean is going to depend a lot on what you are doing with your body position. You could have the best tires out there but if you have poor body position you may run out of grip much faster than someone with good body position on crappy tires. Judging from the pics I say you need to sit back in the seat a little bit and work on leaning your upper body into the turn instead of having it remain over the center of the bike.



Exactly

Cheers and ride safe!!

Misti

The amazing teacher would be you. (Thank you for your thread about "Where do you sit")

I have another question though, while leaning in a corner do you still counter-steer to initiate more lean or do you put more body weight into the corner? The reason I ask is because I often find myself being really stiff mid-corner (I know I said to be relaxed but its much harder than just saying it) so its hard to push one way to lean more so I often just put my body lower towards the inside of the corner.
Thanks!

[Peanut_EOD]

Originally Posted by kingkang204

The amazing teacher would be you. (Thank you for your thread about "Where do you sit")

I have another question though, while leaning in a corner do you still counter-steer to initiate more lean or do you put more body weight into the corner? The reason I ask is because I often find myself being really stiff mid-corner (I know I said to be relaxed but its much harder than just saying it) so its hard to push one way to lean more so I often just put my body lower towards the inside of the corner.
Thanks!

While you are putting your body lower towards the inside of the corner you are counter steering at the same time. The amount of counter steer is so slight that its not something you need to think about. This is why with proper body position the bike just seems to flow so naturally into a turn. Once you are in the turn you can make the other minor adjustments like more or less counter steer, pressure on the rearsets, seat position throttle even raising or lowering your head makes slight changes to what the bike is doing in the turn. The more track time you get the more all of these things become natural, and not something you have to think about.

[kingkang204]

Originally Posted by Peanut_EOD

While you are putting your body lower towards the inside of the corner you are counter steering at the same time. The amount of counter steer is so slight that its not something you need to think about. This is why with proper body position the bike just seems to flow so naturally into a turn. Once you are in the turn you can make the other minor adjustments like more or less counter steer, pressure on the rearsets, seat position throttle even raising or lowering your head makes slight changes to what the bike is doing in the turn. The more track time you get the more all of these things become natural, and not something you have to think about.

I didn't Really consider that leaning more counter-steered more. I haven't been to the track yet, but I plan on going either in may or June. I just bought a track suit this week and it's supposed to be here next Tuesday. I still need boots, gloves and tires so it'll be awhile till I'm fully set for the track.

On another note, I rode my r6 today and I found it felt more "stable" through corners, I also liked the more responsive throttle and the power mid corner

[rockNroll]

This thread has turned funny

[Peanut_EOD]

Originally Posted by rockNroll

This thread has turned funny

Really? How?

[Rexbo]

For your consideration:

[Peanut_EOD]

Ah, Cadwell Park. Nice!

[KELPHYN]

I'd like to see that done on stock tires and no diaper!

[Peanut_EOD]

Not gonna happen.