Valve Adjustment Problems >:(

NInjaR53 · March 24th, 2011, 06:37 PM

...Sorry title should be Cam Cap problems, not valve adjustment problems...

Well I was finishing up my 250's valve adjustment and putting the valve cover back on when the unspeakable happens, the bolt just TEARS off,

anyway it turns out that I torqued the bolt too much and the bolt's thread stuck itself inside the cam cap, now I already got this solved by removing the cam cap and taking it to a motorcycle shop and having them remove it for me...The problem I'm having is that when I was torquing the bolt for the cam cap down....take a guess!...The top broke off and got stuck...

Here's what I'm talking about:

This is with the cam cap removed, you can see a piece of the screw has lodged itself up there

so now what are my options? The cam cap is held on by two screws and so I went ahead and put the bike back together and it runs...I'll post a video up to show you guys so you can see if it sounds normal.

Obviously I should take this in to a mechanic who will know a lot more than me but since the bike runs and the cam cap is held on by at least one screw, would it be safe to ride it in the mean time???

Here's the video of me starting it up, (I know I shouldn't have but bear with me please) the bike sounds a little funky to me, like loose valves or something...can anyone reassure me?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAbio...layer_embedded

Thanks for any help

AncientTV · March 24th, 2011, 07:28 PM

No, it's a very good idea to not ride it. Just think, those cams are spinning a few hundred thousand times per ride, and they were designed to be held on with what is on there, nothing less. Don't ride it with an unsecured cam cap!

As for getting that piece of bolt out, an EZ-out should do the trick. All it is is a left-handed threaded drill bit with teeth to grab onto whatever it's drilled into. Here's how it's done:
1. Drill into stuck bolt with a regular drill bit (the size you use is determined by the size EZ-out you get)
2. Place the EZ-out bit in the hole , and slowly and carefully rotate it counter-clockwise while pushing down. You can use a drill for this, but you have to do it extremely slowly, or the bit will just rip away the treads made by the drilling, and you'll have to start over.

You can find EZ-outs at pretty much any hardware store.

NInjaR53 · March 24th, 2011, 09:25 PM

Thanks for the info on the EZ out, have you ever done this before? Just seems like a tough spot... I'm pretty mechanically inclined but the way this has been going for me, I feel like I should just take it to a mechanic, but don't feel like getting charged up the butt and laughed at for my stupidity...

kkim · March 24th, 2011, 09:29 PM

I've never had much luck using an EZ out. Most times I end up breaking the EZ out bit in the bolt shaft as I'm trying to remove the broken bolt.

Considering you broke 2 bolts doing the valve adjustment, is it fair to guess that you're not using a torque wrench? If not, I high recommend you get one and use it.

AncientTV · March 24th, 2011, 09:30 PM

I've actually had to do it three times for the exact same reason

Twice on my old EX500 valve cover, and once on a cam cover on a 240sx
Just take it slow and you should be fine

It may be easiest to bring in an unbroken one and have an employee recommend what size EZ-out to use.

edit: I've never heard of an EZ-out breaking, but I've only got my experiences and a few others to go on. YMMV.

NInjaR53 · March 24th, 2011, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkim

Considering you broke 2 bolts doing the valve adjustment, is it fair to guess that you're not using a torque wrench? If not, I high recommend you get one and use it.

haha ya, I've only got a foot lbs wrench, and its too big to use in the small space that I'm working in...These bolts are so damn fragile tho

So do you think I can get this done without removing the valve cover head? or would that just be stupid on my part to try?

kkim · March 24th, 2011, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AncientTV

edit: I've never heard of an EZ-out breaking, but I've only got my experiences and a few others to go on. YMMV.

some people have more talent than others. I happen to have none.

AncientTV · March 24th, 2011, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NInjaR53

So do you think I can get this done without removing the valve cover head? or would that just be stupid on my part to try?

I'd remove it. The easier you can make it on yourself, the better.

edit: Also yeah, pick up a micro torque wrench. They can be had for like 20 bucks.

NInjaR53 · March 24th, 2011, 09:48 PM

Sounds good, but in general, what is the purpose of the cam cap? Does it hold the cams down? or is it just a guard? and if it comes down to it, do you think a quick 10min ride to a shop will cause any damage, I'm a broke college kid so any money saved helps (hence me doing the valves myself to begin with...) and I'm not too comfortable with removing the head myself...

AncientTV · March 24th, 2011, 10:04 PM

Oh lord, not the head, I thought you just meant the valve cover haha. Yeah, leave the head on

And they serve as guides for the cam. You want equal pressure to be applied at all points so the cam isn't being treated with unequal forces. Without a solid cap, it could begin to weaken at that point because of slight vertical vibrations. It will mostly likely be fine for a short ride, but you really want to minimize the amount of riding you do while it's like that.

I know how you feel haha, broke-college-student brofist.

kkim · March 24th, 2011, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AncientTV

edit: Also yeah, pick up a micro torque wrench. They can be had for like 20 bucks.

a 1/4" drive torque wrench is great. measures in inch pounds.

NInjaR53 · March 24th, 2011, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AncientTV

Oh lord, not the head, I thought you just meant the valve cover haha. Yeah, leave the head on

I know how you feel haha, broke-college-student brofist.

Oh, so this can be done by just removing the valve cover and using the EZ out with the head still attached to the bike? haha just to make sure there's no misunderstanding

NInjaR53 · March 24th, 2011, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkim

a 1/4" drive torque wrench is great. measures in inch pounds.

Do you recommend the click type or the type with the needle that moves across the range at the bottom? or does it not matter? haha

kkim · March 24th, 2011, 10:24 PM

I use click types that I purchased from Harbor Freight... 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" drive wrenches. seems to do the trick and have never snapped bolts off while using them.

think I paid about $20 each...
http://www.harborfreight.com/catalog...=torque+wrench

k-os · March 25th, 2011, 05:27 AM

You could also try some left handed drill bits. I'd guess the bolt wouldn't be stuck too hard in there if you just recently threaded it in.

FrugalNinja250 · March 25th, 2011, 06:24 AM

It's likely that the broken bolt shaft will spin freely in the threads. Before drilling and using an extractor, try turning it out with the tip of a small screwdriver. Alternatively, get a left-handed drill bit and start drilling the stump. Chances are the bit will grab the screw and turn it out. Pack the hole with grease to keep the metal shavings out of the motor.

AncientTV · March 25th, 2011, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NInjaR53

Oh, so this can be done by just removing the valve cover and using the EZ out with the head still attached to the bike? haha just to make sure there's no misunderstanding

Yep, as long as you can see the stuck piece and drill into it, you're good to go.

Nemesis · March 25th, 2011, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AncientTV

Yep, as long as you can see the stuck piece and drill into it, you're good to go.

If you drill, you better darn well make sure fragments don't get into the engine bay.

I've been in OP's situation a few times (not during valve adjustment) and usually I just use a small flat head screw driver and a mallet/hammer and lightly tap the screw head counter clockwise till it turns. Has worked for me 100%.

NInjaR53 · March 25th, 2011, 11:09 PM

Hey, thanks for all the info guys but I'm just going to have my ninjette towed to a shop to have this taken care of, I don't really feel comfortable doing this myself, might as well just admit defeat =/...

kkim · March 26th, 2011, 12:40 AM

no defeat... maybe the smarter move, considering the circumstances.

please let us know how this turns out.

GL

AncientTV · March 26th, 2011, 08:15 AM

It's always smarter to know your limits

NInjaR53 · April 2nd, 2011, 10:18 PM

Hey! So just a quick update, got my bike out from the shop and the guys over there were really cool about it. They laughed at me a little cause this is the second time I broke a bolt in there, =/ but its all sorted now. Took them about 2 1/2 hours of labor until the bolt was removed.

But I have another question, my bike sounds like there is some clatter, maybe under the tank? I think it may be the sound of the valves after I loosened them so if anyone knows if some noise after loosening the valves is normal or not. Everything FEELS normal tho, and the sound increases in frequency with the RPM's. I'm going to take my bike back to the shop to ask on monday, but it doesn't bother me much, just something I noticed.

Anyways thanks for all the advice/help you guys have given me!

kkim · April 2nd, 2011, 11:05 PM

do a search on "cam chain tensioner". when they age, they can get loose and cause noises that many can confuse with valve noise.

not saying it's not your valves, only that there may be more than just the valves that can be the source of your noise.

AncientTV · April 2nd, 2011, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NInjaR53

2 1/2 hours of labor

Does this sound fishy to anyone else? Even the toughest of removals shouldn't take more than an hour, if that. As far as I know at least.

NInjaR53 · April 3rd, 2011, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AncientTV

Does this sound fishy to anyone else? Even the toughest of removals shouldn't take more than an hour, if that. As far as I know at least.

I would assume it would take maybe 30-45 min to remove & put back all the fairings and whatnot, that leaves ~2 hours for a bolt extraction...I feel like I'm going to have to argue with them for a bit over this on monday :/

March 24th, 2011, 06:37 PM	#1
NInjaR53 ninjette.org member Name: Alex Location: San Bruno, CA Join Date: Jan 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2006 Ninja 250 Posts: 20	Valve Adjustment Problems >:( ...Sorry title should be Cam Cap problems, not valve adjustment problems... Well I was finishing up my 250's valve adjustment and putting the valve cover back on when the unspeakable happens, the bolt just TEARS off, anyway it turns out that I torqued the bolt too much and the bolt's thread stuck itself inside the cam cap, now I already got this solved by removing the cam cap and taking it to a motorcycle shop and having them remove it for me...The problem I'm having is that when I was torquing the bolt for the cam cap down....take a guess!...The top broke off and got stuck... Here's what I'm talking about: This is with the cam cap removed, you can see a piece of the screw has lodged itself up there so now what are my options? The cam cap is held on by two screws and so I went ahead and put the bike back together and it runs...I'll post a video up to show you guys so you can see if it sounds normal. Obviously I should take this in to a mechanic who will know a lot more than me but since the bike runs and the cam cap is held on by at least one screw, would it be safe to ride it in the mean time??? Here's the video of me starting it up, (I know I shouldn't have but bear with me please) the bike sounds a little funky to me, like loose valves or something...can anyone reassure me? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAbio...layer_embedded Thanks for any help Last futzed with by NInjaR53; March 24th, 2011 at 10:00 PM. Reason: Title, Video

March 24th, 2011, 07:28 PM	#2
AncientTV ninjette.org member Name: nah Location: nope Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250r Posts: 38	No, it's a very good idea to not ride it. Just think, those cams are spinning a few hundred thousand times per ride, and they were designed to be held on with what is on there, nothing less. Don't ride it with an unsecured cam cap! As for getting that piece of bolt out, an EZ-out should do the trick. All it is is a left-handed threaded drill bit with teeth to grab onto whatever it's drilled into. Here's how it's done: 1. Drill into stuck bolt with a regular drill bit (the size you use is determined by the size EZ-out you get) 2. Place the EZ-out bit in the hole , and slowly and carefully rotate it counter-clockwise while pushing down. You can use a drill for this, but you have to do it extremely slowly, or the bit will just rip away the treads made by the drilling, and you'll have to start over. You can find EZ-outs at pretty much any hardware store. Last futzed with by AncientTV; March 24th, 2011 at 07:28 PM. Reason: grammar

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March 24th, 2011, 09:25 PM	#3
NInjaR53 ninjette.org member Name: Alex Location: San Bruno, CA Join Date: Jan 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2006 Ninja 250 Posts: 20	Thanks for the info on the EZ out, have you ever done this before? Just seems like a tough spot... I'm pretty mechanically inclined but the way this has been going for me, I feel like I should just take it to a mechanic, but don't feel like getting charged up the butt and laughed at for my stupidity...

March 24th, 2011, 09:29 PM	#4
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	I've never had much luck using an EZ out. Most times I end up breaking the EZ out bit in the bolt shaft as I'm trying to remove the broken bolt. Considering you broke 2 bolts doing the valve adjustment, is it fair to guess that you're not using a torque wrench? If not, I high recommend you get one and use it.

March 24th, 2011, 09:30 PM	#5
AncientTV ninjette.org member Name: nah Location: nope Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250r Posts: 38	I've actually had to do it three times for the exact same reason Twice on my old EX500 valve cover, and once on a cam cover on a 240sx Just take it slow and you should be fine It may be easiest to bring in an unbroken one and have an employee recommend what size EZ-out to use. edit: I've never heard of an EZ-out breaking, but I've only got my experiences and a few others to go on. YMMV.

March 24th, 2011, 09:48 PM	#9
NInjaR53 ninjette.org member Name: Alex Location: San Bruno, CA Join Date: Jan 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2006 Ninja 250 Posts: 20	Sounds good, but in general, what is the purpose of the cam cap? Does it hold the cams down? or is it just a guard? and if it comes down to it, do you think a quick 10min ride to a shop will cause any damage, I'm a broke college kid so any money saved helps (hence me doing the valves myself to begin with...) and I'm not too comfortable with removing the head myself...

March 24th, 2011, 10:04 PM	#10
AncientTV ninjette.org member Name: nah Location: nope Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250r Posts: 38	Oh lord, not the head, I thought you just meant the valve cover haha. Yeah, leave the head on And they serve as guides for the cam. You want equal pressure to be applied at all points so the cam isn't being treated with unequal forces. Without a solid cap, it could begin to weaken at that point because of slight vertical vibrations. It will mostly likely be fine for a short ride, but you really want to minimize the amount of riding you do while it's like that. I know how you feel haha, broke-college-student brofist.

March 24th, 2011, 10:24 PM	#14
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	I use click types that I purchased from Harbor Freight... 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" drive wrenches. seems to do the trick and have never snapped bolts off while using them. think I paid about $20 each... http://www.harborfreight.com/catalog...=torque+wrench

March 25th, 2011, 05:27 AM	#15
k-os ninjette.org sage Name: Andy Location: Sheboygan, WI Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): 1988 Honda Hawk NT650, 1989 Honda Hawk NT650, 1997 GSXR750 Track Bike Posts: 890	You could also try some left handed drill bits. I'd guess the bolt wouldn't be stuck too hard in there if you just recently threaded it in.

March 25th, 2011, 06:24 AM	#16
FrugalNinja250 ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Frugal Location: Dallas/Fort Worth (DFW) Join Date: Mar 2010 Motorcycle(s): Several Posts: A lot.	It's likely that the broken bolt shaft will spin freely in the threads. Before drilling and using an extractor, try turning it out with the tip of a small screwdriver. Alternatively, get a left-handed drill bit and start drilling the stump. Chances are the bit will grab the screw and turn it out. Pack the hole with grease to keep the metal shavings out of the motor.

March 25th, 2011, 11:09 PM	#19
NInjaR53 ninjette.org member Name: Alex Location: San Bruno, CA Join Date: Jan 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2006 Ninja 250 Posts: 20	Hey, thanks for all the info guys but I'm just going to have my ninjette towed to a shop to have this taken care of, I don't really feel comfortable doing this myself, might as well just admit defeat =/...

March 26th, 2011, 12:40 AM	#20
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	no defeat... maybe the smarter move, considering the circumstances. please let us know how this turns out. GL

March 26th, 2011, 08:15 AM	#21
AncientTV ninjette.org member Name: nah Location: nope Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250r Posts: 38	It's always smarter to know your limits

April 2nd, 2011, 10:18 PM	#22
NInjaR53 ninjette.org member Name: Alex Location: San Bruno, CA Join Date: Jan 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2006 Ninja 250 Posts: 20	Hey! So just a quick update, got my bike out from the shop and the guys over there were really cool about it. They laughed at me a little cause this is the second time I broke a bolt in there, =/ but its all sorted now. Took them about 2 1/2 hours of labor until the bolt was removed. But I have another question, my bike sounds like there is some clatter, maybe under the tank? I think it may be the sound of the valves after I loosened them so if anyone knows if some noise after loosening the valves is normal or not. Everything FEELS normal tho, and the sound increases in frequency with the RPM's. I'm going to take my bike back to the shop to ask on monday, but it doesn't bother me much, just something I noticed. Anyways thanks for all the advice/help you guys have given me!

April 2nd, 2011, 11:05 PM	#23
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	do a search on "cam chain tensioner". when they age, they can get loose and cause noises that many can confuse with valve noise. not saying it's not your valves, only that there may be more than just the valves that can be the source of your noise.