Would you rather sweat or bleed? *Graphic images*

[cuong-nutz]

It was over 100 degrees out that day, so a friend who’d just started riding decided it would be a good idea to ride to work without his jacket. Long story short, it wasn’t. Especially when he t-boned a car at 35mph. Here’s grizzly proof that getting a little hot in full gear isn’t such a bad idea.

We’d been in the middle of a heat wave here in LA, with the usual 72-and-sunny replaced with humidity and temps in the high 90s and low 100s. In conditions like that, riding around in a leather or textile jacket may seem like an insane thing to do. But to me, it’s the most sane. I’m not here to preach or sound like an elitist to new or inexperienced riders, I only want to share with you the consequences of some of these choices. Maybe they’ll even scare you into making smarter decisions.

During this friend’s short commute to work — the one in which he thought it was smart to leave his newly-purchased Alpinestars jacket at home for — he was caught off guard for whatever reason and missed a woman making a right-hand turn into him. Travelling at about 35mph, he had no time to grab his brakes, T-boning the car and flying right through the woman’s passenger window. I’ll let the pictures tell the rest of that story…




Had he been wearing his jacket, he would have just brushed himself off and waited for a friend to give him a ride home. Instead, he got a ride in an ambulance and a whole bunch of stitches.

Now, I know what it’s like to kiss Tarmac. That’s why, even when it’s seriously hot out, you’ll find me in my Dainese G. Speed Naked Pelle jacket, Steel Core Carbon gloves, Axial Pro In Boots and AGV Grid helmet. Yeah, I get the occasional puzzled look and “Aren’t you hot in that?” I’m actually quite cool because I know if anything happens on my ride, I’m well prepared for it.

Luck for me, that jacket is so thin, light and ventilated that I didn’t need to pick up a textile mesh item when summer finally hit us. I can sit at a traffic light and not totally overheat. Unlike my R1…

Dress for the slide (or for flying through a car window), not the ride.

http://rideapart.com/2013/07/the-cho...weat-or-bleed/

[fishdip]

I don't know if a jacket may have help much as my dad in his leather jacket had his arm cut off at 35mph when he got tangled up in barbwire fence.

[Driddle]

That is a great illustration of why I ATGATT.
I can't stand squidding, and I still wear all my gear, even when its 100+ outside. Granted I don't ride much, but I still do.

[nautica]

Originally Posted by fishdip

I don't know if a jacket may have help much as my dad in his leather jacket had his arm cut off at 35mph when he got tangled up in barbwire fence.

The difference between barbed wire and a window is that a window is at least forgiving and will break. It's hard to say how a jacket would have held up to that but chances are a leather jacket would have been alright, while a textile may or may not get destroyed.

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by nautica

The difference between barbed wire and a window is that a window is at least forgiving and will break. It's hard to say how a jacket would have held up to that but chances are a leather jacket would have been alright, while a textile may or may not get destroyed.

It looks like the window did brake and this is why he got slash woods. I will say they not been as deep but to say he just walk away with out being hurt I think is wrong.

[Kokosun]

OMG!

They are horrible pictures.

I view being a little uncomfortable as 'insurance'. I figure that, the one day I decide to go without an item of protection, is the one day that I fall off.

[This Girl Rides]

FishDip,

The point is: when riding in gear you are at a major benefit of more safety versus if you ride squid you're potentially testing the waters.

Here in FL, I see squids ALL the time due to the no helmet law here and every time I ride by one I can't help but to shake my head in disgust and hope the best for them.

I'd rather donate a little sweat than donate my skin and blood.

[lgk]

Did he try to swerve towards the back of the car?
Leather or kevlar lined textiles definitely would have made it a non issue.
A mesh jacket would have helped to decrease the amount and depth of lacerations.

Hope he recovers quickly

[BIGREDIOWAN]

I wore my newly purchased gear yesterday in 90 degree weather and I was fine for the most part, got a little hot at some lights, but not unbearable.The picture above is enough motivation to wear it no matter what! Just need to purchase some boots and some new gloves when the funds recover from all the recent purchases. Had a guy pass me on a wrecked GSXR yesterday in shorts, t-shirt, and flip flops and he looked at me like I was crazy.................he got the same look back with an added head shake. Dumba$$..........

[Obsidia]

This is why I'm currently fighting with the husband to let me get a set of leathers. I have a good textile jacket and drayko jeans but yeah..I've no desire to leave bits of me around. I wish more people valued their skin. Yes, I'm hotter than crazy with this weird 90+ degree weather PDX has had lately, but I'm still in all of my gear.

[Bentley813]

Ouch. I still haven't sat on my bike without leathers on. Sure I sweat buckets, part of the game.

[This Girl Rides]

Shoot, i'm in the sunshine state of FL and still ride full gear on 100*+ days.

I sweat, and usually my hair is wet and looks like crap when I get to my destination if it's a longer ride but i'm alive and in one piece. To me that's what is important.

[NevadaWolf]

I've met asphalt three times now. Once in leathers, once in textiles, and once in jeans and textile jacket (n00b). The only time I got hurt was the knee slice through the jeans.

"Aren't you hot?!" yeah, but I know how easy it is to wreck either through my fault or someone else's. I'll take the heat over a lifetime of scars, medical bills, disability, or death.

Hope he learns from that and heals up fully.

[cuong-nutz]

Don't forget your knee protection! You'd be amaze how you much you take things for granted until you get really jacked up.

[choneofakind]

Honestly, my 1-piece leather race suit is cooler while riding than my textile jacket and jeans. It's perforated all over, and the insides of my legs/arms/crotch are all Keprotec and all ventilate.

Well worth the money.

[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Honestly, my 1-piece leather race suit is cooler while riding than my textile jacket and jeans. It's perforated all over, and the insides of my legs/arms/crotch are all Keprotec and all ventilate.

Well worth the money.

I am the same. its actually alot cooler to go around in my 1 piece than my kevlar jeans and textile jacket as well. Funny its like that. I love my 1 piece power ranger suit :P

[This Girl Rides]

One day I shall have a nice 1 piece leather suit, and then I can look like cat woman

lmao.

[Whiskey]

If you're too hot in leathers you're not moving fast enough

[krolinked]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

If you're too hot in leathers you're not moving fast enough

Damn Straight!

[n4mwd]

Had he been wearing his jacket, he would have just brushed himself off and waited for a friend to give him a ride home. Instead, he got a ride in an ambulance and a whole bunch of stitches.

That statement is false. A mesh jacket would have ripped along with the rider's skin had he been wearing it. Jackets are mostly good for abrasive protection - slides - and protect fairly well against road rash. But something sharp is going to slice right through them. Glass cuts through pretty much everything. Its one of the hardest known substances. A razor blade can't cut glass.

Jackets also have CE padding in the shoulder's and elbows and help protect those joints from impacts - but only if you land on those pads.

If anyone doubts this, I can post a photo of my sliced mesh jacket. I think leather would be more resistant to slicing, but even it is not slice proof.

So the bottom line is that you should always ride with your helmet, jacket and gloves, but if you fail to avoid hitting the car that pulls out in front of you, it will probably hurt. If it doesn't hurt, it means you're dead.

[choneofakind]

Of course your mesh jacket got sliced on pavement, it's mesh! What did you expect? What do MotoGP riders wear? Leather. There's a reason for that.

Also, don't doubt the armor in jackets/suits so much. It can take a lot of impact energy and spread it out over a much larger area so that your joints (and spine! ) aren't as likely to be heavily damaged. Know how much it hurts to bump a shoulder or hip into a door frame at even a moderate walking pace? Go throw yourself at the ground elbow first and tell me you wouldn't rather have armor that's rated for it's impact dispersing qualities.

[n4mwd]

Oh, I always wear a jacket. But I did land on my elbow with the jacket and it messed up my shoulder. I probably would have broken my shoulder without it. Not to mention the damage to my elbow. But my point is that the jacket lessens injuries and is not guaranteed to prevent them. My shoulder is still messed up from my lowside in Feb. And the guy in the photo would not have simply gotten up, brushed himself off and rode off into the sunset.

[setasai]

Don't cars use tempered safety glass nowadays? If so, any kind of layer would probably reduce those cuts to almost papercuts or scratches. Plus, those cuts are exactly where an elbow and shoulder armor would be not to mention those regions are usually reinforced with stronger/multiple layers of textile even in mesh jackets.

He might not walk away scott free but more likely than not walked away without stitches.

[n4mwd]

I don't have an alpinestars jacket, but the two that I do have would not have protected that guy in the areas where he got ripped. Side window glass is tempered, and its possible it was something else that sliced him rather than the glass, but nevertheless, something sliced him.

Again, I think leather would have protected him better, but even leather is not immune to a slice.

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by setasai

Don't cars use tempered safety glass nowadays? If so, any kind of layer would probably reduce those cuts to almost papercuts or scratches. Plus, those cuts are exactly where an elbow and shoulder armor would be not to mention those regions are usually reinforced with stronger/multiple layers of textile even in mesh jackets.

He might not walk away scott free but more likely than not walked away without stitches.

did they use it on older cars?

[lgk]

tempered auto glass behaves differently than regular glass or even laminated glass.
when it breaks the cubed shards are much less sharp due to its heat treatment.

even a mesh jacket with armor would have stopped most of the deep cuts and eliminated the small ones. the armor and fabric displaces the small shards, and breaks up the larger ones, imo.
the multiple layers of a good jacket probably would have protected him well in this case.

[fishdip]

http://www.nbcdfw.com/investigations...206353031.html

[lgk]

If it was laminated glass he might not get scratched at all due to him bouncing off the window.

Might break some bones though...

[n4mwd]

If the glass didn't slice that guy, then something else did. Remember that leather IS skin, so if it sliced the guy, it would have sliced leather. The question is whether it would have sliced the leather AND him. But if it can slice leather, the probability is high that a mesh jacket would not have protected him.

But having said that, I personally think that mesh is safer overall for everyday (not track) riding. The reason: You're more likely to actually wear it on a hot day.

They have the perforated leather - which is a compromise between leather and mesh - but I think it would end up in the closet on a 95F day.

Over 95F, I have heard some people say that solid leather is cooler because it acts like an insulator. But I'm guessing that insulating effect only works for maybe 30 minutes at best before your own body heat starts cooking you.

[lgk]

I think the glass on the lower left side of the window cut him. The window frame held the shards with enough force to gouge him.

Wearing any protective motorcycle jacket would have saved him.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

But having said that, I personally think that mesh is safer overall for everyday (not track) riding. The reason: You're more likely to actually wear it on a hot day.

this.

i rode with a vented textile last summer and wanted to kill myself. I wore it every day, but it made me think twice about riding my bike on hot days. I bought a mesh (with full textile arms) jacket this year, and i'm 10x more comfortable, even on 95+ degree days and 100% humidity. When moving anything over 25, it feels like I'm just wearing whatever I had on underneath with the quantity of airflow that I get.

The window should have been fully tempered, so it theoretically should have shattered to small cubes. Sometimes tempered glass shatters but doesn't immediately fall apart. That's likely what happened. Also, tint or any other laminate installed on the glass could have held the pieces together long enough to provide a surface to slice.

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Over 95F, I have heard some people say that solid leather is cooler because it acts like an insulator. But I'm guessing that insulating effect only works for maybe 30 minutes at best before your own body heat starts cooking you.

I'd rather sweat than bleed - any day. I'm ATGATT even in hot weather.

When it is really hot, you cannot sweat fast enough to cool yourself and wearing mesh, or less, does not cut it. It sounds counter intuitive but you heat faster with mesh or less. At that point you must insulate.

Good reading here from the Ironbutt folks:

http://www.ironbutt.com/ibmagazine/i..._62-66_Hot.pdf

The magic number is 93. Below 93°F, it’s fairly easy to stay cool on a motorcycle as long as you are moving fast enough to get some wind against your skin for convective cooling. A mesh riding suit feels great. Above 93°F, it’s a different world. The wind is no longer your friend.

For long distance riding in temperature higher than 93°F, you need to (1) minimize your body’s exposure to direct wind blast; (2) wear wicking undergarments, including a helmet liner; (3) carry an adequate supply of cool water and drink frequently; and (4) insulate any parts of your body exposed to engine heat or radiator discharge.

Dress right, drink right, and enjoy the ride.

Or from the master, David Hough: http://www.soundrider.com/archive/sa..._youre_hot.htm

You may think your body is hot at 99 F, but it’s "cold" compared to air at 118 F. If you expose your skin to air that’s hotter than you are, your body just soaks up more heat.

The lesson here is that if air temperature is in the 80s or 90s, it helps to open up the jacket vents, or wear a mesh jacket. But once air temperature climbs above 99 F, the best way to keep from getting cooked is to keep your insulation on, and the vents closed. Desert nomads wear long, loose wool garments, both to keep the sweating skin in the shade, and to insulate the body from the hot air.

With the temperature in triple digits, I wear my leather gloves and insulated riding [boots]. My feet are down in the air stream that’s first been heated up by the pavement, and then heated some more by the engine. Are my feet hot? Sure, but not as hot as if I were wearing thin boots or shoes that exposed my ankles.

Same for the helmet. Wouldn’t it make sense to crack my visor when it’s really hot, or at least open up the helmet vents? Nope. Any hot air allowed to reach my skin will heat up the skin, not cool it down. Inside my helmet at 118F, I’m sweltering, but the temperature is probably under 100 F. That crushable helmet liner inside the shell is there to cushion my brain against impacts, but it’s the same expanded polystyrene foam they use to make insulated picnic coolers. So, the helmet actually provides insulation against the hot air.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by JeffM

I'd rather sweat than bleed - any day. I'm ATGATT even in hot weather.

When it is really hot, you cannot sweat fast enough to cool yourself and wearing mesh, or less, does not cut it. It sounds counter intuitive but you heat faster with mesh or less. At that point you must insulate.

Good reading here from the Ironbutt folks:

http://www.ironbutt.com/ibmagazine/i..._62-66_Hot.pdf



Or from the master, David Hough: http://www.soundrider.com/archive/sa..._youre_hot.htm

While I appreciate the knowledge that these folks are trying to expel, their reasoning is misleading and false. It' not high temperatures that prevent our bodies from cooling, it's high humidity. Our bodies can survive temperatures much higher than 100 as long as the relative humidity isn't too high.

On a day above 90 degrees, your body relies solely on evaporative cooling to maintain a temperature, not convective cooling. There is no other method, aside from consuming something cold. That's why you sweat even when doing nothing. As each water molecule from sweat evaporates from our skin, it takes heat away from our body, and cools us. Evaporative cooling only works when there is capacity for additional moisture in the air. As the air reaches 100% relative humidity, there is no more cooling left. That's why, on a 90 degree but 100% relative humidity day, it feels a lot hotter than a day that's 100 degrees but only 60% relative humidity. You're body can't cool itself once the relative humidity reaches 100%.

Now, if we seal up our jackets and avoid providing fresh air into our jackets, we are effectively getting rid of the only method of cooling that our bodies have. After just a few short minutes, the air within the jacket will reach 100% humidity, and our sweat will no longer evaporate. Our body temperature will continue to climb, until it reaches equilibrium with the exterior temperature. The only way to continue to cool yourself, is to refresh the air in your jacket with air that is not at 100% relative humidity. These folks might not realize it, but they're getting some air change in their "sealed up" gear, and that's the only thing that's cooling them down.

Desert nomads wear long clothing to keep the sun off their skin. The clothing is loose and open. This allows for constant refreshing of the air that's within the clothing, continuing the process of evaporative cooling.


So, bottom line is, if the relative humidity isn't 100% outside, you need MORE AIR ON YOUR SKIN. Once it reaches 100% relative humidity, well then, there's really nothing you can do, because your body has no way to cool itself.

and don't even get me started on "moisture wicking" clothes keeping you cool. That **** is only good for one thing, and that's to keep you from stinking, preventing swampass, and avoiding blisters on your feet.. Moisture wicking clothes pull the moisture away from your body before it has the chance to evaporate - again negating evaporative cooling.

/mechanical engineering discussion.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

But having said that, I personally think that mesh is safer overall for everyday (not track) riding. The reason: You're more likely to actually wear it on a hot day.

I bought a mesh jacket, thinking this. I found that the mesh was too flimsy and felt like a joke. Instead, I either wear my textile jacket that I love, or my leather race suit.

Yes, the best gear is the gear you actually wear. But I'd rather wear gear that's actually going to help me rather than help me feel a little less sweaty. Even when it was in the mid-90's a few weeks back, I was out there in non-mesh gear, sweating it up.

I find that a perf leather suit with breathable panels in the arms and legs is actually better overall at keeping me cool than any other gear (or lack thereof) that I've ever worn. Just enough air moving to keep me cool, and it's all in the right places.

You're very anti-gear...

[lgk]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

You're very anti-gear...

lol,
he's just skeptical about its effectiveness, and likes promoting comfort/ evasive maneuvers.

[JeffM]

@dfox Both articles agree with you, however, I do not believe they are misleading.

I commute year round in full atgatt (Hottest so far - 105f in SLC) and these techniques work for me. Nomads only have to wear gear that will protect them from a fall off a slow moving camel into sand. So, loose robes work well for them.

I believe the IronButt riders and David Hough know a bit about what they are talking about.

From the Hough article:

The bad news is that evaporative cooling only works well in dry climates. When the humidity is already high, (you're 99/99 in Missouri in August--99 degrees and 99 percent) neither perspiration nor the water in your neckband evaporate very well. Limited evaporation; limited cooling. But of course there is shade in Missouri, so the best tactic may be to simply take more breaks in humid climates. Or, you can ride early in the morning when it’s cool, and rest in the shade in the afternoon.

From the Ironbutt article:

The secret to avoiding heat stroke when riding in extremely hot weather is to cut down the convective heat transfer by blocking most of the wind. This can be accomplished by using a fairing and windscreen and/or by wearing a helmet and riding suit that blocks the wind and has vents to allow a lower velocity of air to pass over your skin. By knocking the air velocity down to about 10 mph, the convective heat transfer is reduced by 70% and there is still plenty of air flow for efficient evaporative cooling.

Evaporative cooling is the only way to cool and you are correct, however, if you cannot produce enough sweat and convection is heating your skin you can get on the wrong side of the curve and overheat.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by lgk

lol,
he's just skeptical about its effectiveness, and likes promoting comfort/ evasive maneuvers.

You got that right. I like gear, but only if its actually effective. I like to call a spade a spade. I know how my gear works and what it will do. And I don't expect it to make me invincible.

Take helmets for example. I get the impression that most new riders are unaware than even the best of helmets is not going to protect your head with an impact much over 15 mph. That is impact speed, not bike speed. If you lowside doing 100 mph, then the impact speed is what gravity did to bring you to the ground ~ 10 mph. If you crash into a car that pulled out in front of you, impact speed = bike speed. So when you crash into a solid object with your head, the helmet doesn't make all that much difference over 30 mph. If you can't avoid an accident with a car that pulls across your path, going over, or through (like this guy did) is the best option. I've seen too many bikers wearing helmets die because they hit a car that crossed their path without looking.

But that isn't saying helmets are bad, only that they have limits. I wear a helmet because I'll take that 15 mph impact reduction plus all the other advantages helmets offer.

Its always better to avoid an accident than to survive one - ALWAYS!

Chris, its not surprising, considering where you live, that you can get away with wearing leather or solid textile. Where you live, the temps got down to the mid 60's this morning and the current heat index is only 83F in the sun. Here, in SFL, the temp got down to only 75F this morning and the heat index is currently 89F in the rain.

Considering safety only, a good leather jacket always beats out textile or mesh. But down here, we also have to take into consideration the real possibility of heat stroke. So keeping reasonably cool on the bike is very important. That's why mesh is so popular.

[lgk]

I like a layered defense as well.

Having good gear, and insurance
is the life vessel, in case all other defenses fail.

[LNasty]

How is your friend doing? any new gruesome pics?

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

You got that right. I like gear, but only if its actually effective.

So why don't you wear boots with ankle protection? Those are effective.

Yes, it was only 83 today, and not humid. Today was great. But the better part of the last few weeks, it was 75 at night followed by 90+ with an 80% chance of rain (which it did, every day) and I still felt fine in leather or textile. That's still heat stroke territory, that's nothing special to FL.

I'm a fan of being comfortable with whatever level of protection that you wear. I'm not a fan of telling people to sacrifice significant protection for a little more breeze, just because glass cuts through everything. I like small mesh/breathable panels. I don't like jackets that are all mesh. They just don't cut it, and frankly, they don't feel any better when moving to me.