Opinions please... 650R Rear Wheel Conversion

[dubojr1]

There has been a couple guys out there that have completed a larger rim upgrade so our 250's can use a larger rear tire without pinching the sidewalls or decreasing handling. My question for you guys is would it "hijacking" their design to come up with a kit that could be sold in the US to lower the cost of the kit. I would at least like to do a kit for myself but once I go thru the fabricating process, it would be easy to produce additional kits to be sold.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

[revstriker]

Why? Unless the larger tire would somehow give you better control, what is the point, other than looks?

As for if it would sell, it probably would as there are plenty of people who would probably buy it just for looks, even if it decreased their control.

[Flashmonkey]

You wouldn't necessarily be 'hijacking' their design, as I'm sure your setup will be different than theirs. Whether they can sue you over this or not is another question, though.

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by revstriker

Why? Unless the larger tire would somehow give you better control, what is the point, other than looks?

As for if it would sell, it probably would as there are plenty of people who would probably buy it just for looks, even if it decreased their control.

Looks is a major factor but this is the right way to gain the 150 tire that a lot of people seem to be looking for.

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by Flashmonkey

You wouldn't necessarily be 'hijacking' their design, as I'm sure your setup will be different than theirs. Whether they can sue you over this or not is another question, though.

Yeah I don't think that is a factor. You are correct in that the principle is what would be the same but the design would be mine. Not sure how much the design would change as the the kit is mostly bushings. The caliper mount is what may have to be designed and fabricated.

[g21-30]

I don't think you have to worry about design patents, since the majority of the parts are sold by Kawi. It's just a matter of mixing and matching. Start with the Ninja 650R (ER-6?) complete rear wheel assembly, etc.

[Snake]

Sounds like a great idea.

[g21-30]

Originally Posted by dubojr1

Yeah I don't think that is a factor. You are correct in that the principle is what would be the same but the design would be mine. Not sure how much the design would change as the the kit is mostly bushings. The caliper mount is what may have to be designed and fabricated.

The OEM caliper mount just needs to be milled down and slotted.
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[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by g21-30

The OEM caliper mount just needs to be milled down and slotted.
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That would be a fix for me but I would need a design for a local CNC or milling shop to be able to produce kits.

[g21-30]

Check this out:

http://www.newninja.com/modification...fd8laqkopo21l3

Here are the parts that must be modifed:

Before:




After:

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by g21-30

Check this out:

http://www.newninja.com/modification...m-and-tire/15/

Yeah I have seen all those threads. All good information. My biggest concern at this point is to make sure the new rear will be aligned with the front so the bike rides true. Chain alignment is the next concern. Seems to me there would have to be some axle spacer changes along with the caliper mount be milled to center the 150 in the swing arm. BTW, the process has begun. I found a used caliper mount on eBay last night for $11 shipped so I can have an extra to play with. I also found a 09 cush drive hub for $23 shipped, 09 cush rubber for $9 shipped, and a 09 rear rotor for $43 shipped. I'm negotiating a deal now to hopefully get a 150 rim for $99 plus shipping. Still need a sprocket too so I need to determine my desired gearing and then order one of them. I will also be on the look out for some 150/60-17 tire deals from Bridgestone's (also would consider others) but I have a few thousand miles left on my current IRC tire so I have some time to get this all together. I also found a guy that works with me that has his own machine shop at home. I hoping me and him can work out something to keep my cost down.

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by g21-30

Check this out:

http://www.newninja.com/modification...fd8laqkopo21l3

Here are the parts that must be modifed:

Before:




After:

See...if you look at the after picture, the spacer that goes I believe in between the cush hub and the wheel looks like it has been machined down.

[dubojr1]

Here is the part layout.... It is just to the right of the cush hub.

[dubojr1]

I guess this is where all the work comes in. All this changes will have to be measured precisely for everything to work smoothly. I don't imagine the other guys would be willing to share this information. This could get more interesting trying to figure these measurements out.

[g21-30]

^^^^I'm sure the fellow (author of the link above) would share the info. Just need to register on the above site, so that you can PM him. He mentioned how much the caliper mount was milled in the link.

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by g21-30

^^^^I'm sure the fellow (author of the link above) would share the info. Just need to register on the above site, so that you can PM him. He mentioned how much the caliper mount was milled in the link.

Yeah I caught that. I might try to become a member there. I have a hard enough time following this forum, I know I can't keep up with two.

[g21-30]

I just registered and am waiting to be approved. Once that it is done, I will PM him.

[dubojr1]

Awesome... Thanks for your time and effort!

[dubojr1]

After reading everything again... looks like total change is 15mm. 11mm comes off the caliper mount so that leaves 4mm for the spacers. The only one that "appears" to change going by the pictures is the one to the right of the cush hub. I've ordered some spare parts from ebay to work with.

g21-30: Any word yet?

[TygaUSA.com]

Usually going to a wider rear tire is a decrease in handling...slower turning.

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by TygaUSA.com

Usually going to a wider rear tire is a decrease in handling...slower turning.

That would be true if you stick it on the stock 250 rim. This is replacing the 250 rim with a larger one first then adding the 150.

[kkim]

Originally Posted by dubojr1

That would be true if you stick it on the stock 250 rim. This is replacing the 250 rim with a larger one first then adding the 150.

that would still slow turning.

[TygaUSA.com]

Originally Posted by dubojr1

That would be true if you stick it on the stock 250 rim. This is replacing the 250 rim with a larger one first then adding the 150.

Can you explain that? Why does the width of the wheel make a difference?

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by TygaUSA.com

Can you explain that? Why does the width of the wheel make a difference?

opps... I guess the wider tire would slow the turning. I guess my point was there will be no pinching with the wider rim.

Thanks kkim!

[kkim]

Jason,

as long as you advertise the kit as a cosmetic upgrade, I don't think you would have any problems selling these. most people seem to want to look better than to actually build a better handling bike, anyway.

[TygaUSA.com]

Originally Posted by dubojr1

opps... I guess the wider tire would slow the turning. I guess my point was there will be no pinching with the wider rim.

Thanks kkim!

It is going to slow turn in, add un-sprung weight and rob horsepower... but if you want to do it for an upgrade to look of the bike their is certainly nothing wrong with that.

Many guys will run a 160 rear on the NSR's and other small bikes that came with a 150 because it "looks better" but it really does slow down the turning, however on a street bike this may not be a big deal to most!

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by kkim

Jason,

as long as you advertise the kit as a cosmetic upgrade, I don't think you would have any problems selling these. most people seem to want to look better than to actually build a better handling bike, anyway.

Thank you again sir!

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by TygaUSA.com

It is going to slow turn in, add un-sprung weight and rob horsepower... but if you want to do it for an upgrade to look of the bike their is certainly nothing wrong with that.

Many guys will run a 160 rear on the NSR's and other small bikes that came with a 150 because it "looks better" but it really does slow down the turning, however on a street bike this may not be a big deal to most!

There was a write-up on it somewhere that says the replacement rim actually weighs a little less but I have yet to prove that. I know the tires will have different weights too so we will see what the overall outcome is.

BTW... the ninja is not my canyon cutter. I take the 1000RR out for that. The 250 is my commuter and "style" is what I am after.

[dubojr1]

Here's a thought. Since wider tires always slows turn in and degrades handling, why do all supersport bikes have 180+ rear tires. Can I put a 130 rear on my 1000RR to improve its handling?

[TygaUSA.com]

Originally Posted by dubojr1

Here's a thought. Since wider tires always slows turn in and degrades handling, why do all supersport bikes have 180+ rear tires. Can I put a 130 rear on my 1000RR to improve its handling?

Many bikes come with a 190, and lots of people like myself run a 180 instead!

[g21-30]

Originally Posted by dubojr1

After reading everything again... looks like total change is 15mm. 11mm comes off the caliper mount so that leaves 4mm for the spacers. The only one that "appears" to change going by the pictures is the one to the right of the cush hub. I've ordered some spare parts from ebay to work with.

g21-30: Any word yet?

Still not approved on that forum.

The parts page for each wheel on Kawi's site gives the dimensions (thickness and length) of all the components involved!

The 650 center sleeve (not correct name), i.e. the long cylindrical pipe (92143) in the above picture is 133 mm, while the 250 version is 111 mm. The 650 sleeve (42036) is 23 mm and the 250 verison is 25 mm. The 650 collar (92152B) is 18 mm, while the 250 (42032) is 13 mm.

We need to know the assembled thickness of the 650 wheel (to the edge of the bearings), as well as the 250. Obviously these must be made equal, with the appropriate offset, as needed for chain alignment!

As stated in the previous mentioned thread, you can achieve better handling (performance) simply by switching to the factory size RADIAL tires. Seems the cheaper way to go!

[dubojr1]

I'm thinking the 650R cush hub will be a variable also. If it is wider then it will vary the offset for the chain right?

[Alex]

Originally Posted by dubojr1

Can I put a 130 rear on my 1000RR to improve its handling?

If you pulled two (and maybe 3) spark plug wires, sure! The faster a bike can change direction from full lean one side to full lean the other side, the faster it's going to get around a track, given another bike with equal power.

Basically, the narrowest tire possible, that still provides enough of a contact patch to allow the available hp of the bike to hook up, is the sweet spot. It's why 125GP bikes have tiny tires, yet as the hp goes up in other classes the tires get wider and wider. It's not a style thing, it's just a matter of matching up the available power to the available grip. A tire that is larger than necessary to manage the available power, will result in a slower bike all around.

[g21-30]

Originally Posted by Alex

If you pulled two (and maybe 3) spark plug wires, sure!

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by Alex

If you pulled two (and maybe 3) spark plug wires, sure! The faster a bike can change direction from full lean one side to full lean the other side, the faster it's going to get around a track, given another bike with equal power.

Basically, the narrowest tire possible, that still provides enough of a contact patch to allow the available hp of the bike to hook up, is the sweet spot. It's why 125GP bikes have tiny tires, yet as the hp goes up in other classes the tires get wider and wider. It's not a style thing, it's just a matter of matching up the available power to the available grip. A tire that is larger than necessary to manage the available power, will result in a slower bike all around.

You mean you guys are not slipping all over the place???

It's official... green is faster!

Yeah I think I would have to admit that it is style this time. I ran out of HP mods. Hmmmm, is there a nitrous kit for this things? Take it easy, just kidding! I do however think that I would be more likely to push the lil 250 to its max knowing I have a larger contact patch. Maybe its style/mental.

[g21-30]

Originally Posted by dubojr1

You mean you guys are not slipping all over the place???

It's official... green is faster!

Yeah I think I would have to admit that it is style this time. I ran out of HP mods. Hmmmm, is there a nitrous kit for this things? Take it easy, just kidding! I do however think that I would be more likely to push the lil 250 to its max knowing I have a larger contact patch. Maybe its style/mental.

Yeh, I know you've been smoking some of the same stuff kkim smokes, if you really think green is faster!

How about a turbo? It's already been done..

I see that you watched the "Radial Tire Video":

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=54293

Have you seen Gary Jaehne's comments in?:

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2

I think these 2 guys (Radial video and Gary) probably push the 250 harder than 99% of the bikers out there, but I've only been riding a couple of years, so take that with alot of grains of salt!

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by g21-30

Yeh, I know you've been smoking some of the same stuff kkim smokes, if you really think green is faster!

How about a turbo? It's already been done..

I see that you watched the "Radial Tire Video":

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=54293

Have you seen Gary Jaehne's comments in?:

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2

I think these 2 guys (Radial video and Gary) probably push the 250 harder than 99% of the bikers out there, but I've only been riding a couple of years, so take that with alot of grains of salt!

I'll make it a point to read all parts of Gary's stuff. Just a quick scan thru it proves it to be interesting.

Any idea on how we can get some measurements from a 650 wheel hub? I should be able to get the 250 measurements shortly. I think I'm gonna "mock-up" the wheel on my wifes bike and leave mine for riding since she rarely rides hers. That reminds me... maybe its time to sell the red one since it's slower

[g21-30]

Originally Posted by dubojr1

Any idea on how we can get some measurements from a 650 wheel hub?

That will come when I'm accepted on the other forum, which I'm going to check now.

Update: Still not accepted.

[dubojr1]

Ok. Well my 650R rim will be in today according to UPS. Where do you think the measurements should start. I can remove the 250 wheel to measure today too. Should we start with outside of bearing to outside of bearing on each wheel? I may have to go by a larger caliper for this project. I only have a 6".

It will be a few days before the other parts start coming in as they are coming by USPS. Hopefully everything will be in by next weekend following this holiday weekend.

[g21-30]

Outside to outside, i.e. where the edge of the swingarm touches on each side. You could bypass purchasing calipers by using a couple of straight edges and measuring thru the wheel the distance between the straight edges. Of course, someone (Wife?) else would need to hold the straight edges in place, while you measure.

You probably should measure each individual component, bearings, etc.

I would lean more toward purchasing a 45T 650R sprocket, thus no filling and drilling. Also, buy the bearings mentioned that allow using the bearings without the sleeves....minor money.