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Old July 7th, 2019, 02:03 PM   #1
wtfemery
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what could a torn carb diaphragm cause?

So, I bought a 2006 250r off my brother, and he cleaned the carbs and did a few other things before selling it to to me in unridable condition still. He gave me a few ideas of what to fix and one of them was that the tiny rubber gasket on one of the idle/mixture screws was missing, so i ordered a new set and planned on recleaning the carbs and adding new o rings. Well, once i took the carb apart, i noticed a little chunk tearing off of one of the two large diaphragms. Iíve attached a photo of what it looks like. Iíve halted the reassembly to order a new one, where the cheapest price for a new part was $80. sheesh!

Anyways, iím wondering if that tear could cause the problems iíve been having or it it was a result of the other o ring missing.

Basically, the bike has a bad idle and will only stay running with the choke on halfway for a few minutes before dying and not wanting to start again. i tried cranking it up the other day and i made it one block and absolutely could not start it again. (i tried to start it for about 5 minutes, probably flooding the crap out of it)

today when i pulled the bike out to take the carb off, i noticed fuel pouring out of the air box. I think i left the petcock open overnight but that shouldnít have leaked so much. I apparently lost at least a gallon maybe two in a day. Was it just from me flooding now it or could fuel somehow leak through the diaphragm in the carb into the airbox?
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Old July 7th, 2019, 03:47 PM   #2
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Hi Emery and welcome to Ninjette!

You've got multiple issues, so let's address them individually:

1. spark plugs and gap - Pull plugs and measure their gaps. Post picture of their condition. Make sure they are not Champion spark plugs, which can easily destroy your engine if you use them.

2. petcock - should only flow when engine's running. Disconnect hoses from carbs and test by applying vacuum on smaller hose on petcock to start flow from big hose. Remove vacuum, does fuel-hose stop flowing? Might be worth disassembling and seeing if there's some grit on sealing surface keeping plunger from stopping fuel-flow. Also stretching diaphragm spring sometimes help it seal better. If these efforts aren't sufficient, you can get petcock rebuild kit with new seals and filters will restore 100% functionality. https://www.ebay.com/itm/323531028088

3. new slide diaphragms. Luckily you can replace just rubber part. https://www.ebay.com/itm/332406608600 Trick to replacing is soak in 180F hot-water for about 5-minutes. Then stretch diaphragm sideways so inner opening is long slit. This allows you to slide it off and on centre part of slide. I recommend making holder that grips slide in vise to make diaphragm replacement easier. I didn't get pictures of this procedure, will do next time I perform it.

4. carb-rebuild. Float-valves aren't sealing off fuel-flow. Most likely need float-valves replaced and float-bowl o-rings as well along with those pilot-screw O-rings you ordered. Very likely that jets and fuel-circuits are clogged as well. Note that "carb cleaners" don't actually do anything nowadays after removal of chlorinated compounds. You'll need ultrasonic soaking with much more reactive solvents along with mechanical flossing with guitar wire. Complete refurb job will restore factory-fresh running condition like when it left showroom floor.


Search for "clean carbs ducatiman" on this forum to find similar issues as yours and their simple resolution.
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Old July 7th, 2019, 09:39 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Hi Emery and welcome to Ninjette!

You've got multiple issues, so let's address them individually:

1. spark plugs and gap - Pull plugs and measure their gaps. Post picture of their condition. Make sure they are not Champion spark plugs, which can easily destroy your engine if you use them.

2. petcock - should only flow when engine's running. Disconnect hoses from carbs and test by applying vacuum on smaller hose on petcock to start flow from big hose. Remove vacuum, does fuel-hose stop flowing? Might be worth disassembling and seeing if there's some grit on sealing surface keeping plunger from stopping fuel-flow. Also stretching diaphragm spring sometimes help it seal better. If these efforts aren't sufficient, you can get petcock rebuild kit with new seals and filters will restore 100% functionality. https://www.ebay.com/itm/323531028088

3. new slide diaphragms. Luckily you can replace just rubber part. https://www.ebay.com/itm/332406608600 Trick to replacing is soak in 180F hot-water for about 5-minutes. Then stretch diaphragm sideways so inner opening is long slit. This allows you to slide it off and on centre part of slide. I recommend making holder that grips slide in vise to make diaphragm replacement easier. I didn't get pictures of this procedure, will do next time I perform it.

4. carb-rebuild. Float-valves aren't sealing off fuel-flow. Most likely need float-valves replaced and float-bowl o-rings as well along with those pilot-screw O-rings you ordered. Very likely that jets and fuel-circuits are clogged as well. Note that "carb cleaners" don't actually do anything nowadays after removal of chlorinated compounds. You'll need ultrasonic soaking with much more reactive solvents along with mechanical flossing with guitar wire. Complete refurb job will restore factory-fresh running condition like when it left showroom floor.


Search for "clean carbs ducatiman" on this forum to find similar issues as yours and their simple resolution.
thanks for the reply, the diaphragm is already on its way, the whole part as opposed to just the rubber part was only $30 more, so i just got the whole thing to avoid possibly tearing it.

the petcock does just flow out on its own when i turn it to on with no vacuum. iíll take a look at it and the spark plugs when the new diaphragm gets in on thursday.

Iíll probably send out the carbs to ducatiman as that sounds like the least headache for me. His prices are reasonable.
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Old July 8th, 2019, 01:32 PM   #4
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I am seeing lots of new (not OEM, but close) petcock assemblies on ebay for only $10-$20. Honestly if it can hold up for a year or two iíd be happy. Should I just go with one of those?
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Old July 8th, 2019, 01:49 PM   #5
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Those won't fit. The body is too short and puts lever behind side of gas-tank. Also due to lever hitting inside of gas-tank, the sealing surface won't match on bottom of tank and you'll have huge gap that leaks.

As you will find, there's very few "bolt-ons fixes" that will work. All require lots of labour-of-love, hours and hours of scrubbing, cleaning, cutting and welding. Shops are the worse as yutes working there that have no experience with anything older than 5-year old bikes. They don't even know what carburetors are, much less know how to work on one. It's like bringing in an 8-track or cassette tape and asking them to put it on your phone. They have no clue where to even start. They'll ask you things like, "I can't find USB port on this tape?".


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Old July 8th, 2019, 01:58 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Those won't fit. The body is too short and puts lever behind side of gas-tank. Also due to lever hitting inside of gas-tank, the sealing surface won't match on bottom of tank and you'll have huge gap that leaks.

As you will find, there's very few "bolt-ons fixes" that will work. All require lots of labour-of-love, hours and hours of scrubbing, cleaning, cutting and welding. Shops are the worse as yutes working there that have no experience with anything older than 5-year old bikes. They don't even know what carburetors are, much less know how to work on one. It's like bringing in an 8-track or cassette tape and asking them to put it on your phone. They have no clue where to even start. They'll ask you things like, "I can't find USB port on this tape?".


Thatís a shame. Iím going to take it apart and clean i up tonight and see if that helps. The gas tank was very rusty when I got it and iíve since cleaned it out as much as i could with vinegar.
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Old July 8th, 2019, 02:04 PM   #7
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Petcock may be clogged with rust. Notice in upper photo I posted above, two filters on inlet tubes of petcock was missing on my bike. You'll want to replace those with new ones along with small in-line filter inside fuel-hose just before carbs. Open end faces tank and closed-end aims towards carbs.



Once you get tank as clean of rust as you can, you'll want to coat it to prevent rust from coming back. Many products on market for that. I like POR15 version myself. https://www.por15.com/POR-15-Fuel-Tank-Sealer. Many people have had good luck with plain 'ol fibreglass epoxy resin diluted slightly with acetone.
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Old July 8th, 2019, 03:48 PM   #8
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I highly recommend not using the original type tiny screen filters that are in the line at the carbs, but rather a small pleated paper filter in the rubber hose between the petcock and the carbs. A pleated paper filter will do a better job of filtering, will filter out a lot more stuff before it clogs, and you can see when it needs changing.
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Old July 8th, 2019, 08:32 PM   #9
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So, i took the petcock apart and the inside was pretty gummed up. weirdly, before i took it apart, i flipped it to on and no gas came out. Guess it has a mind of its own. Anyways, i cleaned it up and it seems to be working fine. the mesh filters were in good condition too. I also have an in-line filter sitting around that iíll put in the fuel line once i get the bike running (as to not accidentally cause some other problem lol)
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Old July 9th, 2019, 04:53 AM   #10
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So, i took the petcock apart and the inside was pretty gummed up. weirdly, before i took it apart, i flipped it to on and no gas came out.
On a pregen, the petcock is vacuum controlled. Apply vacuum, receive gas. Remove vacuum, gas stops flowing.
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Old July 9th, 2019, 09:30 AM   #11
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On a pregen, the petcock is vacuum controlled. Apply vacuum, receive gas. Remove vacuum, gas stops flowing.
i know, i just mentioned because usually gas flows out because it was messed up, but it decided to temporarily fix itself lol
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Old July 10th, 2019, 08:21 AM   #12
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I pulled the spark plugs today. This is what they look like. very dirty, and the right one is cleaned than the left. hope thatís not a bad sign. They say Japan on them so i wonder if theyíre the originals. Going to go pick some new ones up now. The diaphragm is arriving this afternoon so I may have everything together tonight. fingers crossed!
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Old July 10th, 2019, 12:21 PM   #13
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I pulled the spark plugs today. This is what they look like. very dirty, and the right one is cleaned than the left. hope thatís not a bad sign. They say Japan on them so i wonder if theyíre the originals. Going to go pick some new ones up now. The diaphragm is arriving this afternoon so I may have everything together tonight. fingers crossed!
They don't look like that because they're old, it's because it's been running too rich.
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Old July 10th, 2019, 01:09 PM   #14
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Most likely too rich because float-valves are not shutting off gas flow, making float levels too high resulting in rich mixtures. Too much gas from rich mixtures will wash oil off cylinder walls and cause premature wear and tear on engine.

Don't run that engine until carbs have been overhauled.
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Old July 10th, 2019, 01:24 PM   #15
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yep. gotta be the float valves. I just put it all back together and tried starting it and gas poured out the airbox as i cranked. damn, thought i did them correctly. off to ducatiman they go then.
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Old July 16th, 2019, 09:08 PM   #16
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in case anyone wanted an update, i sent the carbs to ducatiman and he realized there are two thick shims on the needles. don’t know why they were put on there as everything else looks stock. so he’s leaving them off in an effort to reduce the number of things that could be causing me problems. The float assembly/float valves still seem to be my main (only?) problem.

I changed the oil and what do ya know it was filled with tons of gasoline. and the airbox has some oil in it because of so much gas in the engine spilling everything out through the crankcase hole.

on another note, while changing the oil in my driveway i learned that, in a panic to get rid of a small oil stain on the concrete (because the oil sprayed out of the drain plug like it was a pressure washer because it was so thinned with gas), you shouldn’t spray it down with the hose. because then, instead of a small black spot, you have a very large brown stain going all the way down the driveway. dammit lol.
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Old July 17th, 2019, 01:21 AM   #17
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Haaahahahhaahhhhh!!!!

https://www.truevalue.com/garage-driveway-cleaner-gal

Most likely bike’s that’s been sitting around long enough to have petcock and float-valve issues is gonna have clogged jets and fuel circuits as well. Gordon does an amazing job restoring carbs and not much is gonna sneak by him. Your bike will be transformed! I’ll run like it did when it first rolled off showroom floor!!!
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Old July 19th, 2019, 04:26 PM   #18
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Great news! got the carbs back and it rides like a dream! super happy and relieved!
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Old July 19th, 2019, 04:41 PM   #19
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Glad it worked out well!
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Old July 19th, 2019, 07:59 PM   #20
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Great news! got the carbs back and it rides like a dream! super happy and relieved!
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Glad it worked out well!
Another awesome job by ducatiman!!!
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Old July 22nd, 2019, 04:09 PM   #21
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So, uhh, they joy was short lived... I started the bike up today and gas started pouring out of the overflow line from the carbs. Then, the idle got worse and worse. I revved it a little bit and the fuel stopped leaking out. Then i shuit off for a few seconds and then could not get it to restart.

Last time the gas was pouring out of the airbox and into the engine. now it’s pouring out of the overflow line. Better? i suppose? but could it still be an issue with the floats? i really hope not because i left all my tools at my other house when i rode it here... and i kinda expected it all to be over with.
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Old July 23rd, 2019, 06:12 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by wtfemery View Post
So, uhh, they joy was short lived... I started the bike up today and gas started pouring out of the overflow line from the carbs. Then, the idle got worse and worse. I revved it a little bit and the fuel stopped leaking out. Then i shuit off for a few seconds and then could not get it to restart.

Last time the gas was pouring out of the airbox and into the engine. now itís pouring out of the overflow line. Better? i suppose? but could it still be an issue with the floats? i really hope not because i left all my tools at my other house when i rode it here... and i kinda expected it all to be over with.
That's telling you the float valves are not seating. Most likely a piece of something stuck between the needle and seat, holding it open.

Check the tank and petcock screens, and make sure there is the small inline filter at the carb inlet. Drain the floatbowls and look at what comes out.

Did you check the float height when you had things apart? Were the float valves replaced?
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Old July 23rd, 2019, 06:49 AM   #23
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I did the carbs and petcock. Levels, floats wet tested fine.

New float valves (of course) inline fuel screen is present, as well as both petcock screens

I'm in contact with OP, I have something we'ere going to try (a reset of sorts)
Await his response, he's likely at work. And he's got my cell # too

I'll be back....Doc appoint this morning.
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Old July 29th, 2019, 10:00 PM   #24
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alright, so I've got the carbs back again and I'll be putting them back on the bike in the morning. I'm in contact with ducatiman and I'll see what tips he has to contribute, but I suspect the bike will run OK for at least a few days like last time. He put new float valves in again. Hopefully the last ones were just defective but I am open to suggestions to help prevent this from happening again.

After the troubleshooting didn't work (before i shipped them back off for him to check out) neither of us really knew what it could be. And when he tested them there were no obvious issues related to the overflow.

a carb-sync was on my list of to-do's (I don't know if it's needed but my brother, who sold me the bike, said it may be needed from what he learned online. I wouldn't say he's the most knowledgeable about the bike but it's worth noting) and I have the materials required for the write-up guide somewhere here on the forums, So I'll probably check that at least. Would that affect carb fuel levels? any other suggestions are well appreciated.

perhaps the plastic floats themselves are warped and need to be replaced? I really don't know if that could be a possible issue.

Also I really do appreciate ducatiman's help so far. Without it, the bike would have never run (even if it was only for a few days lol).
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Old July 30th, 2019, 05:42 AM   #25
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I synched throttle plates during my service....standard procedure always. And the floats are not warped. I did a further procedure way above and beyond, I'll get in contact, I've got another preventative idea as well.
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