ninjette.org

Go Back   ninjette.org > 1986 - 2007 Ninja 250R > 1986 - 2007 Ninja 250R Tech Talk

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 10th, 2019, 08:22 AM   #41
greg737
-
 
Name: -
Location: -
Join Date: May 2009

Motorcycle(s): -

Posts: A lot.
I've finally gotten around to doing my "New Gen" to "Pre Gen" clutch assembly swap.

Originally purchased the entire used "New Gen" clutch assembly off Ebay for a reasonable price:


Everything about the used (2009) clutch assembly was great except for the "drive" plates, two of them showed some blue-ing. So I ordered replacement drive plates for this project.

People always like to know how much the parts weigh, so here's a pic of the complete "Pre Gen" clutch assembly:


Here's a pic of the complete "New Gen" clutch assembly:


The difference in weight between the two is:
"Pre Gen" clutch assembly = 3069 grams (6.766 pounds)
"New Gen" clutch assembly = 2891 grams (6.374 pounds)

So the "New Gen" clutch assembly is 0.392 pounds lighter. This is nice to know, a lighter clutch assembly will help the engine rev more freely.

Here's a picture of the difference in the clutch actuator rod:


As you can see the "New Gen" rod has a shorter top section than the "Pre Gen" rod.

I should have my 2005 EX250 finished and ready to ride by this afternoon.
greg737 is offline   Reply With Quote




Old July 11th, 2019, 12:13 AM   #42
Mohawk
ninjette.org guru
 
Mohawk's Avatar
 
Name: Chris
Location: Bristol, UK
Join Date: Feb 2016

Motorcycle(s): ZZR250, VFR800

Posts: 377
I didn’t have a new gen rod, so never compared them. I just used a 2mm washer on the old rod to take the slack out so that it would lift the inner basket, which has worked fine.

You will now find that the pre-gen knock of death has gone !
Mohawk is offline   Reply With Quote


Old October 22nd, 2019, 08:40 AM   #43
SibSerge
ninjette.org member
 
Name: Sergey
Location: Ontario, GTA
Join Date: Oct 2019

Motorcycle(s): Ninja ZZR250 (EX250H)

Posts: 47
@Mohawk and @greg737
Hi Chris and Greg.
Thank you for all the info you have provided.
I am planning to do the same swap this winter. My current clutch is rattling and I decided to go with the swap rather than putting a new basket for the old gen as those are very expensive new and they will still be prone to the failure.

I found a used full clutch assembly from 2008 250. I am also getting the oil pump sprocket separately.
Now that I started reading the service manual one thing bugs me: the service manual mentions matching the clutch housing gear - the big one to the crankshaft gear. Per the manual they are colour coded and have different part numbers. I have no idea what it is exactly that is different between the colour codes.

Was this a consideration at all when you were doing the swap and was it an issue for you at all ? Or that is what have to be done in the perfect world and I can ignore it.

Thanks in advance.
SibSerge is online now   Reply With Quote


Old October 22nd, 2019, 09:07 AM   #44
greg737
-
 
Name: -
Location: -
Join Date: May 2009

Motorcycle(s): -

Posts: A lot.
I'm not sure what you're referencing.

I'm not at home right now so I can't look at my EX250 Service Manual to figure out what you're saying about the engine oil pump.

The clutch basket assembly has one big gear on its backside which meshes with a gear on the crankshaft. Kawasaki hasn't changed the tooth-count on either of these gears throughout the entire EX250 history (pre-gen, new-gen, and 300s) so the clutch basket assemblies from each generation can be retrofitted as has been demonstrated by owners (I understand that retrofitting a 300 slipper-type clutch requires also using the 300 clutch cover to provide enough clearance space for the slightly larger assembly).
greg737 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old October 22nd, 2019, 10:18 AM   #45
SibSerge
ninjette.org member
 
Name: Sergey
Location: Ontario, GTA
Join Date: Oct 2019

Motorcycle(s): Ninja ZZR250 (EX250H)

Posts: 47
Thanks Greg, That was my assumption its supposed to be the same accross the board. But for some reason they have these different colours. But if that worked for you without matching anything its probably just minor stuff. I will still go with the modification and will see how that goes.

On a side note, are you in Canada (judjing by the flag on your pics)?. Did you find a good source for clutch plates for the new gen?
SibSerge is online now   Reply With Quote


Old October 22nd, 2019, 10:44 AM   #46
SibSerge
ninjette.org member
 
Name: Sergey
Location: Ontario, GTA
Join Date: Oct 2019

Motorcycle(s): Ninja ZZR250 (EX250H)

Posts: 47
Attaching this page of the manual that I was referencing above...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Clutch.jpg (115.6 KB, 14 views)
SibSerge is online now   Reply With Quote


Old October 22nd, 2019, 11:17 AM   #47
greg737
-
 
Name: -
Location: -
Join Date: May 2009

Motorcycle(s): -

Posts: A lot.
Wow, I've never seen that page before, where does that come from? I don't recognize that page from the Pre-Gen Service Manual or the Service Manual Supplement for the Pre-Gen bikes, is it taken from a Next-Gen Service Manual?

Anyway, that's an eye-opener right there. I never knew there was any variation in the crankshaft-to-clutch basket gearing. Makes me wonder if I was just lucky with my purchase of a 2009 clutch for my 2005. As far as I could tell the fitment of the new clutch was perfect with no excess lash at all (and many miles since the work I can say the engine is very happy).

I put new OEM Kawasaki friction plates into the 2009 clutch and kept the drive plates that came with it. I used EBC springs but changed back to the OEM springs because my daughter rides the bike a lot and the EBC springs made the clutch lever pull force too high for her to be comfortable on long rides.

No, I'm not in Canada, that beer sleeve comes from the Canadian Formula 1 race in Montreal, I've gone to the race in both 2018 and this year, good times.
greg737 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old October 22nd, 2019, 12:24 PM   #48
SibSerge
ninjette.org member
 
Name: Sergey
Location: Ontario, GTA
Join Date: Oct 2019

Motorcycle(s): Ninja ZZR250 (EX250H)

Posts: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by greg737 View Post
Wow, I've never seen that page before, where does that come from? I don't recognize that page from the Pre-Gen Service Manual or the Service Manual Supplement for the Pre-Gen bikes, is it taken from a Next-Gen Service Manual?

Anyway, that's an eye-opener right there. I never knew there was any variation in the crankshaft-to-clutch basket gearing. Makes me wonder if I was just lucky with my purchase of a 2009 clutch for my 2005. As far as I could tell the fitment of the new clutch was perfect with no excess lash at all (and many miles since the work I can say the engine is very happy).

I put new OEM Kawasaki friction plates into the 2009 clutch and kept the drive plates that came with it. I used EBC springs but changed back to the OEM springs because my daughter rides the bike a lot and the EBC springs made the clutch lever pull force too high for her to be comfortable on long rides.

No, I'm not in Canada, that beer sleeve comes from the Canadian Formula 1 race in Montreal, I've gone to the race in both 2018 and this year, good times.
Got you, thanks ! I looked closer and did realize that was a sleeve from the MTL F1 Race - lucky you

Yes that pic comes from a service manual for a new gen , 1st year I believe (published in Nov 2007).

I hope I do not have excess lash on mine either but time will tell. The clutch is still in US. I will probably work on it in November. I will measure the lash as well to see what the difference is. Hopefully it will not be significant.

Thanks for the info on the EBC springs. I would actually prefer the clutch pull to be a bit harder than the existing so I will try the EBC springs. I will check how much the OEM plates are at the dealer and they are not overly expensive compared to EBC I will go with those.

Thanks Greg
SibSerge is online now   Reply With Quote


Old October 22nd, 2019, 01:06 PM   #49
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: SF East Bay
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T, Ninja250R racer, Ninja250R street bike, EX250F#1, EX250F#2, EX250E, VF500F, CBR600RR

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
I went to F1 at Trois-Rivières in... 2007! So amazing to see it live!!!

Both Barnett & EBC clutch springs are cheaper than OEM springs.

https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B00230MCS8/
https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B001IUMCA2/

Ignore Amazon's compatibility test, they list everything they haven't tested as not compatible.
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


Old October 22nd, 2019, 01:40 PM   #50
SibSerge
ninjette.org member
 
Name: Sergey
Location: Ontario, GTA
Join Date: Oct 2019

Motorcycle(s): Ninja ZZR250 (EX250H)

Posts: 47
Thank you!
SibSerge is online now   Reply With Quote


Old October 29th, 2019, 12:24 PM   #51
SibSerge
ninjette.org member
 
Name: Sergey
Location: Ontario, GTA
Join Date: Oct 2019

Motorcycle(s): Ninja ZZR250 (EX250H)

Posts: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by greg737 View Post
Wow, I've never seen that page before, where does that come from? I don't recognize that page from the Pre-Gen Service Manual or the Service Manual Supplement for the Pre-Gen bikes, is it taken from a Next-Gen Service Manual?

.No, I'm not in Canada, that beer sleeve comes from the Canadian Formula 1 race in Montreal, I've gone to the race in both 2018 and this year, good times.
Greg,

Were your basket springs rattling a bit? I have received the clutch assembly for the new gen today and I see that 2 of them are tight, two of them are shorter a bit and they rattle a bit and 2 more are even shorter and also rattle.

If they were all loose I would assume they are "tired" but to me it looks they might be designed this way to progressively increase the resistance similar to the old gen where 2 rubber bushings were tight and others are loose.
SibSerge is online now   Reply With Quote


Old October 29th, 2019, 12:38 PM   #52
greg737
-
 
Name: -
Location: -
Join Date: May 2009

Motorcycle(s): -

Posts: A lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SibSerge View Post
Greg,

Were your basket springs rattling a bit? I have received the clutch assembly for the new gen today and I see that 2 of them are tight, two of them are shorter a bit and they rattle a bit and 2 more are even shorter and also rattle.

If they were all loose I would assume they are "tired" but to me it looks they might be designed this way to progressively increase the resistance similar to the old gen where 2 rubber bushings were tight and others are loose.
No, in the assembly that I purchased off of Ebay all the springs were tight under their bolts.

Did somebody put washers under some of the spring bolts? (the spring-rate reduction technique discussed earlier in this thread)
greg737 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old October 29th, 2019, 12:45 PM   #53
SibSerge
ninjette.org member
 
Name: Sergey
Location: Ontario, GTA
Join Date: Oct 2019

Motorcycle(s): Ninja ZZR250 (EX250H)

Posts: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by greg737 View Post
No, in the assembly that I purchased off of Ebay all the springs were tight under their bolts.

Did somebody put washers under some of the spring bolts? (the spring-rate reduction technique discussed earlier in this thread)
you might be thinking about the clutch pack compression springs ? I was referring to the damper springs that are inside the basket itself - they are held in place by tabs. Actually now I have re-examined it and I was a bit wrong (did a quick check before the meeting, sorry ), 3 springs have almost 0 play and 3 have about half a millimetre play. Those springs alternate , so they are evenly spaced. It would be strange if they got tired in a such a pattern.
SibSerge is online now   Reply With Quote


Old October 29th, 2019, 12:48 PM   #54
SibSerge
ninjette.org member
 
Name: Sergey
Location: Ontario, GTA
Join Date: Oct 2019

Motorcycle(s): Ninja ZZR250 (EX250H)

Posts: 47
This ....
Attached Images
File Type: png Screen Shot 2019-10-29 at 3.46.37 PM.png (38.7 KB, 20 views)
SibSerge is online now   Reply With Quote


Old October 29th, 2019, 01:00 PM   #55
greg737
-
 
Name: -
Location: -
Join Date: May 2009

Motorcycle(s): -

Posts: A lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SibSerge View Post
you might be thinking about the clutch pack compression springs ? I was referring to the damper springs that are inside the basket itself - they are held in place by tabs. Actually now I have re-examined it and I was a bit wrong (did a quick check before the meeting, sorry ), 3 springs have almost 0 play and 3 have about half a millimetre play. Those springs alternate , so they are evenly spaced. It would be strange if they got tired in a such a pattern.
Oh, now I get what you were referring to.

Yes, just like yours, my Ebay-purchased clutch assembly also had a few of the damper springs that rattled. Seemed fine/normal to me so I didn't worry and installed it in my bike. After a bunch of miles it seems to be happy.
greg737 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old October 29th, 2019, 01:25 PM   #56
SibSerge
ninjette.org member
 
Name: Sergey
Location: Ontario, GTA
Join Date: Oct 2019

Motorcycle(s): Ninja ZZR250 (EX250H)

Posts: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by greg737 View Post
Oh, now I get what you were referring to.

Yes, just like yours, my Ebay-purchased clutch assembly also had a few of the damper springs that rattled. Seemed fine/normal to me so I didn't worry and installed it in my bike. After a bunch of miles it seems to be happy.
Perfect, thanks for reassurance

I have ordered the new clutch springs and new friction plates today , both OEM, otherwise I have all other parts. Waiting for those to come then will try to do the swap.
SibSerge is online now   Reply With Quote


Old November 10th, 2019, 04:40 PM   #57
SibSerge
ninjette.org member
 
Name: Sergey
Location: Ontario, GTA
Join Date: Oct 2019

Motorcycle(s): Ninja ZZR250 (EX250H)

Posts: 47
Greg and Chris, Thank you for all your guidence and the details about upgrading the clutch. I have completed the upgrade this week. I used a clutch assembly from a 2008 Ex250. The assembly came with the rod so I used it. Although I have ordered oem plates and the springs the plates and the springs on the assembly that I received turned out to be almost brand new. The plates still had 95% of material and the springs were well in spec. So I decided to use them and kept the brand new parts for later.

Clutch worked right out of the box with no issues. The knocking has completely disappeared. Even on very low - 1000rpm its not existent.

I tested it on a driveway as the bike is not yet plated. I will do more thorough testing in Sping. It did pull really well, however. And I also felt the friction zone became wider. Probably due to newer friction plates.

Thanks again guys.

Last futzed with by SibSerge; November 10th, 2019 at 07:22 PM.
SibSerge is online now   Reply With Quote


Old November 10th, 2019, 06:56 PM   #58
greg737
-
 
Name: -
Location: -
Join Date: May 2009

Motorcycle(s): -

Posts: A lot.
Yes, the Next-Gen clutch assembly is better in all aspects (durability and feel)
greg737 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old November 11th, 2019, 04:08 AM   #59
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: SF East Bay
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T, Ninja250R racer, Ninja250R street bike, EX250F#1, EX250F#2, EX250E, VF500F, CBR600RR

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Hmm, i’m starting to get some low-RPM knocking on my pregen. Might upgrade clutch to newgen model as well.
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


Old November 11th, 2019, 07:30 AM   #60
greg737
-
 
Name: -
Location: -
Join Date: May 2009

Motorcycle(s): -

Posts: A lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Hmm, i’m starting to get some low-RPM knocking on my pregen. Might upgrade clutch to newgen model as well.
It's a satisfying upgrade to do on the bike, I'm enjoying my '05 more because of it.

The new Next-Gen clutch basket is slightly lighter than the Pre-Gen assembly so the engine is just a tiny bit more "frisky".
greg737 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old November 11th, 2019, 09:41 AM   #61
SibSerge
ninjette.org member
 
Name: Sergey
Location: Ontario, GTA
Join Date: Oct 2019

Motorcycle(s): Ninja ZZR250 (EX250H)

Posts: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Hmm, i’m starting to get some low-RPM knocking on my pregen. Might upgrade clutch to newgen model as well.
I would say it was fairly straightforward given all the details that the guys have provided. It added just 20 more minutes compared to a regular clutch plates replacement.

Make sure you also get the oil pump driving gear as it comes separate on the new gen. And if you can get that new pin from the new assembly that helps.

The friction plates come with square pads instead of radial cuts as in old gen. The first and the last friction plate have wider pads than those inside the pack.


Adding some details related to my own question above regarding color marking.

My basket came with a white color mark on the big gear. I found no markings on the shaft gear that it mates with. I guess it's a new generation thing. The gear did mate well with no perceived play.
SibSerge is online now   Reply With Quote


Reply





Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


Motorcycle Safety Foundation

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:44 PM.


remote server monitor
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Except where otherwise noted, all site contents are © Copyright 2019 ninjette.org, All rights reserved.