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Old April 1st, 2015, 04:23 PM   #1681
Kasatka
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I'll give that a shot. Other than this kit, I haven't modded the bike at all. All original equipment.

Edit: Holy god. Went out, key on, disconnected computer, wait 5 seconds, reconnected, key off. Key on, try to start bike. The ****er backfired, nearly shat myself. Tried again, after 3 seconds of cranking, BAM! again.

Something is seriously wrong here. I gotta emphasize, this bike ran perfectly fine with this kit installed for a month, and I changed nothing, and now these issues. What is going on with the computer in this kit.
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Old April 1st, 2015, 06:02 PM   #1682
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Aren't you supposed to run in rich mode before using eco mode?
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Old April 1st, 2015, 07:04 PM   #1683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasatka View Post
I'll give that a shot. Other than this kit, I haven't modded the bike at all. All original equipment.

Edit: Holy god. Went out, key on, disconnected computer, wait 5 seconds, reconnected, key off. Key on, try to start bike. The ****er backfired, nearly shat myself. Tried again, after 3 seconds of cranking, BAM! again.

Something is seriously wrong here. I gotta emphasize, this bike ran perfectly fine with this kit installed for a month, and I changed nothing, and now these issues. What is going on with the computer in this kit.
did you switch it to eco mode? and yeah sounds like something else is going on like a vacuum hose is missing or cracked.
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Old April 1st, 2015, 07:05 PM   #1684
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Aren't you supposed to run in rich mode before using eco mode?
No. ECO mode sets up a map that it changes for the altitude, load, and driving style. Once thats set rich mode just makes the map a bit richer. But you can change the map to how you please as well.
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Old April 1st, 2015, 07:10 PM   #1685
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Originally Posted by Kasatka View Post
I'll give that a shot. Other than this kit, I haven't modded the bike at all. All original equipment.

Edit: Holy god. Went out, key on, disconnected computer, wait 5 seconds, reconnected, key off. Key on, try to start bike. The ****er backfired, nearly shat myself. Tried again, after 3 seconds of cranking, BAM! again.

Something is seriously wrong here. I gotta emphasize, this bike ran perfectly fine with this kit installed for a month, and I changed nothing, and now these issues. What is going on with the computer in this kit.
I went back into my old email and yeah you did the right way to reset the ecu to make it relearn everything. Something is up. I would check for leaks or something off. Make sure the butterflys are closing and allowing full vacuum.
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Old April 1st, 2015, 07:11 PM   #1686
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No. ECO mode sets up a map that it changes for the altitude, load, and driving style. Once thats set rich mode just makes the map a bit richer. But you can change the map to how you please as well.
Sorry I was thinking of closed loop mode so it doesn't pull data from the O2 sensors. May be something worth trying to rule out. The stock map should be pretty close to optimal so if it still runs bad you can rule out a faulty O2 sensor. Would have to be tried right after the reset/wipe.
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Old April 1st, 2015, 07:18 PM   #1687
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Sorry, That is the type of support responses I have been getting, totally inadequate and in decipherable. I believe he is telling you your base map is too rich but the real question is why. My bike was similar and I ended up setting the world value to .85. hat fixed mine but I have no explanation why the map was so far out. Good luck with support, I waited over a month and have no answers to my questions. Shame because it is a very versatile system.
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Old April 1st, 2015, 07:19 PM   #1688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EMSRacer07 View Post
did you switch it to eco mode? and yeah sounds like something else is going on like a vacuum hose is missing or cracked.
Yep, it is in ECO mode. I'll check the vacuum hoses tomorrow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swarfman64 View Post
Sorry, That is the type of support responses I have been getting, totally inadequate and in decipherable. I believe he is telling you your base map is too rich but the real question is why. My bike was similar and I ended up setting the world value to .85. hat fixed mine but I have no explanation why the map was so far out. Good luck with support, I waited over a month and have no answers to my questions. Shame because it is a very versatile system.
Thanks, I'll give that a shot. The language barrier is pretty frustrating... I know it's really hard to learn a second language well and I'm glad he tries to answer our questions at all, but I need precise specific details and most of them are getting lost in the broken English.
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Old April 18th, 2015, 03:55 PM   #1689
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Originally Posted by swarfman64 View Post
Sorry, That is the type of support responses I have been getting, totally inadequate and in decipherable. I believe he is telling you your base map is too rich but the real question is why. My bike was similar and I ended up setting the world value to .85. hat fixed mine but I have no explanation why the map was so far out. Good luck with support, I waited over a month and have no answers to my questions. Shame because it is a very versatile system.
I've been messing around in ProCAL looking for the value you changed and I'm not sure which one it is. I see one described as the "offset for manifold pressure sensor characteristics" and one as the "gradient for manifold pressure sensor characteristics". Was it one of these, or something else? My offset is 105.664 and my gradient is 188.641, and the ecotrons map sensor technical specs doc says those are the values it gets. Dunno if that's a generic value setting, or if it should be something else for the ninja 250 engine.
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Old April 18th, 2015, 05:19 PM   #1690
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Did another test ride. The bike wouldn't start at all, until I switched it to rich mode. Then it started after 8 or 9 seconds of cranking. I tried putting the laptop in a backpack to record procal data, but the serial to usb connector ecotrons sent seems to be bad quality, and anytime it was jiggled procal lost the connection.

The bike stayed running in rich mode, but only barely. It runs until I get to about 6000 rpms in second gear, and then it starts bogging down like crazy. The only difference is, this time, while in rich mode, when I pulled in the clutch and feathered the gas it recovered and didn't stall out, although it ran like ****. Before I reset the computer, whether in eco or rich mode, when I got to 6000 in second, it would bog down and stall out, and then when restarted, bog and sputter on idle, and die if I gave it any throttle whatsoever. Now I can get it to recover if I clutch in and feather the gas. If I try going over 6000 in second again, it will bog down again.

Is this the right thread to be asking for troubleshooting help, or is there a better one?
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Old April 18th, 2015, 10:43 PM   #1691
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasatka View Post
I've been messing around in ProCAL looking for the value you changed and I'm not sure which one it is. I see one described as the "offset for manifold pressure sensor characteristics" and one as the "gradient for manifold pressure sensor characteristics". Was it one of these, or something else? My offset is 105.664 and my gradient is 188.641, and the ecotrons map sensor technical specs doc says those are the values it gets. Dunno if that's a generic value setting, or if it should be something else for the ninja 250 engine.
Hi, the value I changed on mine is found under the injector setting box, the top value is injector size and the one below it is the one I changed. I fond recal its exact name but it is usually 1.00. Any change effects the mixture across the whole range. 1.10 would be 10% richer. 0.90 would be 10% leaner.
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Old July 2nd, 2015, 09:14 AM   #1692
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Updates on my kit problem: I fiddled with the idle air screws and procal. At 3.5 turns out, it seemed like I'd fixed the problem; when I test drove it around the block for 20 minutes it didn't bog down at all. Then I took it for a freeway test drive and it bogged down about 2 miles in. I pulled over, let it cool down, tried again, bogged down after a mile. Tried again, but kept it below 5500 rpms. The low rpms also kept the engine speed almost at cold. This time it stayed running for 5 more freeway miles, and didn't bog down til I pulled off the freeway and sat at a couple lights.

It seems like hotter engine temps are contributing to it bogging down. But it takes longer to do this since I opened the air screws up.

Does anyone know how many turns out the air screws are 'supposed' to have?

Also, any ideas on why hotter engine temps are causing this? I would think the fuel is vaporizing before the pump, but my lines are opaque black and I can't see it. If I took pics, could someone tell me if my setup is running too close to the engine block/transmission housing?

Would wrapping my lines with heat shield tape do any good, or would it be worthless?
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Old July 2nd, 2015, 09:38 AM   #1693
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How does your MAP Sensor read?
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Old July 2nd, 2015, 10:12 AM   #1694
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What value in procal do I need to check for that info?

When adjusting the air screws, fLc and fLc2 stayed around .75 pretty consistently, and uLsb and uLsb2 stayed higher than .45V.

Edit: It is a heat problem of some kind. Took it out around 1 pm, outdoor temp was 85F, bike wouldn't run more than a mile without bogging and dying. Engine temp wasn't even very high yet.

Last futzed with by Kasatka; July 2nd, 2015 at 05:12 PM.
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Old July 9th, 2015, 07:56 AM   #1695
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does the log show it cutting off at the switch point between the hot and cold maps?
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Old August 13th, 2015, 09:52 AM   #1696
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Bump

Okay, considering the Ecotron kit. I'm getting a lot of mixed signals from the tech threads, so...

...the Ecotron website has a link to 2012 posts (on this thread, amusingly) about how nifty the kit is and how much everybody likes it. They also make a huge deal about how the Gen. 2 parts are a huge upgrade. From the age of the link I suspect the Gen. 2 "upgrade" isn't a whole lot more recent than that.

So here's the point: would people generally recommend it, based on reliability and ease of use? Or is this one of those novelty mods that turns out to be more trouble than it's worth? I really like my '12, but I miss the smoothness of FI. However, I don't want to spend a week installing a lemon.

Thoughts?
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Old August 13th, 2015, 11:59 AM   #1697
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluidlogic View Post
Okay, considering the Ecotron kit. I'm getting a lot of mixed signals from the tech threads, so...

...the Ecotron website has a link to 2012 posts (on this thread, amusingly) about how nifty the kit is and how much everybody likes it. They also make a huge deal about how the Gen. 2 parts are a huge upgrade. From the age of the link I suspect the Gen. 2 "upgrade" isn't a whole lot more recent than that.

So here's the point: would people generally recommend it, based on reliability and ease of use? Or is this one of those novelty mods that turns out to be more trouble than it's worth? I really like my '12, but I miss the smoothness of FI. However, I don't want to spend a week installing a lemon.

Thoughts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by choneofakind View Post
Ran great for me for 6000+ miles, including many trips 3+ hours from home and two track days. I went back to carbs because of how simple they were though. I was always nervous about breaking down, so I went back to OE parts for peace of mind. Great system once you get it set up.

My only input for track use: get the pump mounted fore/aft instead of side to side. At really high lean angles, a pump mounted sideways will have problems with the intake being mounted lower than the output. I ran into that on fast, long, left-hand sweepers with lots of lean angle. Mounting the pump fore/aft will remove that possibility.
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Old August 13th, 2015, 09:04 PM   #1698
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Okay, considering the Ecotron kit. I'm getting a lot of mixed signals from the tech threads, so...

...the Ecotron website has a link to 2012 posts (on this thread, amusingly) about how nifty the kit is and how much everybody likes it. They also make a huge deal about how the Gen. 2 parts are a huge upgrade. From the age of the link I suspect the Gen. 2 "upgrade" isn't a whole lot more recent than that.

So here's the point: would people generally recommend it, based on reliability and ease of use? Or is this one of those novelty mods that turns out to be more trouble than it's worth? I really like my '12, but I miss the smoothness of FI. However, I don't want to spend a week installing a lemon.

Thoughts?
Consider a 300. This kit has its ups and downs. I've been back and forth on buying it, but after following this thread for years, it just doesn't seem like its ready for prime time. More of a tuner, racer, drag type of item than a street item. If you're locked to the 250, consider the 250 or 300 FI setup on your 250. For $700, you could be better off. Some have done that switch with what seems like a better track record than this. Unless you're extremely well versed with this type of stuff...
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Old August 14th, 2015, 12:30 AM   #1699
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Consider a 300. This kit has its ups and downs. I've been back and forth on buying it, but after following this thread for years, it just doesn't seem like its ready for prime time. More of a tuner, racer, drag type of item than a street item. If you're locked to the 250, consider the 250 or 300 FI setup on your 250. For $700, you could be better off. Some have done that switch with what seems like a better track record than this. Unless you're extremely well versed with this type of stuff...
...which I have to admit I'm not, at least with FI and the Kawi. But if I go injected, I'm doing it myself, out of principle. I think my bike mechanic is kinda annoyed with that, but eh... Only once has he had to fix something I screwed up. And I want to figure out which way to go before I go and spend money on rebuilding and rejetting the carbs.

There's a 250 FI conversion kit other than this one? Every link I've found leads back to the Ecotron.
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Old August 14th, 2015, 08:38 AM   #1700
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There is no "kit". You basically buy and piece the parts together from an overseas 250. In EU they are FI.
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Old August 14th, 2015, 09:07 AM   #1701
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There is no "kit". You basically buy and piece the parts together from an overseas 250. In EU they are FI.
You can get the Kawasaki oem fuel rail with the kit.
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Old August 14th, 2015, 10:39 AM   #1702
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There is no "kit". You basically buy and piece the parts together from an overseas 250. In EU they are FI.
Ugh. I figured that was the case, but hoped...

...Crap.

There's a dude on this forum who did it with a 300 FI system. I guess I can hit him up.
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Old August 15th, 2015, 10:26 AM   #1703
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Ugh. I figured that was the case, but hoped...

...Crap.

There's a dude on this forum who did it with a 300 FI system. I guess I can hit him up.
Correct. There is no clear cut 'buy this' link and everything shows up. Nor are there any perfect set of instructions. Sorry if that was misleading, not my intention. There are some on here who have done both the 250 FI from overseas, and the 300 FI from here in US, to a 08-12 250 with success. If it were me, I would lean towards the 300 FI due to parts availability being local. From the little reading I've done, its essentially the same as 250 FI kit. Running through this thread has re-ignited my interest in the 250/300 FI....I'll do some research and send you something. Stay on me, a million things going right now...
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Old August 15th, 2015, 02:53 PM   #1704
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Ugh. I figured that was the case, but hoped...

...Crap.

There's a dude on this forum who did it with a 300 FI system. I guess I can hit him up.
don't know if you mean me by any chance (probably you have EMSRacer07 in mind, who has successfully transplanted a whole 300 engine on a pregen)
but I can tell you what you need to get it done...

If you go for the 250's 28mm TBs (including TPS and injectors) you will also need:
1)a fuel pump (either external or some modding necessary to fit a stock one in your tank)
2) a EU-version ecu and harness (any year will do but best are '08-'09)
3) some sensors (such as Intake Air Temp sensor Intake Pressure Sensor, Speed sensor etc) some times put along with harness if asked from certain sellers...

For some more significant performance improvement I would strongly suggest the 300's 32mm TBs (also including their TPS and injectors which are different from 250's not only in fuel delivery capacity* but also in size) along with either the 300's stock fuel pump or an aftermarket one, preferably a good and tested wallbro
For the ecu I would suggest the 250's again because of the higher rev limiter (250-500rpm more compared to 300's) and probably lower cost, the harness and sensors as mentioned above BUT ALSO
1) The head boots (different than 250's both in size and chamfering degree)
2) The air hornets, for the same reason as the head boots... I guess it is easy to figure why since the 32mm TBs are quite larger in outside diameter on both sides compared to the 250's

* 300's injectors provide less cc of fuel/min because the 300's fuel pump is that of a big bike as preesure and supply figures indicate while 250's injectors are larger -stock part of previous gen ZX-6- but the 250's fuel pump is...well let's just say...inadequate for other applications... so it would be best to couple 250 parts together or 300 parts on the fuel delivery lineup and not mix them up...
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Old August 21st, 2015, 04:11 AM   #1705
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1) Can anyone tell me if learning mode modifies your base table and saves it or if it has it's own table of changes that it applies to your base table?

The way I understand it, after initial install with a base map that gives stable running, you run in eco mode for a week with O2 sensors fitted and it learns and modifies the base map for best 14.7 AFR. You can then fetch from ECU and save that modified cal file in case you want to go back to it later.
You can then run in rich mode which adds an enriching factor to your (now modified) base map.

Some bikes/riders like/need to run a bit rich and eco mode will always try and learn it's way back to 14.7 so you have to run in rich mode or unplug your sensors to overcome that.
That's the way I see it but I may well be wrong, can anyone confirm this?

2) can the system learn with only one O2 sensor? would using 2 sensors not need 2 tables (one per sensor/cylinder)?
As an EFI virgin I'm trying to get my head round this ecu. It's a great way to learn about this EFI stuff. :-)

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Old August 21st, 2015, 10:06 AM   #1706
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1) Can anyone tell me if learning mode modifies your base table and saves it or if it has it's own table of changes that it applies to your base table?

The way I understand it, after initial install with a base map that gives stable running, you run in eco mode for a week with O2 sensors fitted and it learns and modifies the base map for best 14.7 AFR. You can then fetch from ECU and save that modified cal file in case you want to go back to it later.
You can then run in rich mode which adds an enriching factor to your (now modified) base map.

Some bikes/riders like/need to run a bit rich and eco mode will always try and learn it's way back to 14.7 so you have to run in rich mode or unplug your sensors to overcome that.
That's the way I see it but I may well be wrong, can anyone confirm this?

2) can the system learn with only one O2 sensor? would using 2 sensors not need 2 tables (one per sensor/cylinder)?
As an EFI virgin I'm trying to get my head round this ecu. It's a great way to learn about this EFI stuff. :-)
I am sorry Bob, but what are you referring to ? this thread is about installing throttle bodies with injectors on american version carbed 250s...

If your question is about programming some piggyback device (PC V, Bazaaz etc) try creating a new post providing as many details as possible concerning your bike, its upgrades -if any- and the system you are using, so that members with relevant experience get a chance to help you out...
If you are referring to the ecotrons kit programming, I do not have experience with it and probably that is why I am cofused about your question...
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Old August 21st, 2015, 11:42 AM   #1707
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If you are referring to the ecotrons kit programming, I do not have experience with it and probably that is why I am cofused about your question...
Thanks for the reply micoulisnanja.
Yes, I'm refering to ecotrons kit programming.
I'm using an Ecotrons ninja 250 kit in my trike project and hoping to learn something about EFI along the way.
As the guys on here have a lot of experiance with the kit, I thought it was a good place to ask my question.
If it's not apropriate here, please accept my apologies.
I'd gladly start a thread about my project but it probably doesn't belong on a Ninjette forum.
It's pretty bizarre so probably doesn't belong anywhere.
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Old August 21st, 2015, 12:48 PM   #1708
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Originally Posted by bigbadbob View Post
Thanks for the reply micoulisnanja.
Yes, I'm refering to ecotrons kit programming.
I'm using an Ecotrons ninja 250 kit in my trike project and hoping to learn something about EFI along the way.
As the guys on here have a lot of experiance with the kit, I thought it was a good place to ask my question.
If it's not apropriate here, please accept my apologies.
I'd gladly start a thread about my project but it probably doesn't belong on a Ninjette forum.
It's pretty bizarre so probably doesn't belong anywhere.
If it has a ninja engine .please please start a thread.
Pictures diagrams on napkins what ever you have . We want to see it.
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Old August 21st, 2015, 01:01 PM   #1709
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not a ninja engine, not even a parallel twin. and yes... the kit works with it.
There's a bit about it here-
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1130889891
Don't want to drag this thread off topic tho.

( I hope Matt doesn't have kittens when he see's what i've done. you can see why I wouldn't expect him to support me)
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Old August 21st, 2015, 01:23 PM   #1710
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Sorry still a very cool project. And it would be fine in the off topic section.
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Old August 21st, 2015, 01:29 PM   #1711
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Cool beans RacerX.
I'll mosey on over there and put up a bit about it.
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Old August 21st, 2015, 04:07 PM   #1712
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgk View Post
does the log show it cutting off at the switch point between the hot and cold maps?
I'm having a hell of a time figuring that out. I think I may see that it recorded a map error of some kind, but could be wrong. Can anyone help interpret whether it's cutting off between the hot and cold maps from this log file? This is part of what I sent to ecotrons last time, but Matt didn't say anything about the map sensor.
Attached Files
File Type: csv recorddata-4-26-2015-11-25-27 AM-100ms.csv (310.9 KB, 7 views)
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Old August 22nd, 2015, 05:02 AM   #1713
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbadbob View Post
not a ninja engine, not even a parallel twin. and yes... the kit works with it.
There's a bit about it here-
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1130889891
Don't want to drag this thread off topic tho.

( I hope Matt doesn't have kittens when he see's what i've done. you can see why I wouldn't expect him to support me)
well, now I'm interested too !! a huge modded trike !!
that's the kind of stuff I love !
So sorry I can't help you with programming it...
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Old August 22nd, 2015, 07:30 AM   #1714
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Looks like a MAP sensor error to me Jack.
Map sensor signal looks really screwy until near the end, I see where it's cutting out but the MAP signal looks ok then apart from it recording a MAP error during crank??
I'm not sure what you mean by hot and cold maps but the warmup factor is still ramping down throughout the graph and hasn't reached 0 before the end so it's still in the warmup fuel phase.
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Old October 24th, 2016, 01:23 PM   #1715
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Hey everyone! I hope you're all doing well. I'm back at trying to get this bike running again and have forgotten all of this stuff. The bike currently doesn't start (is completely EFI related), and I would love some direction on where to begin. I have a feeling that it needs to be completely reflashed with some kinds of base mapping? The current owner of the bike has sold off the aftermarket exhaust, but is still using the K&N pod filter. Please help me get it running!
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Old October 25th, 2016, 01:09 AM   #1716
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My own personal experience with Ecotrons, a GPz250 kit on a Yamaha twin, is that if you have any sort of odd thing happen then first up reflash, then reload the last known good setup. Even if you compare what might be in the ECU itself with a saved of copy of the same configuration and find no difference I have found that a reflash corrects something. Difficulty starting was one issue that was instantly corrected with a reflash and reload. Even between dyno runs. Sometimes I would make a change and it would go off and have a problem and not start. Reverting to the configuration prior to the change it still would not start. Reflash more often than not fixed the problem.
I had an ECU from the batch with the problem where a wire, or wires, on the connector was a bit long and was intermittently touching the case of the ECU. I suspected this was causing issues but even after trimming all the wires down and insulating the case for good measure I still had the problem. I found this problem before Ecotrons admitted the problem and got round it by electrically isolating the ECU from the chassis.
A good indicator that the ECU is having a problem is that the TPS gauge will not budge off 0% until the throttle is open anywhere from 10-50%.
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Old October 25th, 2016, 08:31 AM   #1717
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedpro View Post
My own personal experience with Ecotrons, a GPz250 kit on a Yamaha twin, is that if you have any sort of odd thing happen then first up reflash, then reload the last known good setup. Even if you compare what might be in the ECU itself with a saved of copy of the same configuration and find no difference I have found that a reflash corrects something. Difficulty starting was one issue that was instantly corrected with a reflash and reload. Even between dyno runs. Sometimes I would make a change and it would go off and have a problem and not start. Reverting to the configuration prior to the change it still would not start. Reflash more often than not fixed the problem.
I had an ECU from the batch with the problem where a wire, or wires, on the connector was a bit long and was intermittently touching the case of the ECU. I suspected this was causing issues but even after trimming all the wires down and insulating the case for good measure I still had the problem. I found this problem before Ecotrons admitted the problem and got round it by electrically isolating the ECU from the chassis.
A good indicator that the ECU is having a problem is that the TPS gauge will not budge off 0% until the throttle is open anywhere from 10-50%.
That's all great, but I'll need to be walked through all that. Since I sold the Ninja 250 about 2+ years ago, I have forgot how to do all that. I have no files, but I do still have the laptop I used to set it up for the first time.
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Old December 7th, 2019, 06:32 PM   #1718
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I found this system on their site, but can't get any info on how to order, or if it's even still available.

Are they still making this EFI kit?
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Old December 7th, 2019, 07:06 PM   #1719
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I'm not sure. Seems most new bikes come with EFI now. Might want to contact ecotrons directly.
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Old December 7th, 2019, 07:24 PM   #1720
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I suggest looking into more robust EFI system such as Microsquirt. Much larger user and support base. Search for Greg737's install on his Ninja 250 and Bandit 400
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