First Farkles

[MAZ 80]

[adouglas]

Purty. Where'd you get it?

[choneofakind]

More important, why are your first farkles going onto a bare bike? Care to share more of your project?

[Ghostt]

[cbinker]

[MAZ 80]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Purty. Where'd you get it?

Common on eBay. Lots of different colors.

[cbinker]

did it come with the clear hose?

[MAZ 80]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

More important, why are your first farkles going onto a bare bike? Care to share more of your project?

I think you answered your own question. It's going on a bare bike because it's the first thing done.

I have a couple of other bits that are getting close but mostly I've just been cleaning and fixing. Everything was filthy but is cleaning up nicely.

The carbs had never been touched. I put a 110 main and .040 under the needle. Should be a good enough starting point.

The intake valves were set good but all four of the exhaust were tight. Go figure. I'm waiting on an o-ring so I can button that up.

[MAZ 80]

Originally Posted by cbinker

did it come with the clear hose?

McMaster Carr, http://www.mcmaster.com/#5103k45/=y5n004

It's one of the reasons I wanted to get that done early. Just to make sure it's really going to hold up. If it fails, I'll let you know.

[choneofakind]

0.040, so about 2 washers?

What intake setup are you going with where you're choosing that as your first take on jetting?

[MAZ 80]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

0.040, so about 2 washers?

What intake setup are you going with where you're choosing that as your first take on jetting?

Just the stock setup at first.

[cbinker]

i found you the front reservoir and master cylinder combo.

at amazon:

[MAZ 80]

That's actually what I bought. I just modified it for the back and tossed the rest.

[cbinker]

you tossed the levers?

[MAZ 80]

No, sorry, I didn't realize they were part of the package. Mine was just the reservoir, bracket and several hose barbs, non of which fit.

[choneofakind]

Why did you switch to 110 mains with the stock setup? The stock 105 is already a little rich. The mid range will love you for those 2 washers, but the top end will be soggy.

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Why did you switch to 110 mains with the stock setup? The stock 105 is already a little rich. The mid range will love you for those 2 washers, but the top end will be soggy.

Agreed

Stock size jets, with the 2 washers should be more than enough, unless you have access to an exhaust gas analyzer.

Just dial in the idle mixture screws, and your set.

Your initial setting should be 3 full turns out from the bottom, remember just slightly tighten them, don't go all Conan on them.



Then warm it up, slowly turn 1 side pilot screw in until the rpms drop, then back out till RPM's peak (and no further)* Twist throttle...see how it reacts...tweak to taste.
Repeat on other side... test ride. You're looking for best throttle response and transition from just cracked to 1/4 throttle opening or so.*

Thats a quickie, 10 cent tutorial on setting pilot screws.**

[csmith12]

Cool!

[MAZ 80]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Why did you switch to 110 mains with the stock setup? The stock 105 is already a little rich. The mid range will love you for those 2 washers, but the top end will be soggy.

I read it somewhere as a good starting point.

To tell the truth, I was a bit puzzled by it as well. My experience with this type carb has been they tend to have trouble at the other end. That is with the slow jet in order to help out the transition off idle. Shimming the needle helps it get on the needle quicker and keeps it richer throughout the midrange. I suspect .040 is a bit much but I'd rather start rich and work my way down then start lean.

I didn't really ride it much before taking it apart so I'm not really sure how it's running. I managed to get a lot of pinging at the low end but I think that was just me not being used to having to stir the shifter that much.

[choneofakind]

I think you need to do less reading and more experimenting to see for yourself how each change affects things. Because I really think that main jet is not a good starting point for a sock intake. The best starting point for a stock intake is the stock 105...

[MAZ 80]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

I think you need to do less reading

Perhaps I should start with your posts.

[MAZ 80]

I've had brake fluid in the reservoir for 10 days now and the plastic window has turned milky and has developed a couple of cracks.

In general, it is very well made. The CNC work is good, the anodizing is nice and even, the diaphragm in the lid is excellent and even the mold for the plastic window was good.

To shoot the wrong plastic into that mold was quite an oversight.

[MAZ 80]

I complained to the seller. I felt the inability of the brake reservoir to hold brake fluid was a major shortcoming. He sent me a new plastic cup and assured me it was a different polymer and should hold up. I soaked it in brake fluid for a couple of weeks and though it didn't turn cloudy, it did develop a couple of small cracks. Nothing major but I just didn't trust it. Nothing can ruin your day faster than seeing brake fluid spilled all over your new paint.

So, I did what I should have done in the fist place. I flushed out the system and filled it with purple stuff (dot 5). All is well, it looks great.

[MrAtom]

What part of norcal are you in? I'd love to finally meet another ninjetter from the site.

[choneofakind]

Uhhh... our manual says not to use DOT 5...

[Ghostt]

You can convert to DOT 5, which is silicone based, but you MUST flush the system, tons of how-to's out there, I went with DOT 5.1 which is synthetic based, and 100% compatible with DOT 3&4 systems, without all the fuss, but a better fluid.
I tried the Motul in SERENITY when I got her and rebuilt everything, so far so good. I don't know if I really needed it, but it nice to have it, just in case.

https://m.motul.com/ca/en-us/product...-1-brake-fluid

We retain the right to modify the general characteristics of our products in order to offer to our customers the latest technical development.
Product specifications are not definitive from the order which is subject to our general conditions of sale and warranty. – Made in France
MOTUL . 119 Bd Félix Faure - 93303 AUBERVILLIERS CEDEX - BP 94 - Tel 33 1 48 11 70 00 - FAX 33 1 48 33 28 79 . Web Site: www.motul.fr 12/08
DOT 5.1 Brake Fluid
Long life 100% Synthetic Fluid
For hydraulic actuated brake and clutch systems
DOT 5.1 NON SILICONE BASE
TYPE OF USE
All types of hydraulic actuated brake and clutch systems in accordance with DOT 5.1, DOT 4
and DOT 3 manufacturers’ recommendations.
Fluidity specially designed for anti-locking brake systems (ABS).
PERFORMANCE
STANDARDS : FMVSS 116 DOT 5.1 NON SILICONE BASE, DOT 4 and DOT 3
SAE J 1703
ISO 4925 (5.1, 4 & 3)
Long life fluid:
The high wet boiling point (185°C / 365°F), superior to DOT 4 (155°C / 311°F mini) and DOT 3 (140°C /
284°F mini) conventional fluids enables to use this product longer. Indeed, DOT 3 / DOT 4 and DOT 5.1
brake fluids have the property to absorb humidity contained in the air, which reduces their boiling points
and consequently security.
The wet boiling point is representative of the fluid after one year of use.
Specially designed for anti-locking brake systems (ABS):
The viscosity (820 centipoises at -40°C / -40°F) lower than DOT 4 (up to 1800 cp) and DOT 3 (up to
1500 cp) brake fluids allows an easier fluid circulation in micro-valves of anti-locking systems.
Perfectly neutral with seals used in braking systems. Anti-corrosion.
RECOMMENDATIONS
Mixable with DOT 3, DOT 4 and DOT 5.1 NON SILICONE BASE products.
Do not mix with silicone (DOT 5 silicone base) or mineral base fluids (LHM).
Store brake fluid in its original container, tightly closed to avoid absorption of moisture.
Aggressive chemical product if contact with hands, paint or varnish.
If skin contact, rinse thoroughly with water.
Drain Interval: 12 to 24 month as per manufacturers’ recommendations.
PROPERTIES
100% synthetic fluid, polyglycol bases.
Color Yellow
Dry boiling point 272 °C / 522 °F
Wet boiling point 185 °C / 365 °F
Viscosity at -40°C (-40°F) 820 mm²/s
Viscosity at 100°C (212°F) 2.1 mm²/s

Found this http://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/brakefluids.html

BRAKE FLUIDS
by Lorne Goldman
Automotive braking is the an important factor in performance car building. A wise man once told me that your life depends on good tyres and good brakes. Thinkers pay an equal amount of attention to stopping as they do to making their vehicles go fast, becau without the former, the latter is cannot be effectively enjoyed. Here's a fact that not too many realize: when you step on the brakes, you command a stopping force that's 10 times as powerful as the force that puts the car in motion. Hard to believe isn't it? No wonder the performance brake market has been vying for and finally receiving our attention. But now that they've educated us in the importance of quality components, it's now time to pay attention to the fluid that activates and allows these components to work.

It only makes sense that after you've spent big bucks and a lot of time upgrading your vehicle, the completion of your job must go beyond adding just any old fluid into the system. It's extremely important to always use a high quality fluid. Let's face it, that quart of Elmo's Wonder Brake Fluid & Windshield Washer Solvent combo you picked up at the swap meet may end up as the only thing between the ball of your foot and a brick wall. So, let's at least pay a fraction of the attention spent on choosing components on choosing brake fluid. The following information should help you better understand the differences between various types of fluids.

FLUID REQUIREMENTS

Brake fluid must function through heat, cold, and all the variations of temperatures affecting all brake systems. In other words, brake fluid must be and must remain viscous (fluid) and resistant to severe conditions. It must also absorb water without having an affinity for doing so. Brake fluid must be pure and contain no contaminants, which will have a harmful effect on rubber components. It also should serve as a lubricant for the moving parts in a brake system and be able to withstand time and service--in other words, its boiling point and chemical properties must remain stable. One more important factor is that brake fluid should not cause an electrolytic action that will decompose or degrade metal brake parts.

FLUID CLASSIFICATIONS

These factors are taken into consideration by the Department of Transportation, National Highway Safety Administration in Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 116. FMVSS116-classified fluids fall into four categories: DOT 3, DOT 4, and DOT 5 and now DOT 5.1. DOT 3 meets their minimum specifications and was used in 90% of US made vehicles in 2007. DOT 4, 5 and DOT 5.1 meet more stringent requirements. The purpose of these requirements is "to reduce failures in the hydraulic brake systems of motor vehicles which may occur because of the manufacture or use of improper or contaminated brake fluid." In addition to setting the minimum wet and dry boiling points for all brake fluids, Federal Standard 116 deals with fluid viscosity, temperature and chemical stability, corrosiveness, water tolerance, compatibility (between formulations), and effects on brake system components.

WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE?

It seems logical that if DOT 3 is good enough then DOT 4 must be better. And, if DOT 4 is better, then DOT 5 and DOT 5.1 must be better still. OK then, is that so? It all boils (pun!) down to boiling point. When brake fluid begins to boil (from the heat that's generated in the system during braking) it forms gas bubbles. As these bubbles collect and grow, they form pockets of gas in the system. And since gas is much easier to compress than fluid, these pockets cause the pedal to easily compress or go soft. This is what as known as a spongy pedal--a condition that causes the heart to race.

WATCHPOINT: How can you tell whether you have Silicone brake fluid and normal brake fluids in your system? Many will tell you that Silicone has a blue or purple tinge. But this is only true before it has been used. Once exposed, it will turn clear or yellowish and can eaily be mistaken for normal fluid. One can attempt to distinguish its properties by seeing if it will blend with water (shake the two together in a bottle) or with oil. If it cannot blend with water it is silicone. If it can blend with oil, it is silicone. I prefer the paint test method.. Place a bit of the unknown brake fluid on a painted sample. If the paint is undamaged the next day, the fluid is silicone based. If it is wrinkled and peeling, it is a normal non-silicone fluid.
BOILING POINTS

The following chart shows the aforementioned FMVSS116 minimum boiling points. These boiling points are the biggest difference in the fluid classifications. You'll notice there are two points for each classification of fluid. The dry boiling point is for fresh fluid that has not yet absorbed moisture. The wet boiling point is for fluid that has been in use (or in an opened container) long enough for it to absorb moisture from the atmosphere.

The different DOT spec fluids have chemical or formulation differences, as well as boiling point differences. There are (at this point) four commercial formulations for brake fluids; three are glycol-based and the third is silicone-based. DOT 3 brake fluids are a mixture of polyalkylene glycol ether and other glycols (all start life as ethylene glycol--antifreeze); DOT 4 and DOT 5.1 fluids add borate esters to raise the boiling point. DOT 5 is silicone oil based with additives.

DOT 5 SILICONE BASED BRAKE FLUID (SBBF)

The U.S. DOT defines silicone brake fluid as that which consists of no less than 70 percent of adiorgano polysiloxane by weight. Silicone-based fluids are regarded as DOT 5 fluids. They are highly compressible and can give the driver the feeling of a spongy pedal. The higher the brake system temperature, the more the compressibility of the fluid--increasing the feeling of a spongy pedal. Silicone-based fluids are non-hydroscopic, meaning that they will not absorb or mix with water. When water is present in the brake system, it will create a water/fluid/water/fluid situation. Because water boils at approximately 212 degrees F, the ability of the brake system to operate correctly decreases, and the steam created from boiling water adds air to the system. It is important to remember that water may be present in any brake system. Therefore, silicone brake fluid lacks the ability to deal with moisture and will dramatically decrease a brake systems performance. Silicone brake fluid has a number of strengths and drawbacks.

DOT 5 Strengths:

1) It has a high boiling point since it does not absorb water. Therefore, there's no so-called wet boiling point.

2) Doesn't absorb moisture.

3) Doesn't remove paint.

4) The viscosity is more stable over the extremes of temperature.

5) With the exception of some formulations used in external boots, silicone brake fluid is compatible with all standard brake components.

DOT 5 Drawbacks:

1) It's hard to pour without entraining air bubbles--hence an application will generally have a softer, spongier pedal feel.

2) It doesn't absorb water, so any water already in the system accumulates in the lowest point of the system and stays there, causing rust.

3) Glycol fluids begin to compress near their boiling points, whereas silicone fluids begin to compress at around 300-350 degrees Fahrenheit.

4) Additives in the fluid can vaporize at comparatively moderate temperature, increasing the spongy feel.

5) Silicone fluids expand significantly when hot.

6) Silicone fluid is functionally incompatible with systems that have held glycol-based fluids for any length of time, requiring flushing and seal replacement (there are counter opinions on this, which state that the modern silicone formulations are in fact compatible with only a flushing, rather than a complete reseal). The actual DOT specification requires chemical compatibility, so as far as that goes, the two fluids won't cause reactions if used in the same system, but they certainly won't mix, either.

7) It's pretty much incompatible with anti-lock brakes because the silicone fluids tend to be more viscous, which can cause problems with the timing of the pulses that are intended to work with the thinner glycol-base fluid. This sometimes leads to damage of the ABS valving. The rapid pulsing necessary to anti-lock functions tend to cavitate the fluid, as the tiny bubbles collapse and coalesce into larger ones, and then collapse and reform into smaller ones. This tends to counteract the ABS effect and can diminish the actual effective braking. This condition also heats the fluid and can lead to even more sponginess and possible damage to the ABS controller. Thirdly, silicone brake fluid tends to foam when expressed from a small orifice under pressure, reducing its hydraulic effectiveness greatly.

Castrol GT LMA

This is one of the LMA brake fluids. LMA stands for "low moisture activity" and it fulfills this feature well. It has the same boiling points as DOT 4. It is DOT 3 and DOT 4 compatible.

DOT 5.1 (not to be confused with DOT 5!)

DOT 5.1 is another polyalkylene glycol ether and borate ester combination. However, in this case, the mixture can sustain even higher heats than DOT 5 without a mushy feeling. It is also compatible with DOT 3 and DOT 4 brake fluids. It can be bought at NAPA under Part #51032 for 32ozs and Part #51012 for 12ozs.


FLUID TYPE DRY BOILING POINT WET BOILING POINT
DOT 3 205°C (401°F) 140°C (284°F)
DOT 4 230°C (446°F) 155°C (311°F)
Castrol GT LMA 230°C (446°F) 155°C (311°F)
DOT 5 (silicone) 260°C (500°F) 180°C (356°F)
DOT 5.1 270°C (518°F) 191°C (375°F)
There are other more effective fluids, Ford Heavy Duty DOT 3, ATE Super Blue Racing, ATE TYP 200, Motul Racing 600, Castrol SRF, Performance Friction, etc but the price is not justified for a road car.

Brake Fluid Primer

DOT 3

DOT 4

DOT 5

DOT 5.1

N.B. There are many racing fluids available..bringing the price and the quality of DOT 3 and DOT 4 far beyond the standard fluids.

DOT 3
DOT 3 brake fluid is the "conventional" brake fluid used in most vehicles.

Advantages:

It is inexpensive, and available at most gas stations, department stores, and any auto parts store.

It is completely compatible with DOT 3 and DOT 5.1.

Disadvantages:



It eats paint.

It absorbs water very readily. Accordingly, once a container of DOT 3 has been opened, it should not be stored for periods much longer than a week before use.

It is NOT compatible with Dot 5 whatsoever and should never be mixed. A safe switch from DOT 3/DOT 4/DOT 5.1 to DOT 5 requires a complete flush of the braking system and a change of all seals in the hydraulic system.

Maintenance

Flush every 2 years.



DOT 4
Advantages:

It is available at most auto parts stores, and gas stations and department stores.

It does not absorb water as readily as DOT 3 fluid.

It has a higher boiling point than DOT 3 fluid, making it more suitable for high performance applications where the brake systems are expected to get hot.

It is completely compatible with DOT 3 and DOT 5.1.

Disadvantages:

It eats paint.

It is about 50% more expensive than DOT 3 fluid. (One brand is the easily found Castrol LMA)

It is NOT compatible with Dot 5 whatsoever and should never be mixed. A safe switch from DOT 3/DOT 4/DOT 5.1 to DOT 5 requires a complete flush of the braking system and a change of all seals in the hydraulic system.

Maintenance

Flush every 2 years.



DOT 5
DOT 5 brake fluid is also known as "silicone" brake fluid. It was designed for the US Army, who has requested permission to stop using it.

Advantages:

It does not eat paint or skin.

It does not absorb water (BUT!!! See more on this under disadvantages, below.)

It has a higher boiling point than DOT 3 and DOT 4.

It is compatible with all rubber formulations.

It is a good choice for Concours cars which are rarely driven and/or never driven hard.

Disadvantages:

It does NOT mix with DOT3 or DOT 4 or DOT 5.1. Most reported problems with DOT 5 are probably due to some degree of mixing with other fluid types. A residue of the former non-compatible fluid is sufficient to cause serious issues. The best way to convert to DOT 5 is to totally rebuild the hydraulic system. Additionally, the same advice applies if switching from Dot 5 to any of the other fluids.

Since DOT 5 does not absorb water, any moisture in the hydraulic system will "puddle" in one place. This can cause localized corrosion in the hydraulics.

Careful bleeding is required to get all of the air out of the system. It is hard to you without introducing bubbles and thus results in soft pedal feel. These small bubbles will form large bubbles over time. It may be necessary to do a series of bleeds.

DOT 5 is less compressible (often creating a slightly softer pedal). It is not recommended for racing application.
It is hard to pour without introducing bubbles and thus results in soft pedal feel,

It is not recommended by the brake manufacturer, especially for ABS brakes.

It is about twice as expensive as DOT 4 fluid.

So silicone fluid aerates easily. Harley-Davison, one of the sole current OEM users of silicone fluid, warns buyers to let the fluid sit at least an hour before using it. If shaken on the way home, it will aerate enough to look like a freshly poured soft drink. Silicone fluid is also slightly more compressible than glycol fluid, does not change color to tip the user to its moisture content, and worst of all, neither accepts or disperses moisture, making systems using it more corrosion prone, and requiring much more frequent fluid changes. Silicone brake fluid also lacks glycol fluid's naturally occurring lubricity, making it incompatible with the mechanical valving in some anti-lock braking systems.




Dot 5.1
DOT5.1 is a relatively new brake fluid that is causing no end of confusion amongst mechanics. The DOT could avoided a lot of confusion by giving this new fluid a different designation. The 5.1 designation could lead one to believe that it's a modification of silicone-based DOT 5 brake fluid. Calling it 4.1 or 6 might have been more appropriate since it's a glycol-based fluid like the DOT 3 and 4 types, not silicone-based like DOT 5 fluid.

As far as the basic behavior of 5.1 fluids, they are much like "high performance" DOT 4 fluids.

Advantages:

It provides superior performance over all the other brake fluids discussed here. It has a higher boiling point, either dry or wet, than DOT 3 or 4 or even DOT 5. In fact, its dry boiling point (about 275 degrees C) is almost as high as racing fluid (about 300 degrees C) and 5.1's wet boiling point (about 175 to 200 degrees C) is naturally much higher than racing's (about 145 C).

It is compatible with all rubber formulations.

It is completely compatible with DOT 3 and DOT 4 making an upgrade from either easy..

Disadvantages:

It will absorb water.
It will eat paint.
It is more difficult to find for sale, typically at very few auto parts stores. Try NAPA #NBF51012
It is mildly more expensive than DOT3 or DOT4.

It is NOT compatible with Dot 5 whatsoever and should NEVER be mixed. A safe switch from DOT 3/DOT 4/DOT 5.1 to DOT 5 requires a complete flush of the braking system and a change of all seals in the hydraulic system.

Also......

WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DOT 5 AND DOT 5.1 BRAKE FLUID?
DOT 5 is a silicone based synthetic fluid originally designed for use in military and government vehicles where regular maintenance could be problematic. Although not hygroscopic in the traditional sense, water molecules will still find their way into your hydraulics creating globules rather than being suspended as with traditional DOT 3/4 & 5.1 fluids…the end result is the same: contamination. DOT 5 Silicone was never intended for serious high performance application. Harley Davidson uses it I suspect because it won't ruin your paint if you're all thumbs and miss the toilet a lot. Interesting aside; HD's sporting wing; Buell, has switched to a higher performance DOT 4 in all their 2000 models. DOT 5.1, albeit confusing in designation (thank the D.O.T. for that), is effectively a lighter viscosity synthetic poly glycol fluid with DOT 4 performance parameters. It was developed for use in mechanical ABS systems that require a higher cyclic rate capability.

[choneofakind]

^^ Interesting. I never knew you could switch between the two.

Personally, I used to use DOT 5.1 but when I swapped out my MC and serviced the calipers, I had trouble finding it locally and didn't want to wait for shipping so I went with normal DOT 4 I found in the store. Works fine. I can tell it gets spongey faster than the 5.1, but I'm not at the track this season so it doesn't really matter.

[MAZ 80]

Dot 5 is ALL about not attacking stuff and long term stability. No need for special rubber, hoses, plastic reservoirs or paint. No need to change it every couple of years. It won't eat your skin.

It is NOT to be used in high performance applications. It can't take the heat.

It is totally incompatible with other brake fluid. If you're going to convert to it, it's best to at least disassemble the major components to flush them. I flush first with water, then alcohol, then blow air thru it and finally let dry for a couple of days just to be sure.

Having said that, a lot of people have successfully just ran dot 5 thru the system for at least two flushes. Classic car owners are switching to it a lot.

Anything that sits for a long period of time is a good candidate.

[spooph]

Originally Posted by MAZ 80

Dot 5 is ALL about not attacking stuff and long term stability. No need for special rubber, hoses, plastic reservoirs or paint. No need to change it every couple of years. It won't eat your skin.

It is NOT to be used in high performance applications. It can't take the heat.

It is totally incompatible with other brake fluid. If you're going to convert to it, it's best to at least disassemble the major components to flush them. I flush first with water, then alcohol, then blow air thru it and finally let dry for a couple of days just to be sure.

Having said that, a lot of people have successfully just ran dot 5 thru the system for at least two flushes. Classic car owners are switching to it a lot.

Anything that sits for a long period of time is a good candidate.

I heard DOT 5 came about because Harley needed it. It would then make sense that classic car owners would be using it...

This isn't meant as a slam against Harley, simply identifying the fact that their technology is circa 1970...

[MAZ 80]

Originally Posted by spooph

This isn't meant as a slam against Harley, simply identifying the fact that their technology is circa 1970...

A common mis-conception. Harley's manufacturing facilities are world class. The fit and finish on the Sportster is equal to or better than the Ninja in every respect. The design of Harley goes back to the 70's. It goes back to 1903. That's a good part of the appeal and something of a corner that they have painted themselves into. They would love to come up with something that appeals to another demographic and still can be called Harley.

As it came from the dealer the Sportster actually handled better than the Ninja. Of course this is just comparing bad to abysmal. I expect the Ninja to handle better once I've done everything to it than I did to the Sportster but it's half the size.

Kawasaki has their own design throwbacks. The controls on the Ninja are straight out of the 70's. The turn signals are still a PIA and don't self cancel. Mine even has a mechanical speedometer. Do the new ones? Will they ever come up with a side stand that doesn't fold up if you roll foreword a bit?

I'm not knocking Kawasaki, this is my third one. Just setting the record straight.

[choneofakind]

FWIW, I know some of the guys who worked out the manufacturing for a couple of Harley's blocks and a couple new guys who work with the same company. No slouches there.

I still make fun of Harley's. They don't appreciate my sense of humor. I can't figure out why.

[MAZ 80]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

I still make fun of Harley's. They don't appreciate my sense of humor. I can't figure out why.

You're only allowed to make fun of said (product, group, sex, religion, race, etc.) if you're a member.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by MAZ 80

That's a good part of the appeal and something of a corner that they have painted themselves into. They would love to come up with something that appeals to another demographic and still can be called Harley.

http://big-diesel.blogspot.com/2007/...was-never.html

[MAZ 80]

Thank the deities they never produced that.
I like the Scott Squirrels better.

[spooph]

Originally Posted by MAZ 80

A common mis-conception. Harley's manufacturing facilities are world class. The fit and finish on the Sportster is equal to or better than the Ninja in every respect. The design of Harley goes back to the 70's. It goes back to 1903. That's a good part of the appeal and something of a corner that they have painted themselves into.

This is what I meant. And yes, the 250 has suffered from the same lack of technological update, however, Kawi and the majority of manufacturers are much better than Harley at keeping with the times. You are right, they are a heritage brand, and rightly so. Like I said, not slamming the Harley, simply fishing for confirmation on the reason for DOT 5's creation, and commenting more on the majority of Harley owners than the bike's themselves.

Concerning the Sportster handling better than the ninja, not sure what you mean by this. Sure, the 250 is under sprung, but at least it doesn't come from the factory with posted lean angle numbers, which, might I add, aren't the same for both sides.

Yes, I've ridden a Sportster. Is it a fantastic platform to build a capable bike out of? Absolutely! Would it take more money than a 250? Absolutely!