Braking tip: squeeze, then SQUEEZE

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Since you're about to take the MSF, remember one thing:

That course is designed to teach you lowest-common-denominator techniques that will keep you safe when all your cognitive abilities go out the window. Which they will in an emergency, and far more readily if you're inexperienced. It's only natural. You've already shared your experiences of getting a bit flustered in traffic. Think about what that's doing to your cognition. It'll all pass with more seat time.

That does NOT mean the techniques you learn in the basic course are the only way to do things.

Seconding this. I took the ARC the year after I took the BRC. I think it's great to go back in for a "refresher" with some more advanced techniques, on your own bike that you've been riding for a while.

A lot of the ARC material is "BRC told you that you can never _____. Now that you have the basic skills down pat, you can actually _____ if you're careful." The BRC instills the basic skills that you should just automatically react with, without having to think about it at all. Once the basics are muscle memory and you've got a feel for the subtleties of controlling the bike, you can advance to combining multiple maneuvers and such. A lot of it was stuff that I had picked up on at least a little in two seasons of riding, but it was good to see it explained and ensure I was actually doing the advanced stuff correctly too.

The guy on the CBR600RR lowsided right in front of me on the peanut (it was interesting to actually see a lowside, without having to go through it myself), but I saw some huge cruisers zipping around quite deftly by the end. If it's reasonable for you to take it, I suggest doing so after a season or two of riding.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by ZeroGravity360

100 feet seems like a lot just reading it, but if I seen it in person probably not so much, so idk...

It seems like a lot because your not thinking freeway speeds where you're traveling 100ft every few seconds. Let it come, don't rush it. Just know there is always work to be done.

[dcj13]

70 mph = 102.666 feet per second.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by SLOWn60

.........I do use [the rear brake] to initially load the suspension particularly the front to begin to load the front tire for braking.........

This is a very good technique to learn and practice frequently.
There is no reason not to use the braking capability of the rear brake to initiate transfer of weight onto the front patch.

At that initial point, 50% to 70% (according to load on the bike) of the weight is on the rear patch.
As traction is proportional to the weight on that tire, there is plenty to be used at that initial moment.

The more extreme the following deceleration will be (racing, emergency), the quicker that capability will be reduced: proportionally or quickly reduce pressure on pedal.

The technique is also perfectly usable for smooth reduction of speed like trail and engine braking, on dry or wet pavement.
In those cases, only little weight is released from the rear tire to go on the front one.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by ZeroGravity360

100 feet seems like a lot just reading it, but if I seen it in person probably not so much, so idk...

Please, see how much distance it takes to stop at different speeds, considering reaction time and actual efficient braking:

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=136629

[cadd]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Do you have faith in your ability to shave off 50+mph in 100ft? If not, there is more work to be done.

And... just so you know, we ALL should be continually working on this skill, including myself.

Amen! I try to do a quick stop at least once a week if I find a road that's completely empty with good pavement. I still have plenty to learn, but I feel I am more confident and willing to push (or rather pull the lever) a lot harder since this is the first bike I have ABS on. I was more timid with all my previous bikes with no ABS in fear of locking up the front. Both these stops, I felt the rear "chattering". Part of that is the ABS kicking in. But even here, I am not even close to using the front brake 100% because the front ABS didn't activate.

Question: Front end was vibrating a bit as I was coming to a stop. What am I doing wrong? I'm pretty sure it wasn't the ABS.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Originally Posted by InvisiBill

I took the ARC the year after I took the BRC. I think it's great to go back in for a "refresher" with some more advanced techniques, on your own bike that you've been riding for a while.

A lot of the ARC material is "BRC told you that you can never _____. Now that you have the basic skills down pat, you can actually _____ if you're careful."

Same exact experience as you. I actually took the BRC2 8 years after the BRC. Then the following year (9 years after the BRC), I took the ARC.

The RiderCoach said the same exact thing to us. "Remember all the stuff we told you you can't do in the BRC, well, you can do A, B, C & D here".

This was from my ARC class. It's a decreasing radius turn, swerve and quick stop.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[ZeroGravity360]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Please, see how much distance it takes to stop at different speeds, considering reaction time and actual efficient braking:

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=136629

You know... Lol I guess 100 feet isn't as long as I thought it was...

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by cadd

Question: Front end was vibrating a bit as I was coming to a stop. What am I doing wrong? I'm pretty sure it wasn't the ABS.

So far in my experience, where riders let me know they have concerns of "mild" vibration under hard braking it's almost always caused by an uneven transfer of pad material to rotor. aka... a bad or less than optimal bedding in. The cure is relatively simple, clean everything and inspect the surface of the rotor and pads. Red and green scotch brite pads & brake cleaner normally make cleaning off any light rough patches or glazing pretty easy. Next step would be to rebed the pads.

I have been using EBC HH pads for the past 4yrs. When the pads give me vibration on my r6, that is my clue it's time for a "better than average" cleaning of the brake components. For safety & completeness, don't forget to put that same attention to detail into your caliper pistons and slide pins. One slightly sticky piston/slide pin may cause uneven pressure/chatter/vibration and more of the same uneven transfer of pad material to the rotor. On my r6, when I am in doubt, I just buy new pins. Vesrah pads seems to be better overall, but I am not too picky as long as my brakes work the way they should.

Lastly, at the very edge of front or rear wheel lock up, your gunna feel some vibrations. After all, it's a fairly violent affair going on down there. And if your like me, your senses are on very high alert when you pull the lever that hard. If you can keep the hard brake pressure at the very edge of lock up on purpose, I would say there is nothing wrong. In fact, everything is quite normal, right and doesn't get much better.

Friction is an awesome thing.

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by ZeroGravity360

I got the front breaking down from riding a bicycle. However, it is much different on a motorcycle. You have a much heavier thing under you, and you dont stop as fast. Also, the front brakes are so sensitive sometimes I just try to barly touch them

This is why you need to use you front every time so when are in an emergency situation you do not grab a hand full of front brake before the front has loaded.
Next time you hear or read someone say "I had to lie it down" think they grabbed a hand full of front brake before the the front end got most of the weight and they lost control and went down.

[csmith12]

I can't believe I didn't put this in the first cut of my above post. Your seating position and how "locked on" to the bike the rider is makes an enormous difference in how smooth the bike can feel even under extreme braking. Check out the pics here to see how the bike is reacting to my changes in seating position. I need to update that thread with more pics.

And everyone says "be light on the bars, be light on the bars", but common.... let's be real here. Your gunna have some weight on your arms and hands and that equals "feeling" more of those vibrations. So much so, that I don't use race grips on my bikes. I use these;


I like them because they dull out some of the "unimportant" vibrations you may feel in the bars. Espcially while braking hard.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

How many Ninjette racers lift the rear during a race? I certainly don't with my vintage machine, despite the front disc

I do it every race if the track calls for a hard enough braking zone. It gets sketchy when you trailbrake in and the rear is stepping out because it doesn't have enough weight on it

Originally Posted by csmith12

<--- This guy.... Some members here have witnessed it first hand from behind or watching from the fence.

Can verify, have seen his approach to T1 at Jennings

Originally Posted by NevadaWolf

Found this neat little graphic from Honda Worldwide. The lower half is talking about their Electronically Controlled Combined ABS, but it's the upper half I want to highlight.



Notice how rear brake only is the longest to stop? The majority of your stopping power is up front, use it.

Agreed with the data, not a fan of C-ABS but it certainly illustrates the need for using both brakes in an emergency stop. That said it's not just about using both brakes but also about knowing how much of each you can use which is where the practice comes in.

Originally Posted by csmith12

And everyone says "be light on the bars, be light on the bars", but common.... let's be real here. Your gunna have some weight on your arms and hands and that equals "feeling" more of those vibrations. So much so, that I don't use race grips on my bikes. I use these;


I like them because they dull out some of the "unimportant" vibrations you may feel in the bars. Espcially while braking hard.

As much as I love running with race grips, I do have to admit your grips are comfy and they take out a certain level of distraction

[mgentz]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I can't believe I didn't put this in the first cut of my above post. Your seating position and how "locked on" to the bike the rider is makes an enormous difference in how smooth the bike can feel even under extreme braking. Check out the pics here to see how the bike is reacting to my changes in seating position. I need to update that thread with more pics.

And everyone says "be light on the bars, be light on the bars", but common.... let's be real here. Your gunna have some weight on your arms and hands and that equals "feeling" more of those vibrations. So much so, that I don't use race grips on my bikes. I use these;


I like them because they dull out some of the "unimportant" vibrations you may feel in the bars. Espcially while braking hard.

I use those same grips!! They really do numb some of the vibes...

[cadd]

Originally Posted by csmith12

So far in my experience, where riders let me know they have concerns of "mild" vibration under hard braking it's almost always caused by an uneven transfer of pad material to rotor. aka... a bad or less than optimal bedding in. The cure is relatively simple, clean everything and inspect the surface of the rotor and pads. Red and green scotch brite pads & brake cleaner normally make cleaning off any light rough patches or glazing pretty easy. Next step would be to rebed the pads.

That could be it. I just changed the pads not too long ago. Went with EBC HH. I did clean the pistons, pin and rotor (with brake cleaner) prior to installation. Perhaps my bedding method isn't correct.

I basically took it easy for 100 miles. Then I did a series of back to back to back panic stops from 60mph, never coming to a complete stop...so that the pads aren't touching the hot rotor. I'll just have to find a rainy day to take it apart again to clean and re-bed after I read up on the proper bedding technique.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by cadd

Perhaps my bedding method isn't correct.

If you find a good method that works 100%, every time. Please let me know.

[SLOWn60]

Originally Posted by csmith12

If you find a good method that works 100%, every time. Please let me know.

Listening. Works every time.

[verboten1]

Oury grips are the shizz, been using them for years!

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by cadd

Link to original page on YouTube.

deglaze the rotor and replace the pads and bend your elbows more. you can brake a lot faster than that. notice how long you took between getting off the throttle and getting on the brakes. could shave off half a second there alone. seems like the biggest limit in that regard is hand positioning in that video. seems like you're releasing the clutch too late also.

[Motofool]