So I almost hit a curb

[Rafalski]

So i was at a red making a left turn. Light goes green so I go. But I think I wasnt looking properly or i gave it to much throttle not enough lean. but i was heading toward the curb. I was literaly looking at the curb as i was getting closer, I didnt panic, but im not sure how i did it.

I think i leaned more or gave it more throttle, and then i made the turn and was upright, what did my spedo say 80 km/h

So i went from a dead spot and came out of the turn doing 80. So scared when it was happening and dont ever want to experiance that situation again.

[CANTFUNCTION]

Stop looking at things you don't want to hit. You are going to go were you are looking. That is what my MSF instructors told me.

[Rafalski]

Originally Posted by CANTFUNCTION

Stop looking at things you don't want to hit. You are going to go were you are looking. That is what my MSF instructors told me.

Yeah i have no idea what the hell i did there. Its the same thing i was taught. But i was looking at it as i was accelerating and leaning more trying to get the f away.

And it worked.

[B2FiNiTY]

yeah, definitely don't look at the curb. when i run wide, it's because i'm looking wide.

[noche_caliente]

It's called target fixation and it sucks - you can't stop looking at it because you know you're going to hit it, but if you do keep looking at it, you've fulfilled your prophecy....

[addy126]

It's an odd thing and defies the very car driving skills we've known. Looking to where you want to go works every time on a bike not to mention throttling it up to make that turn carve you out of the predicament.

[demp]

looking at the inside of the turn works oh so much better glad you didn't actually hit it though,

[randomwalk101]

yup yup..it's called target fixation....i learned it in my msf course.
anyways, so i tried to expand my learning/usage of the concept. I saw this hot chick and I use the target fixation technique on her...cuz i want to hit it...anyways, didn't really work like bike though.

[demp]

you weren't leaning enough then

[DarkNinja52]

Been there and done that, not fun. For some reason you always go where you are looking, I havent figured it out yet.

as for this...

Originally Posted by randomwalk101

yup yup..it's called target fixation....i learned it in my msf course.
anyways, so i tried to expand my learning/usage of the concept. I saw this hot chick and I use the target fixation technique on her...cuz i want to hit it...anyways, didn't really work like bike though.

LMAO

[CRXTrek]

Originally Posted by addy126

It's an odd thing and defies the very car driving skills we've known. Looking to where you want to go works every time on a bike not to mention throttling it up to make that turn carve you out of the predicament.

How did adding throttle help this situation? I'm confused.

[Rafalski]

Originally Posted by CRXTrek

How did adding throttle help this situation? I'm confused.

I gave throttle and leaned more. guess it tightned up the turn. you know i dont know what i did, it was jsut last second scarry ass hit.

[tjkamper]

Sounds like you tellagraphed the turn and then leaned hard and accelerated out of it. Next time try to look through your turns and you will turn sharper and more accurately.

[istreefitty]

yes it sounds like you are lucky.

[Cali619]

Originally Posted by randomwalk101

yup yup..it's called target fixation....i learned it in my msf course.
anyways, so i tried to expand my learning/usage of the concept. I saw this hot chick and I use the target fixation technique on her...cuz i want to hit it...anyways, didn't really work like bike though.

lol aaaaalriiiiiight!!!

[andrewexd]

you went from 0 to 80km before the turn is over ? Idk I don't find my self looking through the turns like I was taught unless I do it consciously but I still turn easily (on the streets at least). Im trying to though..

[Purspeed]

You got lucky. It sounds like you were doing *almost* all of the wrong things.

Don't worry. We have all been there. It's part of the learning process.

Next time you ride, ONLY look at where you want the bike to go.

So, you say that a car is going to hit you from the left, then you look right (or where your bike and you need to be to avoid the obstacle) and steer away from the hazard.

Remember that 99% of riding is countering "survival reactions" (like chopping the throttle, target fixation, death grip on the handlebars, tunnel vision, etc.).

When in doubt, gas it. If you come into a corner too hot, use the rear brake or lean more. Or, if necessary, straighten out the bike and stop (emergencies only).

Throttle control and being smooth is the most important skills to learn. If you are smooth, the speed will come. So will the confidence. Ride precise and slow for now.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Purspeed

If you come into a corner too hot, use the rear brake

Nope.

Originally Posted by Purspeed

or lean more.

Yup.

Originally Posted by Purspeed

Or, if necessary, straighten out the bike and stop (emergencies only).

OK, but try and scrub off as much speed prior to getting yourself into the turn; once leaned over there are less options in terms of dropping speed or changing lines drastically.

[DarkNinja52]

Don't use the rear break in a turn unless you either
A. plan on stopping fully right a way.
or
B. like to highside for fun.

Just slow the F down before you turn and you won't have to worry about it

[Purspeed]

Originally Posted by Alex

Nope.

If you come into a corner too hot, you may use the rear brake to scrub off speed.

Do not use the front brake while turning or in a turn under any circumstances.

You can create a condition for highsiding if you break forward traction and the tire attempts to find traction laterally. When the lateral friction forces do provide the traction, the rear tire will near instantly find its prior speed and use the front wheel as a pivot to flip the bike.

If you apply rear brake in a turn or going straight and you lock the rear, it can cause a lateral slide. Subsequent release of the rear brake may cause a highside at speeds above 15 mph.

So, the morale of the story is to judiciously use the rear brake. That is a given under all circumstances.

If you use the front brake in a turn, the bike will almost instantly fall over to its side depending on your velocity (speed and direction). That's why at MSF schools, they explain to use the rear brake only in a turn and never touch the front brake in a turn.

Also, do not use the rear brake to slow to a stop during a turn. This will create a low side.

You want to straighten out the bike first and then slow to a stop.

[kkim]

dunno about your MSF class, but mine taught me to never use either brake once leaned over, but to straighten the bike first, then apply the brake.

use of the brakes is not good in a turn, which is why your braking should be done before entering the turn.

come in hot??? you're not paying attention to the road.

[Alex]

Purspeed, you are a bit off-base on this. The MSF teaches nothing of the sort, and neither does any other type of riding school. MSF correctly says not to grab the brakes when you're already leaned over in a turn, with the caveat that if you really have to do so, to try and straighten the bike up as much as possible before using both brakes.

If you're already in a corner, and feel that you're in too hot, then adding rear brake at that point is the absolute wrong thing to do. If it turns out that you don't crash, then the assumption that you were in too hot and would run out of cornering traction at the current speed was wrong in the first place, as even ill-advised braking didn't put the bike on the ground.

[Purspeed]

Originally Posted by Alex

Purspeed, you are a bit off-base on this. The MSF teaches nothing of the sort, and neither does any other type of riding school. MSF correctly says not to grab the brakes when you're already leaned over in a turn, with the caveat that if you really have to do so, to try and straighten the bike up as much as possible before using both brakes.

If you're already in a corner, and feel that you're in too hot, then adding rear brake at that point is the absolute wrong thing to do. If it turns out that you don't crash, then the assumption that you were in too hot and would run out of cornering traction was wrong in the first place, as even ill-advised braking didn't put the bike on the ground.

I think that you and Kkim are right about the MFS. I conflated that with some strategies that some racers use.

Most racers use trailbraking, few even brake into a turn (some all the way into the apex). All braking and downshifting should be done before turn-entry point theoretically, but in reality it's a different situation.

I agree that straightening out the bike and then apply brakes is ideally the best situation. But, scrubbing speed off using the rear brake in a turn or for reducing the rear wheel spin in relation to the front for "backing it in" are all appropriate when executed properly.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Purspeed

Most racers use trailbraking, few even brake into a turn (some all the way into the apex). All braking and downshifting should be done before turn-entry point theoretically, but in reality it's a different situation.

Agreed, but trailbraking <> rear brake use. Any racetrack trailbraking of consequence, for that matter any racetrack braking of consequnce, uses primarily the front brake. And yes, with today's tires and modern bikes, the fastest way through some types of turns has the rider still on the front brake until the apex before it is fully let off. Any rear that they are using at this point is inconsequential in terms of slowing the bike in any way, and if used at that point is only used control the attitude through the turn. Not to slow the bike down.

Originally Posted by Purspeed

But, scrubbing speed off using the rear brake in a turn or for reducing the rear wheel spin in relation to the front for "backing it in" are all appropriate when executed properly.

Nope. There's no such thing as executed properly in this context. It's the wrong reaction to the situation. Saying that a street rider should use the rear brake while in a turn when they think they are coming in to hot is not justified by any means. Watching Danny Eslick and others back the rear end in around some corners to both scrub speed and get a better angle for the corner exit is a completely different situation that has no bearing on this discussion. In most cases, they aren't even using the rear brake to pivot the bike in that way anyway, but judicious use of the throttle instead.

[Purspeed]

There's no argument over throttle control. That is clearly the problem with the OP.

However, use of the rear brake to scrub some speed in a turn is not recommended but may be sparingly used if the situation warrants.

My data is anecdotal, but if you have literature that is conclusive that absolutely no brakes, especially the rear brake in a turn, should never be used, I am interested in the read.

[Alex]

I never said, nor do I believe, that "absolutely no brakes, especially the rear brake in a turn, should never be used". I think there are several double-negatives in that statement alone, but I believe I'm interpreting you correctly.

Deciding to intiate braking while already leaned over in a turn is a dicey proposition. For one, it's a bad habit. In most cases, the motorcycle (and motorcyclist) would be safest to concentrate on just making the turn rather than braking at all as their fear kicks in. The feeling of being in too hot is a pretty common reaction for newbies, but over time they realize that the bike's cornering capabilities are much higher than they'd imagine. Any bike. But if the rider has gotten to the point where they are so concerned with their speed in the turn that they think "I gotta brake right now!", hitting the rear brake alone is the wrong reaction. Not different shades of right. Simply, clearly, and unequivocably wrong. Best case, the touch on the rear brake will be light enough that it won't upset the bike, won't slow the bike down, and the rider/bike makes the corner as planned. Worst case, the touch on the rear brake causes a loss of traction in the rear, which the rider then has to deal with successfully PDQ. In no case did using the rear brake at that point help the motorcycle make it through the turn. If the turn is successfully completed, it would have been without that rear brake usage and likely with less drama.

[Purspeed]

Now the scenario is getting more refined and we're talking about noobs only.

Regarding my copy, I am also missing a comma after the word "that" and there appears to be only one double negative. I'm getting salty.

Conjunctive adverbs, coordinating conjunctions, prepositional phrases, compound-complex sentences...MADNESS!!

[Purspeed]

ps...here's a little secret...tell not a soul.

The CHP trains its motor officers to find the "friction zone" and (tada) use the rear brake while negotiating turns. It makes the bike "behave" as though it is going much faster allowing those incredible tight u-turns and cone weaves.

But, again, this is all academic. Perhaps the CHP has something to learn from the MSF.

[Alex]

Dragging the rear brake at parking lot speeds for tighter u-turns and cone weaves is a separate issue. The CHP doesn't train its motor officers to use the rear brake only while negotiating high-speed turns, are you implying that they do?

As I understood it, we're talking about a rider coming in to a turn at a speed that they believe is too hot, and the advice was given to use the rear brake alone, as the front brake is dangerous. That advice is wrong on several levels, and I felt that it needed to be corrected.

[hybridxx]

i dunno if this is a dumb question to ask, or if its even relevant to the topic..
but does anyone know why exactly we tend to go where we're looking. during my class i really didnt buy it, but once i actually started going through the course and hitting a cone it made perfect sense. Anyone know how it works? why does our brain make us steer into whatever we look at? lol >.>? sorry if the question is a bit dumb or random.

[muffinman]

Originally Posted by Purspeed

ps...here's a little secret...tell not a soul.

The CHP trains its motor officers to find the "friction zone" and (tada) use the rear brake while negotiating turns. It makes the bike "behave" as though it is going much faster allowing those incredible tight u-turns and cone weaves.

But, again, this is all academic. Perhaps the CHP has something to learn from the MSF.

Alex is right on this, for tight spaces at parking lot speeds, rear brake is alright... but that's an entirely different scenario altogether.

[muffinman]

Originally Posted by hybridxx

i dunno if this is a dumb question to ask, or if its even relevant to the topic..
but does anyone know why exactly we tend to go where we're looking. during my class i really didnt buy it, but once i actually started going through the course and hitting a cone it made perfect sense. Anyone know how it works? why does our brain make us steer into whatever we look at? lol >.>? sorry if the question is a bit dumb or random.

I think it's something to do with our shoulders... something about looking left or right when you walk through a doorway and the shoulders naturally follow

Interesting question..

[muffinman]

Originally Posted by CRXTrek

How did adding throttle help this situation? I'm confused.

Read Keith Code's "Twist of the Wrist 2"

throttle control FTW.. lean and believe

[CRXTrek]

Originally Posted by muffinman

Read Keith Code's "Twist of the Wrist 2"

throttle control FTW.. lean and believe

You coulnd'nt take two minutes to type in an answer lol
I asked this question because increasing speed going thru the turn as he thought he was going to run off the road didn't seem right.
Shouldn't he have just leaned over farther and looked where he was going?

I believe if i hand grabbed a handful of throttle in this scenario i'd been flying over the curb.
I'm i wrong?

[DarkNinja52]

Originally Posted by CRXTrek

You coulnd'nt take two minutes to type in an answer lol
I asked this question because increasing speed going thru the turn as he thought he was going to run off the road didn't seem right.
Shouldn't he have just leaned over farther and looked where he was going?

I believe if i hand grabbed a handful of throttle in this scenario i'd been flying over the curb.
I'm i wrong?

From what I know... which isn't much...
It gives you better traction for a tighter turn once you're already at a decent speed. Unless you're able to slow down to 5mph and counterweight the bike to make an extremly tight turn, slightly rolling on the throttle should help keep the traction for a tighter turn, if you're leaning enough and properly. Somone correct me if I'm wrong

[DarkNinja52]

Originally Posted by CRXTrek

I believe if i hand grabbed a handful of throttle in this scenario i'd been flying over the curb.
I'm i wrong?

But yes, a "handful" of throttle will probably send you flying over the curb.

[tjkamper]

Originally Posted by DarkNinja52

From what I know... which isn't much...
It gives you better traction for a tighter turn once you're already at a decent speed. Unless you're able to slow down to 5mph and counterweight the bike to make an extremly tight turn, slightly rolling on the throttle should help keep the traction for a tighter turn, if you're leaning enough and properly. Somone correct me if I'm wrong

More Traction? Debatable. In this bike it is probably not a big deal, but too much throttle can cause a loss of rear traction resulting in a low side. But yes you should steadily roll on the throttle throughout the turn. The slowest part of your turn should be the enitial lean and then you should accellerate out of the courner.

What giving more throttle does help is balancing the bike at a greater degree of lean. The faster you're going the more the bike can lean over and come back up without falling. That is why you use the counterweight method with low speed manovers and not when your on the road. As you accelerate out of the turn your bike is held up during the lean with little rider input. If you did not accelerate at all through the turn and had no additional rider input, the bike would continue to fall and would not stand back up.

[Rafalski]

Originally Posted by Purspeed

There's no argument over throttle control. That is clearly the problem with the OP.

However, use of the rear brake to scrub some speed in a turn is not recommended but may be sparingly used if the situation warrants.

My data is anecdotal, but if you have literature that is conclusive that absolutely no brakes, especially the rear brake in a turn, should never be used, I am interested in the read.

I didnt come in to hot into the turn. I came in going way to wide. To the point that i had to use alot of throttle and lean to try and tighten the turn up.

Though im interested in reading more about the rear break but in a turn i would assume that losing any power in the back wheel whould have an effect on the grip and effect the lean.

I know its ok to use the front break on a downhill turn because of inertia and all the weight being on the front tire anyway.

[tjkamper]

You can use the rear break to tighten a turn, but it is very easy to lock it up and I don't recommend doinging in a panic situation unless you have built up a lot of muscle memory from practice. If you stomp on the rear break you will find yourself flat on your back with a really messed up bike. If you do use the brake, use very light pressure. .

I believe it is safer to lean more.

[Purspeed]

Originally Posted by Rafalski

I didnt come in to hot into the turn. I came in going way to wide. To the point that i had to use alot of throttle and lean to try and tighten the turn up.

Though im interested in reading more about the rear break but in a turn i would assume that losing any power in the back wheel whould have an effect on the grip and effect the lean.

I know its ok to use the front break on a downhill turn because of inertia and all the weight being on the front tire anyway.

@ Alex: my point is that using the rear brake in turns is appropriate within specific circumstances. The blanket statement characterized by "don't use the rear brake in a turn, ever" is not helpful to developing riding skills.

I will digress a bit: if you are in a large radius turn and you find yourself going wide, it is as a result of your excess speed to lean angle. So, lean more and tighten the line. This is an appropriate solution.

If you are at a stop sign and you need to make a left or right turn, you may find the friction zone and put light pressure on the rear brake for a nice turn. The CHP does teach this. The same is true for U-turns and brake and swerve manuevers.



@ Rafalski:

If you came in too wide, then you are not consciously selecting a turn entry point (and possibly apex and exit point).

When riding, everyone has a turn-entry, apex and exit point, but whether one is positioning the bike properly on the road is another matter.

So, what you ended up doing was an early apex (from what I understand) which can be very hazardous on the road. A late apex is often used by riders to see as much as possible into a turn (on coming traffic, hazards, etc.).

To tackle that very specific problem you had, when you are negotiating turns, look as far ahead as you can down the road and ride toward that point (vanishing point). For now, do not use the rear brake. When you are comfortable doing tight turns and you have found the friction zone, then you may use LIGHT rear brake to allow a precise turn and put the bike where you want it.

Use your peripheral vision so see the points on the road. Do not look down on the ground. Your eyes should be 4-5 feet above the ground looking directly ahead.