Ticket for crossing solid yellow lines for self defense

[devmasa]

If any of you have traveled the 405 southbound before UCLA, around getty center area you know how steep downhill it is and cars are always zooming past you at crazy speeds going downhill.
So today night I was in the lane next to the carpool one and was going downhill fairly fast when the SUV ahead of me in the right lane suddenly decides to pull in front of me without giving a signal.
I honked at him but the SUV still kept coming into my lane.So to avoid a definite accident I crossed the double yellow lines and got into the carpool lane.
Immediately I see CHP's flashing lights in my mirror.I said to myself "Great, serves the careless SUV driver right". But then I see the SUV pass by and realize that the CHP is actually behind me.
I tried explaining the situation to the officer but he coldly said that didn't see any SUV drifting into my lane.All he saw was me crossing the solid yellow lines to enter the HOV and wrote me a ticket for that.

So I am looking at ~$500 down the drain for no mistake of mine!
Is there any way of fighting this ? I know in the court it will be the officer's word against mine and the court will favor the CHP but can I do anything to reduce the ticket as I had crossed the lines to avoid an accident?

[jmgrande]

Go to court, explain to the judge what happened and hope for the best. Officers rarely show up for small ticket claims.



Good luck

[devmasa]

Originally Posted by jmgrande

Go to court, explain to the judge what happened and hope for the best. Officers rarely show up for small ticket claims.



Good luck

will a ~$500 ticket be classified as a small claim ticket ?

[jmgrande]

Originally Posted by devmasa

will a ~$500 ticket be classified as a small claim ticket ?

I'm not sure how it works in Cali, and I'm sure other members will have better advice on dealing with tickets, but in CT for tickets that you want to go against, you wait in line with a bunch of people also wanting out of there ticket and then you stand in front of the judge, they hear your case, and then make a ruling: pay the fine, lessen the fine, charity donation, etc.

[c717905]

You may want to see if you can get in contact with the prosecutor. Many times they will reduce the ticket to a non-moving violation if you haven't had any other citations within a certain period of time (usually 6 months or so). That will keep your insurance costs down, but might cost you a little more in the short term as "defective equipment" or any other non-moving violation usually carries a higher fine, but no points.

If you can't get anywhere with the prosecutor, by all means, go to court and have your say in front of the judge. Many of them are understanding of situations and as long as you are respectful to the court, the prosecutor and the highway patrolman, the judge will most likely have some leniency on you and reduce the fine- so long as you haven't had other violations on your driving record. Go explain the situation and see what happens.

[I'm licensed to practice law in 2 states, and I have done some simple traffic court stuff, but I'm not licensed in CA, so while I can give you general advice I certainly can't give you specific legal advice.]

[devmasa]

So in case I decide to contest it in the court, do I lose my right to request traffic school ?
Also, I mean I am not pleading "not guilty" as I did cross the solid yellow lines, but that was in an act of self-defense.
what do I declare in this case: guilty/not guilty and present my side in the court and be eligible for traffic school?

P.S: I do not have any citations in the last 3 years

[FrugalNinja250]

I can't offer any advice WRT the legal issues, but do want to say that I run a helmet cam every inch I roll, just for situations like this. I use the ContourHD but the GoPro is also reputed to be a good unit. I can't recommend running a helmet cam enough.

And it sounds like the CHP person has a hard-on for motorcyclists. There are many cops out there that despise riders and seem to make it their personal mission in life to harass and harry riders as much as they think they can get away with.

[slolane]

Just my .02 but this would here you here in MD...

1. If you have a clean record go to DMV, MVA or whatever it's called and obtain a certified copy of your driving record. You will give this to the judge while you are front and center "for their consideration"... this shows you aren't some guy with 5 points on his license and doesn't get pulled frequently. Here is costs like $2 for this.

2. Dress for court (suit), if you have any badges/ID cards for work wear them on the outside of your attire. Clean shave, hair groomed, etc... first impression scenario applies here.

3. When in front of the judge you want to plead "guilty with explanation", again this is what it's called here but will allow you to speak directly to the judge. Be clear and concise , do not ramble and do not speculate about the SUV or officer. Make sure you include the following, preferably somewhere in the beginning of your statement "I moved right into the clear lane to avoid an collision with a large SUV that drifted over into my lane. If not for my monitoring my side mirrors and making the move to safety over the painted line I would have been crushed".

4. The officers here are scheduled to show up before/after a shift or sometimes on their day off and get differential pay for it. Here it would not be showing up for one case, they are stacked up and go all at once for the cases/tickets written.


Anyway, the most important thing is you were able to avoid the collision and are safe. Best of luck, any further specifics PM me.

[CThunder-blue]

Originally Posted by devmasa

So in case I decide to contest it in the court, do I lose my right to request traffic school ?
Also, I mean I am not pleading "not guilty" as I did cross the solid yellow lines, but that was in an act of self-defense.
what do I declare in this case: guilty/not guilty and present my side in the court and be eligible for traffic school?

P.S: I do not have any citations in the last 3 years

You would want to plead "not guilty" so that it goes to trial, where you can be heard. Any other plea will be accepted as you giving in and they just assign a fine/traffic school + fine and send you on your way.

You should have asked the officer if he had a dash cam, which they almost always do these days. I would go to court and ask for a trial. Then find out what you need to do to request the dash cam recording of that incident.

As far as eligibility for traffic school, that's not negated by a "not guilty" plea. It's up to the judge if they want to allow that option for you.

[Live2ride]

My step brother got pulled over and arrested on his 250 with the police officer claiming he was running 95mph on a short stretch of up hill road with a 45 mph speed limit in Maryland. He also got charged with a DUI (underage). He went to court, stood in front of the judge and pleaded guilty. The judge gave him a stern look and said "are you sure about that plea?" To which he replied "yes, sir". The judge once again said "are you sure about that plea?", my step brother, dumbfounded, said "not guilty?". The judge said "your free to go". The arresting officer never showed up to court so he got off, he just had to pay his $1200 useless lawyer. The cop never even clocked him with his radar, even if he had clocked him, my step brother was riding with 2 other guys who sped off on their supersports. Hopefully you will get out of the ticket, good luck.

[slolane]

Yup, in MD if the officer doesn't show up your off the hook.

[wyckedflesh]

This is not legal advice, here are a few questions you will need to be able to answer from experience:

1) Could you have avoided the SUV by slowing down?

2) Could you have avoided the SUV by speeding up?

3) Could the Officer not have noticed the SUV because you were far to the left of the lane, making it SEEM to an outside view that the lane was still very open?

4) Did you STAY in the HOV lane once clear of the SUV?

My point is, we are the smaller of the vehicles, it is OUR job to make sure we always have an out to avoid a larger vehicle that may not see us because of blind spots. The SUV may have heard your horn, but still could not see you when/if the driver looked. At that point, it is your responsibility to avoid the vehicle for your safety. Since part of your safety is to stay within the laws, would you have been better off climbing on the brakes, which would have attracted the officers attention just as much as you crossing the double yellow. We as riders, especially in California, have to make sure that we have multiple ways out of a situation. As much as I hate the idea of slamming on my brakes on a Cali highway, I HAVE found that the guy behind me is just as aware of a vehicle moving into MY part of the lane as I am, and is already slowing down.

Plead your case, appear for court IF you feel that you were totally justified. If you can get out with Traffic School, and feel that it might be a better option, then take that avenue instead. You MAY also be able to request the Dash Cam recording from the officer's vehicle since your ticket is supposed to contain the date and Time if you plead your case in court.

[devmasa]

Thanks for the replies guys..yes I am definitely looking into getting a camera,I feel it is necessary with all the idiot rush hour drivers in L.A.

[maxwellca21]

In Kalifornia, CHP will always show up in court. it's their job, if they dont show up their superior will fine them. No they will not reduce the fine for you because they are desperately need money. You either can fight it or plea guilty. If you do fight it, you will lose your traffic school right.

[bluesinorbit]

Originally Posted by Live2ride

My step brother got pulled over and arrested on his 250 with the police officer claiming he was running 95mph on a short stretch of up hill road with a 45 mph speed limit in Maryland. He also got charged with a DUI (underage). He went to court, stood in front of the judge and pleaded guilty. The judge gave him a stern look and said "are you sure about that plea?" To which he replied "yes, sir". The judge once again said "are you sure about that plea?", my step brother, dumbfounded, said "not guilty?". The judge said "your free to go". The arresting officer never showed up to court so he got off, he just had to pay his $1200 useless lawyer. The cop never even clocked him with his radar, even if he had clocked him, my step brother was riding with 2 other guys who sped off on their supersports. Hopefully you will get out of the ticket, good luck.

Can a 250 even do a 95mph going uphill? I've been down the freeway that the OP mentions many times going between OC and Palmdale and I recall thinking to myself that the Ninja would have trouble getting above 70mph. My 91 Civic sure used to.

[devmasa]

Originally Posted by wyckedflesh

This is not legal advice, here are a few questions you will need to be able to answer from experience:

1) Could you have avoided the SUV by slowing down?

2) Could you have avoided the SUV by speeding up?

3) Could the Officer not have noticed the SUV because you were far to the left of the lane, making it SEEM to an outside view that the lane was still very open?

4) Did you STAY in the HOV lane once clear of the SUV?

My point is, we are the smaller of the vehicles, it is OUR job to make sure we always have an out to avoid a larger vehicle that may not see us because of blind spots. The SUV may have heard your horn, but still could not see you when/if the driver looked. At that point, it is your responsibility to avoid the vehicle for your safety. Since part of your safety is to stay within the laws, would you have been better off climbing on the brakes, which would have attracted the officers attention just as much as you crossing the double yellow. We as riders, especially in California, have to make sure that we have multiple ways out of a situation. As much as I hate the idea of slamming on my brakes on a Cali highway, I HAVE found that the guy behind me is just as aware of a vehicle moving into MY part of the lane as I am, and is already slowing down.

Plead your case, appear for court IF you feel that you were totally justified. If you can get out with Traffic School, and feel that it might be a better option, then take that avenue instead. You MAY also be able to request the Dash Cam recording from the officer's vehicle since your ticket is supposed to contain the date and Time if you plead your case in court.

1) I did slow down to avoid the SUV by hitting my brakes hard

2) No, I couldn't have safely sped up anymore as I has going downhill at a pretty fast pace.

3) Yes, very possible.In fact I was riding very left in the lane not too far from the solid yellow lines. Plus if the officer was ~30-50 meters behind me coming uphill while I was already riding downhill, I can totally see how his perception of the lanes might be wrong.

4) yes I stayed in the HOV once I was clear of the SUV

I slammed on my brakes pretty hard , I could have pushed my braking harder, but going downhill I didnt feel that was a safer option as compared to entering into the HOV

[devmasa]

Originally Posted by maxwellca21

In Kalifornia, CHP will always show up in court. it's their job, if they dont show up their superior will fine them. No they will not reduce the fine for you because they are desperately need money. You either can fight it or plea guilty. If you do fight it, you will lose your traffic school right.

Really do cali CHP always show up in court? I heard mixed opinions about this.
Are you sure about losing the traffic school right? I have read that If you plead "not guilty" and are found guilty, its up to the discretion of the judge whether or not to grant you traffic school

[devmasa]

By the way. is there any way to get the CHP's notes about the ticket or his description of the incident ?
..also, are the cop's dash cams always ON ? or are they switched on when the cop spots someone ?

[CThunder-blue]

Originally Posted by maxwellca21

In Kalifornia, CHP will always show up in court. it's their job, if they dont show up their superior will fine them. No they will not reduce the fine for you because they are desperately need money. You either can fight it or plea guilty. If you do fight it, you will lose your traffic school right.

no, they don't always show up.

[sombo]

Originally Posted by devmasa

By the way. is there any way to get the CHP's notes about the ticket or his description of the incident ?
..also, are the cop's dash cams always ON ? or are they switched on when the cop spots someone ?

Dunno about the notes on the ticket. However, I believe it is by law that they are required to have the cams on at all times during a shift. This way they have a complete record of everything they encountered that day. This can help or hurt the officer depending on the circumstances.

Not too clear on your HOV laws in cali, however in other states motorcycles are allowed to use the HOV lanes. Again, not sure how your state regulates that lane so I would look more into the laws regarding the HOV lane and see if the ticket is even legitimate.

[Alex]

CHP does not have cams in most of their cars. If you are choosing to fight it rather than just pay it, definitely consider doing a Trial by Declaration first. Basically, you ask for the TBD form, they send it to you, and you submit the bail and an explanation to the court. The officer is requested to do the same. A judge (or more likely, a traffic administrator), reviews both stories and marks you not guilty or guilty. If not guilty, you're done, and you get your money back. If guilty, you then have the option of requesting a "real" trial in traffic court, for a second attempt to try and win. At that point the officer has to show up, you have to show up, you plead your case, etc.

In terms of traffic school, you can take it at any time in the process when you have been found guilty (or plead guilty), and have stopped fighting it. So you can do that right now, you can do it after the TBD fails, or you can do it after you lose in court. Traffic school does not affect the fine for the ticket, it in fact costs a few additional bucks to take it. What it does do is keep the ticket from showing up on your insurance record, which can be a huge savings. It's not atypical for a single ticket to up someone's rates as much as $300/year, and it stays on for 3 years, so avoiding that surcharge is definitely a worthwhile exercise.

I've won TBD's before, and the last one I won, all I wrote on the form was "I do not believe the evidence supports the ticket I received". That's it.

[devmasa]

thanks for the great explanation Alex!

Originally Posted by Alex

I've won TBD's before, and the last one I won, all I wrote on the form was "I do not believe the evidence supports the ticket I received". That's it.

Did you get a chance to read the officers notes/comments when you wrote the above explanation ?

[ericdrum]

I know exactly that spot you are talking about. I'm actually most surprised that traffic was actually flowing right there. What's funny is that when it is flowing, it's like complete anarchy. It sucks that he wouldn't even acknowledge that you might be telling the truth. It seems that your maneuver would be a pretty stupid thing to do unless you were forced to. Did the ticket note that you protested his view of the infraction?

[Alex]

No, you don't get the comments back as part of the TBD response. You only get to see the comments if you file for discovery ahead of time.

IMO: This ticket is a loser. You will not win in court. The likely outcome here is for you eventually have to pay the ticket and take traffic school. Doesn't mean you don't try a TBD at least, but beyond that it's questionable how much time or energy you want to put into this if you are found guilty on the TBD.

[dino74]

I've only heard about it, some claim they've gotten out of tickets but haven't tried it. Trial by written Declaration

[Stogie]

Cops do run dash cams, if you're telling the truth. You should be able to have an attorney request the footage to prove your story. Although, if the cop's camera did not have sight of you, you're SOL.

Just go to court, you honestly have a good chance of winning.

Good luck,

[Alex]

Cops do run dashcams in general, but historically CHP has not. They have been very slow to rollout, and it will likely be years before they are common in all cruisers. Here's a link that says they have just rolled it out to approx 2k cars.

http://www.thevillagenews.com/story/54720/

[Stogie]

Originally Posted by Alex

Cops do run dashcams in general, but historically CHP has not. They have been very slow to rollout, and it will likely be years before they are common in all cruisers. Here's a link that says they have just rolled it out to approx 2k cars.

http://www.thevillagenews.com/story/54720/

Figures, that's CA for ya.

[devmasa]

Originally Posted by Alex

No, you don't get the comments back as part of the TBD response. You only get to see the comments if you file for discovery ahead of time.

IMO: This ticket is a loser. You will not win in court. The likely outcome here is for you eventually have to pay the ticket and take traffic school. Doesn't mean you don't try a TBD at least, but beyond that it's questionable how much time or energy you want to put into this if you are found guilty on the TBD.

- Is there a possbility that the court will reduce fine? (I highly doubt so)
- Does it make any sense to file for an extension ( I heard many people advice this)
- Can I get your opinion on why you think this ticket is a loser?

[Stogie]

Originally Posted by devmasa

- Is there a possbility that the court will reduce fine? (I highly doubt so)
- Does it make any sense to file for an extension ( I heard many people advice this)
- Can I get your opinion on why you think this ticket is a loser?

There is the "possibility", however; CA has persistently failed to do so in all cases involving a friend or family member of mine.

Your ticket doesn't really have loser written on it, the cop has his opinion vs. yours as you stated. Unless the cop has a dash cam to prove one way or another, that's all your case will have to fall back on.

If you have the time to fight this, there is no reason you shouldn't.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Stogie

Your ticket doesn't really have loser written on it, the cop has his opinion vs. yours as you stated. Unless the cop has a dash cam to prove one way or another, that's all your case will have to fall back on.

I dunno Josh, that's in fact why I feel this is a very hard case to win on the merits. The cop does not need video to prove that what you are saying is untrue. In traffic court, it's the other way around. The judge hears your testimony, hears his testimony, and if there are conflicting opinions about the reality of the situation, in virtually all cases the judge will support the viewpoint of the law enforcement officer. The officer isn't going to newly remember an SUV in your path, if he denied seeing it at the scene. It will be hard for you to show why the officer wouldn't have seen it.

Tickets are most easily won when the merits can be challenged (speed trap law, wrong law cited, radar/laser cert expired, speed survey out of date, etc.). And of course, if the officer doesn't show up. Other than that, it's always a very steep uphill battle.

[Xoulrath]

I have nothing to add as far as fighting the ticket goes, but I will say I am looking into a camera for protection from incidents like this. I noticed you were already considering one. Smart move.

As far as having to move into another lane, I make it my goal to always maintain distance between a vehicle in an adjacent lane and mine as though they were in my lane. What do I mean? Act as though that SUV were actually in front of you to begin with and that you are actually following him/her. Maintain that imaginary scenario or pass the vehicle. Never ride with a vehicle next to you for exactly this reason. If you are not next to the vehicle, then you won't ever have to avoid one coming into your lane unexpectedly. Always ride like the other vehicles on the road are trying to kill you.

[Jinx250]

Originally Posted by maxwellca21

If you do fight it, you will lose your traffic school right.

I call BS! You do not lose your right to attend traffic school by fighting the case.

And yes, CHP ALWAYS goes to court. OT is a wonderful thing.

[devmasa]

Originally Posted by Jinx250

I call BS! You do not lose your right to attend traffic school by fighting the case.

And yes, CHP ALWAYS goes to court. OT is a wonderful thing.

so court time is payed as Over time for CHP ? no wonder we have so many improper tickets