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Old April 11th, 2017, 11:27 PM   #1
Jerrytheclown
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Question What, and how much, should I practice before I can start hitting the street?

So I'm (hopefully) going to very shortly be buying my first bike. I've got all my gear ready and a permit as well as an MSF course under my belt but I still absolutely do not feel confident enough in my own abilities to ride around surface streets with traffic right now. I intend to practice a bunch around parking lots and in a nearby neighborhood but I was wondering what kind of stuff I should work on?

Also, there's a lot of conflicting info flying around the internet so I have a few random questions about specific stuff I've read about.
1) Am I supposed to downshift when I turn? How about when I stop? During MSF, they never told us to shift at all during turns but they did tell us to always hold the clutch and shift down into first before stopping.
2) Is there some kind of guideline for optimal RPM to MPH conversion for the Ninja 250r specifically? Like, how do I know what gear I should be in at a given speed? In MSF we never went over third gear or 20MPH, what should I expect to top out at riding 30-40MPH surface streets?
3) The place where I live has a lot of hills and stop signs on those hills. Having ridden in people's manual transmission cars and watched then do the crazy feet dance to avoid letting the car slide or stall, I'm guessing stopping and starting uphill is a pain in the butt for motorcycles as well? Any tips for this?
4)What is engine braking, really? I understood that it was a thing enough to pass the test but I have no idea what it really is beyond using the engine resistance to slow the bike. But how do I do it? Should I even bother? Is there any reason I would do it over just using the brakes?
5) How much traction does bike really have? In MSF they really hammered home traction as a limited resource but I obviously never had to put that to the test, so I have no feel for i. In a lot of motorcycle fail videos online, you'll see the rider lean to far over or something and the bike will just slide out from under them. Is that something that is easy to do? Should I be very mindful of not over-leaning?
6) Back during the course, my bike CONSTANTLY stalled. I feel like it might partially be because it was a beat up training bike but I was probably doing something wrong too. I was having a lot of trouble with the clutch because the friction zone felt really really narrow. Are all 250r's like that? If so, how do I manage it?

Ok phew. I think that's all the questions I have for now. Sorry for the wall of noob questions haha. I just don't want to be on the bike and not know what to do if something comes up. Thanks!
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Old April 12th, 2017, 03:54 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerrytheclown View Post
So I'm (hopefully) going to very shortly be buying my first bike. I've got all my gear ready and a permit as well as an MSF course under my belt but I still absolutely do not feel confident enough in my own abilities to ride around surface streets with traffic right now. I intend to practice a bunch around parking lots and in a nearby neighborhood but I was wondering what kind of stuff I should work on?

Also, there's a lot of conflicting info flying around the internet so I have a few random questions about specific stuff I've read about.
1) Am I supposed to downshift when I turn? How about when I stop? During MSF, they never told us to shift at all during turns but they did tell us to always hold the clutch and shift down into first before stopping.
2) Is there some kind of guideline for optimal RPM to MPH conversion for the Ninja 250r specifically? Like, how do I know what gear I should be in at a given speed? In MSF we never went over third gear or 20MPH, what should I expect to top out at riding 30-40MPH surface streets?
3) The place where I live has a lot of hills and stop signs on those hills. Having ridden in people's manual transmission cars and watched then do the crazy feet dance to avoid letting the car slide or stall, I'm guessing stopping and starting uphill is a pain in the butt for motorcycles as well? Any tips for this?
4)What is engine braking, really? I understood that it was a thing enough to pass the test but I have no idea what it really is beyond using the engine resistance to slow the bike. But how do I do it? Should I even bother? Is there any reason I would do it over just using the brakes?
5) How much traction does bike really have? In MSF they really hammered home traction as a limited resource but I obviously never had to put that to the test, so I have no feel for i. In a lot of motorcycle fail videos online, you'll see the rider lean to far over or something and the bike will just slide out from under them. Is that something that is easy to do? Should I be very mindful of not over-leaning?
6) Back during the course, my bike CONSTANTLY stalled. I feel like it might partially be because it was a beat up training bike but I was probably doing something wrong too. I was having a lot of trouble with the clutch because the friction zone felt really really narrow. Are all 250r's like that? If so, how do I manage it?

Ok phew. I think that's all the questions I have for now. Sorry for the wall of noob questions haha. I just don't want to be on the bike and not know what to do if something comes up. Thanks!
I admire your enthusiasm to do things the right way, but a lot of the stuff you're asking about is more advanced than a beginner rider would use or know if they're doing right or wrong (until the crash, that is). My advice is to keep it slow, put a few miles on it in a small neighborhood or parking lot, and really get a feel for what the bike does. Go at speeds where you won't be put into mortal peril if you lose traction, and keep that gear on. Everyone here could tell you everything we all know, but you wouldn't really learn anything until you threw a leg over and experienced it.

1)When you're IN the turn, you shouldn't usually shift, brake, roll off the throttle, or do anything to affect your speed (there are exceptions, but don't worry about that just yet). BEFORE the turn, it's a good idea to downshift sometimes if you're planning on cornering quicker. At higher RPM's, the bike becomes more stable because the spinny-spinny of the engine creates centrifugal gyroscopic force that helps to stabilize you. I personally wouldn't worry about it too much at this point. That said, if you enter a corner at too high of a gear and your bike starts to jerk or stalls, it'll probably come sliding out from under you.

2)I personally keep the RPM's at least at ~6,000. You could shift all the way up to 5th at 40mph, but the bike would be unresponsive to your throttle if you needed to get up and go real quick, and would likely need to downshift twice if you needed some extra speed for some kind of emergency maneuver. I'm not gonna tell you what gear you should be in at those speeds, but keep it somewhere that the bike responds well, but doesn't leave the engine screaming at an unreasonable level. It's something you gotta feel for yourself.

3)Most motorcycles have wet clutches with only a few exceptions. A wet clutch, like a ninja 250 has, can take more abuse than you might think. Also, the first gear on a ninja is TALL SHORT. You should have little trouble climbing hills with it once you get the hang of it. I'd avoid hills until you've got a decent grasp on how to ride the bike. I personally think it's easier on a motorcycle, as you've got 4 limbs you can use for controls as opposed to 3 pedals with 2 legs.

4)Engine braking was a lot more useful back when motorcycles exclusively used drum brakes. Now, with disc brakes, like a ninja has, it's not quite as important. You should still learn engine braking eventually, as it can be useful to eek a little bit more stopping power out of the bike, and it's helpful for slowing on uncertain ground. Here are two links that can explain it better than I can:

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/E-Z_shi...s#Downshifting

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Braking...g_the_throttle

5)First off, you don't lean the bike. The bike leans YOU.* Traction depends on a lot of things. If you hit the tiniest patch of oil, it's impressive how quickly you can lose traction. And, you'll learn to notice just how many oil spots are really out there. (How do SO many people have oil leaks?! It still impresses me.) It also depends on how your suspension is set up, how heavy or light you are, and (SUPER IMPORTANT) your tires. Read WAY up on tires and don't just take one person's word for it. It also depends on the bike itself. Short answer on how much traction a bike has is: enough, if you know how to harness it.

6) Some people think the friction zone on a ninja is too small. I've never had an issue with it. One thing that helped me was lubricating the clutch cable. It's really important that it's smooth, and not notchy. When first learning to ride, you might not know the difference. I didn't.

*This is further elaborated on in A Twist of the Wrist II, which I and most other members on this site will HEAVILY endorse. Buy the movie or the manual. If you're like me, buy both! It'll be the single greatest riding resource you can buy, and you're sure to refer back to it for years to come.

Another good resource is here:

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Riding_Techniques

Glad to have you on our forum, Jerry!

Last futzed with by MrAtom; April 13th, 2017 at 11:16 AM. Reason: Correcting a few mistakes :)
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Old April 12th, 2017, 06:02 AM   #3
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Good questions and good response!

I have a few things to add and amplify upon.

First of all, BRAVO for having the right attitude about this and getting training. It's going to keep you safe while you learn. I'd like to recommend you pick up a copy of David Hough's Proficient Motorcycling for street smarts. It's kind of like the MSF training but a lot more comprehensive. Ken Condon (Riding in the Zone -- google it... good videos) is also big on street safety.

To answer your first, overall question: I'd practice low-speed stuff, street strategies and vision.

Low-speed stuff: When you're a complete beginner, things like turning from a stop, going down a sloped driveway into the street, coping with uneven or loose surfaces at a stop, etc. can be really nerve-wracking. Not to mention low-speed parking lot maneuvers (remember the infamous Figure 8?). Nerves can tense you up, so practice until you're totally comfortable wrangling the bike... stopping, starting, slow turns, etc. The fact that you passed MSF is great, but that doesn't mean you've mastered those skills. Keep practicing. Pro tip: You will go where you look. Look down, go down. Lift your vision and look where you want the bike to go. This is especially true at low speeds.

Street strategies: The good news is that this is a mind game, not something you need to do on your bike. Every time you drive your car (or ride in one), pay close attention and think about riding your bike. Look ahead. Anticipate. All that stuff. Get your head into your riding mindset. Think about what you'd do on a bike in any situation. Turn off your stereo and stop driving on autopilot... make your drive time learning and practice time.

Vision: Always, ALWAYS look where you want the bike to go. Target fixation causes a lot of crashes. Spot the hazard, but LOOK BEYOND at your escape. There are many, many crash videos where you can see the rider target fixate and freeze, riding right into what they wanted to avoid.

To answer your specific questions, Mr. Atom did a good job answering. Here's a bit of additional stuff to chew on.

1) Atom is right: Once the turn has started, don't make additional control inputs (the caveat is right too... you're a beginner, so we're keeping it simple). That means you should have slowed and downshifted (if called for) BEFORE the turn, so you'll be in the gear that you want coming out of the corner. Once in the corner, repeat this mantra: "One the throttle is cracked open, roll on smoothly and continuously throughout the remainder of the turn." Repeat that 10,000 times. Smooth. (PS: It's gyroscopic force )

2) Agree with Atom. The Ninjette doesn't make a lot of torque so keep those RPMs up. As you gain experience and confidence, you'll find that the party really starts at about 9,000 rpm. It's a fallacy to try to link speed and rpm. What matters is whether you're in the right gear for any given situation. Stop focusing on the speedo... focus on the tach. Race cars and bikes don't have speedos! Geezer tip: If you can't wrap your head around ignoring the speedo, use "the rule of elevenses" Shift first to second at 11 mph, second to third at 22, third to fourth at 33, etc. Believe it or not, it works.

3) Starting a bike on a hill is a lot easier than it is in a car, because you can operate the brake and the clutch at the same time. The process is no different from the basic friction-zone work you did during MSF. Find a gentle slope on a side street or parking lot and practice. The difference between hill starts and getting going on the flat is that on a hill, you have to simultaneously work the brake, throttle and clutch. You don't need a death grip on the brake... a couple of fingers will do, and that will relax your right hand enough to operate the throttle.

4) Think of engine braking as, well, a brake. Your definition is correct. All it means is that you're off-throttle, so the wheel is turning the engine and not the other way around. It's what happens when you downshift, as the engine spools up to accommodate the gear you're in. As Atom said, don't worry too much about it. Focus instead on being in the right gear for every situation. Pro tip: You don't have a gear indicator. Get used to counting gears so you know where you are and don't get surprised by being in a too-high or too-low gear.

5) Ah, the great unknown. Yeah, it's hard to know how big the traction pie is. The bike has more traction than you think it does, and has a whole lot more ground clearance than you think it does. Given the way you're approaching this you're unlikely to get in trouble; you'll be nowhere near the limits of traction. The real point about traction is to be gentle. Don't grab brakes all at once. Don't whack the throttle all the way open while leaned over. Etc. Manage the resource... See throttle mantra (Throttle Rule #1) above. There's a lot to learn here about braking technique, throttle technique, body position, etc. For now, just keep it smooth but don't be overly timid.

6) It's a matter of getting used to it. Don't blame the equipment. It's just that you don't have experience. Back to basics... keep practicing and it'll come.

Have fun out there! ATGATT.
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Old April 12th, 2017, 06:10 AM   #4
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MrAtom gave you good answers. 1-4 will become clear very quickly with a little practice, as your own preferences develop. 5 is harder to answer. It comes with experience. There is a limit to traction on any particular surface, and you'll learn to spot sand, gravel, oil, water, ice, etc., and your brain will automatically make decisions, but that won't happen right away. If you're lucky, assuming a little more traction than exists will cause a minor slide, and you'll feel that and back off. On clean pavement, with reasonably good tires, you can lean far enough to scrape the foot peg feelers. Not that you should try to do that.
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Old April 12th, 2017, 07:33 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by adouglas View Post
snip

(PS: It's gyroscopic force )

snip

Geezer tip: If you can't wrap your head around ignoring the speedo, use "the rule of elevenses" Shift first to second at 11 mph, second to third at 22, third to fourth at 33, etc. Believe it or not, it works.

snip
Hey! Even I learned some new stuff!
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Old April 12th, 2017, 09:30 AM   #6
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Looking it over, I have one other thing to add.

Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist II (both book and video) are very useful resources. While much of what's there is oriented more towards the track, one of the core elements -- Survival Reactions, or SRs -- is a really important set of concepts.

Thinking back to when I was new, knowledge of SRs would have helped me a lot. The mental image as you read the following is to visualize going into a corner too hot. What do you do? What's going through your mind? How do you keep from crashing?

Caveat: This is stuff that warrants deep thought and right now, the OP is trying to get the basic physical skills sorted. I'm including it here for reference. Don't get overwhelmed and tied up in knots over this. Keep things simple and follow the advice above.

Survival Reactions:
1. Rolling off the gas - You go into a corner too hot, you're riding out of your comfort zone, a mattress falls of a truck in front of you, whatever.... your instinct is to chop the throttle. This upsets the bike and also pitches it forward, which might overload the front tire and cause loss of traction if you're near the limit. It also changes your intended line. You see this happen in a lot of those crash videos... people lose confidence halfway through and chop the throttle, which causes the crash.

2. Tightening on the bars - You get scared and tense up. This causes unintended steering inputs and/or prevents you from making proper control inputs.

3. Narrowed and frantically hunting field of view - You're looking everywhere except where you should -- where you want the bike to go. Not knowing what to look at, you try to look at everything. Panic. Information overload.

4. Fixed attention (on something) - Classic target fixation. Go in too hot, you look at that scary edge of the pavement and can't pull your eyes away. You focus on that car that's cut you off. You can see this in crash videos all the time. Riders see the hazard, stare at it and right straight into it.

5. Steering in the direction of the fixed attention - See above. You go where you look!!!

6. No steering (frozen) or ineffective (not quick enough or too early) steering - Decision lock. See SR2 above. See SRs 4 and 5 above. You feel like you can't get the bike turned because you're hyperfocused on what you're trying to avoid instead of focusing on avoiding it in the first place. "Not quick enough" and "too early" mean early apexing, which makes you run wide on exit.

7. Braking errors (both over-and under-braking) - Overbraking is panicing and grabbing too much brake, too fast. This is the reason why they teach you not to cover the front brake in the MSF course... because as a beginner you're more likely to grab that brake too hard. Like a new driver trying to shove the brake pedal through the floorboard. Under-braking is like ineffective steering - decision lock. If anyone ever says "I just had to lay the bike down" this is one of the things they did, along with all the other SRs that make them slide right into the thing they're trying to avoid.
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Old April 12th, 2017, 10:51 AM   #7
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I'd like to recommend you pick up a copy of David Hough's Proficient Motorcycling
I completely agree with everything mentioned in the previous posts. And x2 about getting Proficient Motorcycling by David Hough. It's a book aimed at more "real world" scenarios (beginner riders, commuters, your everyday rider). It's an easy read and easy to grasp.

Where as Keith Code's TOTW2 is more difficult to comprehend as a total beginner because it's hard to associate what he's talking about without the experience of being on two wheels under your belt.
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Old April 12th, 2017, 12:28 PM   #8
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I completely agree with everything mentioned in the previous posts. And x2 about getting Proficient Motorcycling by David Hough. It's a book aimed at more "real world" scenarios (beginner riders, commuters, your everyday rider). It's an easy read and easy to grasp.

Where as Keith Code's TOTW2 is more difficult to comprehend as a total beginner because it's hard to associate what he's talking about without the experience of being on two wheels under your belt.
Agreed. Code also has a, shall we say, "unique" communications style.

FYI Hough also has a follow-up to Proficient Motorcycling.

Right now, the important thing is to get in that seat time. Don't let the flood of information overwhelm you. You're starting off on the right foot. Stay curious, keep that eternal learner mindset going. You're gonna have a great time!
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Old April 12th, 2017, 01:29 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Jerrytheclown View Post
So I'm (hopefully) going to very shortly be buying my first bike........... Sorry for the wall of noob questions haha. I just don't want to be on the bike and not know what to do if something comes up. Thanks!
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/I_want_...es_can_I_do%3F

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Riding_Techniques

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/My_bike...this_normal%3F

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/E-Z_shifting_for_beginners

Whatever you do, don't forget to breath, look far ahead and keep hands, arms and shoulders relaxed.

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Old April 12th, 2017, 03:16 PM   #10
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Agreed. Code also has a, shall we say, "unique" communications style.

FYI Hough also has a follow-up to Proficient Motorcycling.
Really?! What's the book called? I read Proficient Motorcycling at least 3x cover to cover. I usually read it around Feb each year when withdrawal symptoms are at its worst.
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Old April 12th, 2017, 05:30 PM   #11
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1- downshifting in a turn- no. Downshift before your turn or when coming to a stop if you like.

2- I second the advice to look at your tach for gear choice rather than speedo. I generally accelerate up to 8,000 or 10,000 rpm before I shift. I'm not even sure exactly what speed that means, but it doesn't matter. I'll shift down if I need to get the rpms up for accelerating quickly.

3- Hills- you can use the rear brake to keep you from rolling backwards while getting going. This leaves your hands free to work throttle and clutch.

4- Engine braking, just let off the throttle and let the engine slow you down. I downshift, let the engine slow me, and use the brake as needed when coming to
a curve or a stop.

5- As a beginner, you won't lean very much, most likely. It's ok. You don't have to. There are things you can learn about cornering, but it's not a competition about how much you can lean it over. The bike is actually more stable if it's leaned over less and you lean off the bike to the inside of the corner.

6- The friction zone is relatively narrow. You get a feel for it (like so much of riding a bike). It requires a certain amount of throttle to keep the rpms up, while you let the clutch out (which lowers the rpms). You balance the two.

I agree with playing the mind-game while driving. Watch how traffic patterns go. Who goes where? Are there cars flying up from behind you? Where do they go when they come up to where you are? Who's likely to move where in traffic? Where are there dangers?

A *lot* of this can be predicted if you're paying attention.

You're going to be overloaded for a bit, but once you start to get a hold on the basics of operating the bike, start reading books. I need to get Twist of the Wrist but I've been reading Lee Parks' "Total Control" and it's really useful.
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Old April 12th, 2017, 05:54 PM   #12
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3)Also, the first gear on a ninja is TALL. You should have little trouble climbing hills with it once you get the hang of it.
All good, practical advice in this thread. And good questions to start it off. All I'd quibble with is that the first gear on a ninjette is incredibly "short", not "tall". What that means is the engine is spinning quite fast compared to the road speed, which is why we have to shift up to second so quickly. A "tall" first gear is on something like kawi's literbikes, which redline at > 100 mph in first gear, while our smaller engined bike redlines at much closer to 30 mph in first gear.

All that means though, is that it is ridiculously easy to start this bike moving without stalling it, even on a hill. The slightest bit of throttle to get the revs up a little, and there is a ton of torque multiplication, due to that incredibly short gearing. Tall gearing requires much more clutch finesse to leave the line smoothly without stalling or giving it more go than would be needed. The ninjette is aimed at beginner riders, and makes starting, shifting, etc. ridiculously accessible, which is a good thing.
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Old April 12th, 2017, 08:55 PM   #13
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Really?! What's the book called? I read Proficient Motorcycling at least 3x cover to cover. I usually read it around Feb each year when withdrawal symptoms are at its worst.
In a masterful stroke of non-creativity, it's called "More Proficient Motorcycling: Mastering the Ride."

https://www.amazon.com/More-Proficie.../dp/1931993033
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Old April 13th, 2017, 09:59 AM   #14
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Thanks for all the detailed advice every one! I'll definitely look into those recommended books!
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Old April 13th, 2017, 11:10 AM   #15
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I really should have proofread my post more carefully.
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Old April 13th, 2017, 04:27 PM   #16
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I completely agree with everything mentioned in the previous posts. And x2 about getting Proficient Motorcycling by David Hough. It's a book aimed at more "real world" scenarios (beginner riders, commuters, your everyday rider). It's an easy read and easy to grasp.

Where as Keith Code's TOTW2 is more difficult to comprehend as a total beginner because it's hard to associate what he's talking about without the experience of being on two wheels under your belt.

There is also a video version of TOTW2 which breaks things down into very sizeable chunks that may be easier to understand than the book.

I would also suggest a more advanced riding school or course because a lot of these skills that the OP is asking about can be difficult to practice and learn proficiently without some hands on guidance.

A lot of riders think that they should get some miles and some practice under their belts before heading to a more advanced riding school but I disagree with that philosophy. I think that gaining more advanced skills immediately, in a safe and controlled environment like a track is the perfect place for someone like the OP to get the answers to his questions. The California Superbike School (where I've coached for the past 13 years) is a perfect example. We don't train riders that have never ridden a motorcycle before but as long as they have the basic controls understood then they can attend.

In level one of the school the students would learn proper counter-steering techniques and gain an understanding of one of the most fundamental and important techniques, throttle control among other important foundational skills.

Anyway, I'm happy to answer questions on the inter webs and think that forums, books and videos are a great option for learning but in my opinion, nothing beats heading to a riding school and getting hands on training, techniques and experience early on in your riding career so that you learn the proper techniques FIRST and don't have to go back and undue bad habits.

If you have any questions about the California Superbike School or Keith Code's books or videos please let me know! Happy learning and safe riding everyone!!
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Old May 10th, 2017, 04:40 PM   #17
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Thanks for all the detailed advice every one! I'll definitely look into those recommended books!
At this moment, you probably know enough to get around the streets. Just need to practice the skills so it's automatic. Do the following in parking lots lots:

1. starting. Get the throttle-clutch-throttle sequence down so you can start quickly. Not speeding through the intersection quickly, but quickly from the moment you think "go" to having the clutch released and throttle increasing. Get it down to less than 1-second. Practice using more and more throttle as you let out the clutch to the point where you're at 100% throttle at the moment the clutch-lever is fully released.

2. throttle-control. Don't be afraid of the throttle! Get used to giving it more and more gas after you've release the clutch. Do straight-line exercises of starting-accelerating-stopping. After you start, give it full-throttle for 3-4 seconds, then stop. The MSF classes used to have indicator-lights on the bikes so that the instructors know much throttle you're using and if you're wimpy, they tell you to give it more throttle. There are many, many situations where more throttle will save your hide, even your life. Get used to using full-throttle, straight-line for now.

3. braking. After you get moving, practice squeezing-in clutch then braking to stop. Don't worry about downshifting yet, you can do that once you're completely stopped. After you accelerate at full-throttle after starting, practice front-braking harder and harder. You can start with the both brakes simultaneously, then lighten up on the rear as it starts to slide. You'll find that there's tremendous traction under braking. Practice pushing back with your arms and sliding back in the seat while maintaining control of the bars and brake-lever.

Repeat #1, 2, 3 until you're completely comfortable with full-throttle starts, full-throttle straight runs, maximum-braking. These being automatic without worrying about concentration will make it much easier to ride on the street as you'll have more reserve brain processing power to gather info about cars, terrain, etc.
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Old May 11th, 2017, 10:41 AM   #18
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At this moment, you probably know enough to get around the streets. Just need to practice the skills so it's automatic. Do the following in parking lots lots:

3. braking. After you get moving, practice squeezing-in clutch then braking to stop. Don't worry about downshifting yet, you can do that once you're completely stopped. After you accelerate at full-throttle after starting, practice front-braking harder and harder. You can start with the both brakes simultaneously, then lighten up on the rear as it starts to slide. You'll find that there's tremendous traction under braking. Practice pushing back with your arms and sliding back in the seat while maintaining control of the bars and brake-lever.
Ok, so I appreciate you taking the time to write out some suggestions and things to practice in parking lots or somewhere safely but there are a few things here that I disagree with.

1. In terms of braking, I never squeeze the clutch in first and then brake. This is backwards. You want to get on the front brake lever quickly but smoothly and work on coming to smooth controlled stops by using the front brake first. Pull in the clutch once the bike is slowed down before you come to a complete stop to avoid stalling or who cares about stalling/downshifting for now, just get the braking practice down. Quickly apply the brakes without a stabbing or jabbing motion, smooth progressive but strong pull on the lever to get stopped quickly.

2. Pushing back on the handlebars with your arms under hard braking is a bad idea. You want your arms to be as relaxed and loose as possible without any added pressure into the handlebars as that could cause the front to shake or wobble or to pitch to one side or the other. You DO want to keep yourself from sliding forward into the tank but you should be doing that by using your legs pinching into the tank and NOT your arms pushing on the bars.

I've attached a link to an article I wrote on Emergency Braking here:

It covers all the basics and clarifies some of what I've written above. Enjoy
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Old May 11th, 2017, 02:01 PM   #19
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Good points on braking technique. Just some clarifications:

1. I really mean clutch & brake at same time. Track training on autos has "both feet in" suggestion. Similar on bikes. Because at some point, he's going to be in 2nd or 6th gear when he starts braking and won't have the luxury of squeezing clutch at the very end. Should practice clutching-in when braking. Whether to downshift and blip gear-by-gear or at very end is personal preference.
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Old May 16th, 2017, 09:33 AM   #20
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Good points on braking technique. Just some clarifications:

1. I really mean clutch & brake at same time. Track training on autos has "both feet in" suggestion. Similar on bikes. Because at some point, he's going to be in 2nd or 6th gear when he starts braking and won't have the luxury of squeezing clutch at the very end. Should practice clutching-in when braking. Whether to downshift and blip gear-by-gear or at very end is personal preference.
I still disagree. When I'm riding it's always brake first THEN clutch in, downshift/blip, clutch out (still maintaining pressure on the brake lever). Whether you are going from 6th to 2nd (turn 2 at Laguna Seca) you need to scrub off your speed first with the brakes and then downshift (with or without the clutch). Clutch pull in comes after.

If you're on the street and coming up to a stop light or stop sign I'd still get on the brakes first and pull in the clutch after I'm sufficiently slowed down. I can get lazy on the street and not downshift at a light but just pull in the clutch while still in 4th gear but I'd always do my braking first.

Maybe it's just a matter of wording here as there is a point where the brakes and the clutch will be engaged at the same time but it still follows the format of front brake first, clutch in, downshift, clutch out, or come to a stop with the clutch pulled in.
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Old May 16th, 2017, 10:17 AM   #21
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I still disagree. When I'm riding it's always brake first THEN clutch in, downshift/blip, clutch out (still maintaining pressure on the brake lever). Whether you are going from 6th to 2nd (turn 2 at Laguna Seca) you need to scrub off your speed first with the brakes and then downshift (with or without the clutch). Clutch pull in comes after.

If you're on the street and coming up to a stop light or stop sign I'd still get on the brakes first and pull in the clutch after I'm sufficiently slowed down. I can get lazy on the street and not downshift at a light but just pull in the clutch while still in 4th gear but I'd always do my braking first.

Maybe it's just a matter of wording here as there is a point where the brakes and the clutch will be engaged at the same time but it still follows the format of front brake first, clutch in, downshift, clutch out, or come to a stop with the clutch pulled in.
You know a LOT of stuff that I don't, so can I pick your brain on this a little more?

I exclusively ride street for now and the forseeable future. What I do is hold the clutch in and downshift to match my speed as approaching a red light. If the light turns green, I never have a problem letting out the clutch as I've gotten good at matching my coasting speed to which gear I'm in. Is what I'm doing dangerous or incorrect? If so, why?
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Old May 16th, 2017, 01:15 PM   #22
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I'm interested in what Misti has to say too (because every time she posts, I learn something new), but I'll jump in here.

Transitions of any kind have the potential to upset the bike. Typically that happens when things are done too abruptly: grabbing the brake, whacking the throttle open, dumping the clutch. Smooth is where it's at. The bike is happier.

Consider that when you let out the clutch, if your speed, gear and revs aren't matched perfectly you're moving from free coasting to really noticeable engine braking. That's a significant transition. If you've selected too low a gear (as we all have, from time to time), it can be really upsetting to the chassis and even cause the rear to lose traction.

So if you're riding around with the clutch pulled in and held, you're forcing a situation where you must make multiple transitions (off the brakes, let out the clutch, roll on the throttle) all at about the same time, before you can go about your business. If you're in a calm, controlled situation, like rolling up to a red that's about to turn green, great.

But what if the situation changes?

One of the most valuable lessons I've learned from the track is that simplifying your workload is always a good thing. The less I have to do at any one time, the better, because I can pay more attention to high-priority things like brake lever pressure, turn-in point and line selection.

I see nothing "wrong" with rolling up to a red light with the bike in the correct gear to accelerate through and the clutch pulled in. But in the interest of consistency and good habits, I typically have the clutch out. The only time it's in is the brief moment of shifting and held in/feathered out when pulling away from a stop.
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Old May 17th, 2017, 04:30 PM   #23
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You know a LOT of stuff that I don't, so can I pick your brain on this a little more?

I exclusively ride street for now and the forseeable future. What I do is hold the clutch in and downshift to match my speed as approaching a red light. If the light turns green, I never have a problem letting out the clutch as I've gotten good at matching my coasting speed to which gear I'm in. Is what I'm doing dangerous or incorrect? If so, why?
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I see nothing "wrong" with rolling up to a red light with the bike in the correct gear to accelerate through and the clutch pulled in. But in the interest of consistency and good habits, I typically have the clutch out. The only time it's in is the brief moment of shifting and held in/feathered out when pulling away from a stop.
I like what adouglas has said here. To cruise up to a red light with the clutch pulled in in no big deal but generally speaking you don't want to be "coasting" with the clutch pulled all the way in, ever. Like he says above, consistency and good habits would have you downshift to the gear you need an let the clutch back out, only pulling it all in at the red light or stop signs etc to prevent you from stalling the bike. Its going to be quicker and safer to have the bike ready to accelerate if you need to take evasive action for any means.

Also, if you get a bit complacent with coasting it can creep into other areas of your riding and THAT is where it can become really unsafe. Sometimes riders coast THROUGH corners or down hills and that is what we want to completely avoid.

Does this answer your question? Why wouldn't you want to coast through a corner?
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Old May 17th, 2017, 05:07 PM   #24
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I like what adouglas has said here. To cruise up to a red light with the clutch pulled in in no big deal but generally speaking you don't want to be "coasting" with the clutch pulled all the way in, ever. Like he says above, consistency and good habits would have you downshift to the gear you need an let the clutch back out, only pulling it all in at the red light or stop signs etc to prevent you from stalling the bike. Its going to be quicker and safer to have the bike ready to accelerate if you need to take evasive action for any means.

Also, if you get a bit complacent with coasting it can creep into other areas of your riding and THAT is where it can become really unsafe. Sometimes riders coast THROUGH corners or down hills and that is what we want to completely avoid.

Does this answer your question? Why wouldn't you want to coast through a corner?
I always figured it'd be easy enough to let the clutch out and take evasive action, but easier is much better than easy-enough when in spooky situations when a little mistake might mean getting clobbered by a car or not.

I'm aware that coasting through a corner is a HUGE no-no. I appreciate both yours and @adouglas responses. I'll stop coasting up to lights and start downshifting again

I can't even think of how I got started doing that. I think it was last summer when my bike was getting warmer than I'd have liked when in traffic, and I wanted to cool it down more. I've since flushed the cooling system, and the bike now stays at an appropriate temperature for much longer when in traffic.

I guess that's another lesson that can be taken away from this: don't let mechanical problems turn into riding problems.
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Old May 18th, 2017, 05:15 AM   #25
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I was thinking about this thread on my commute home last night. That's one of the cool things about skill discussions... you can go out and see if what you were thinking aligns with what you actually do.

I have a typical suburban commute, which often involves things like conga lines of cars doing the start/stop accordion thing, creeping forward waiting for lights to change, etc. It's SO much fun... sometimes I work late just to be able to actually ride home.

You're not really riding. It's more like the first MSF exercise where they have you duck-walk the bike across the parking lot to learn about the clutch friction zone.

Naturally, in a situation like that the "keep it in gear with the clutch out" thing does not apply because you might be going 2 mph for a few seconds, stopping for a few seconds and repeating.

So yeah... depending on circumstances, I do pull the clutch in and hold it, but it's really only in those high-density, near-zero-speed scenarios. With no traffic, I tend to act as previously stated.

Same situation (embedded in a line of creeping cars) I also drop it into neutral and sit up quite often. No real point in being ready for immediate action when nobody's going anywhere.
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Old May 18th, 2017, 10:45 AM   #26
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I always figured it'd be easy enough to let the clutch out and take evasive action, but easier is much better than easy-enough when in spooky situations when a little mistake might mean getting clobbered by a car or not.

I'm aware that coasting through a corner is a HUGE no-no. I appreciate both yours and @adouglas responses. I'll stop coasting up to lights and start downshifting again

I can't even think of how I got started doing that. I think it was last summer when my bike was getting warmer than I'd have liked when in traffic, and I wanted to cool it down more. I've since flushed the cooling system, and the bike now stays at an appropriate temperature for much longer when in traffic.

I guess that's another lesson that can be taken away from this: don't let mechanical problems turn into riding problems.
LIKE.

I cannot figure out how to "like" a post or find it helpful or whatever...how do I do it?
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Old May 18th, 2017, 11:06 AM   #27
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LIKE.

I cannot figure out how to "like" a post or find it helpful or whatever...how do I do it?
You gotta have at least 1,000 posts
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Old May 23rd, 2017, 02:09 PM   #28
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You gotta have at least 1,000 posts

ahhhhhh thank you!
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