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Old May 20th, 2012, 01:15 PM   #1
jayman87
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Cam Chain Replacement Advice

Need some advice guys. I have a 2007 ninja 250 with about 7300 miles on it. For maybe two months now my bike has been rattling pretty badly. I’m pretty sure it’s the cam chain. A few weeks after it started I ordered a new tensioner and installed it. No change. So now I’m looking into replacing the cam chain.

My question is, is there a manual tensioner that would fit my bike and solve the problem. Or do I have no choice but to disassemble the engine to replace the chain. If so can anyone recommend a good guide on just how to do that, and maybe an engine rebuild while I’m in there. I’m hoping to avoid it but I’m confident I can do the work. I’ve done my own oil change, valve adjustment, and carb cleaning.

Any advice or comments would be greatly appreciated.
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Old May 20th, 2012, 03:05 PM   #2
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No manual tentioner for the first gen bikes. Pulling the engine down is fairly easy. You can do it if you have a manual and tools . Let me know what you are going to do. I will be glad to help.
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Old May 20th, 2012, 03:08 PM   #3
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anyone know what the link to link distance should be for a normal cam chain?
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Old May 20th, 2012, 03:14 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alex.s View Post
anyone know what the link to link distance should be for a normal cam chain?
20 Link length
Standard: 127-127.4mm
Service Limit: 128.9mm
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Old May 20th, 2012, 03:17 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by jayman87 View Post
Need some advice guys. I have a 2007 ninja 250 with about 7300 miles on it. For maybe two months now my bike has been rattling pretty badly. I’m pretty sure it’s the cam chain. A few weeks after it started I ordered a new tensioner and installed it. No change. So now I’m looking into replacing the cam chain.

My question is, is there a manual tensioner that would fit my bike and solve the problem. Or do I have no choice but to disassemble the engine to replace the chain. If so can anyone recommend a good guide on just how to do that, and maybe an engine rebuild while I’m in there. I’m hoping to avoid it but I’m confident I can do the work. I’ve done my own oil change, valve adjustment, and carb cleaning.

Any advice or comments would be greatly appreciated.
There is a manual tensioner that you can get, but it will not help you if the cam chain has stretched.

If the tensioner rocker is at the extent of it's travel the only option you have is to replace the chain.
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Old May 20th, 2012, 03:18 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flynjay View Post
20 Link length
Standard: 127-127.4mm
Service Limit: 128.9mm
for how many links is that? 4?
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Old May 20th, 2012, 03:23 PM   #7
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what are the effects on the engine of a stretched cam chain? its pulling on the chain from the exhaust side right?. the chain stretch means its retarding the valve timing right? with the intake side slightly more retarded than the exhaust side... with the stock 250 cam timing, what would the effect of that be?... opens and closes intake later, opens and closes exhaust later...

@RacerX would probably know... it would make a bigger vacuum before opening the intake right? it seems like there wouldn't be any risk of the intake hitting the piston... and the exhaust... would open too late not letting the exhaust gasses escape quick enough once the force is put on the piston... would make it run hotter right? so the stretched chain shouldn't really cause damage directly outside of running hotter and with less power?
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Old May 20th, 2012, 04:24 PM   #8
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In a nut shell advancing the cam timing will help bottom end power. Retarding the timing will help with top end RPM. But there is lots more to it. I like to open the exhaust valve just a little early but that is for a specifi type of tuning.

Streaching is not good breaking is really bad.
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Old May 20th, 2012, 04:31 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flynjay View Post
There is a manual tensioner that you can get, but it will not help you if the cam chain has stretched.

If the tensioner rocker is at the extent of it's travel the only option you have is to replace the chain.
You're right I didn't think about the rocker's travel, I'd still like to hear about the manual tensioner though.

Anyway I guess I'm going for the engine rebuild and chain replacement. I gotta put together a list of tools and parts I'm gonna need. I think I'm gonna buy a cheap motorcycle lift from Harbor Freights to hold and move the once its removed. I checked ninja250.org, they give you a list of parts for the rebuild, but for instructions they just recommend a service manual. I downloaded a copy of it but didn't really like it.
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Old May 20th, 2012, 04:47 PM   #10
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Welcome to the site Jay!

One or both of the neoprene guides of the chain may be worn out or broken.
I would inspect those first.

With proper lubrication, that chain should be almost new.
Cam chains serving over 100K miles are not uncommon for the old generation of Ninja 250.

The automatic tensioner should be able to keep its position without backing up (and producing slack); that is the function of a properly lubricated ratcheting mechanism.

Measuring the actual path of the chain (rather than any slack) is the way to diagnostic its condition.

When the chain is really stretched out, the lever that the tensioner pushes reaches a point that hits the crankcase and no further adjustment is possible.
That is what I have learned from Mark Krieger, who makes a manual cam chain tensioner.
http://www.kriegercamchaintensioners.com/

The advantage of the manual tensioner is that the pressure of the OM spring-plunge is eliminated, and non-back up is a sure thing.
The only danger is over-tensing the chain or neglected periodic adjustment (every 5K miles or so).

I have heard that some people have cut the chain and ribetted a new chain (just like the secondary chain) instead of opening the engine for replacement; however, I don't know the details or results.

I would replace the cam and clutch sprockets together with the chain.
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Old May 20th, 2012, 05:16 PM   #11
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Good point on the sprockets and checking the guides. I don't have that much experience with the first gen engine. But I have one that needs a new crank . I will get that engine out and on the bench tomorrow.
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Old May 20th, 2012, 07:28 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alex.s View Post
for how many links is that? 4?
Under some tension, 20-link length cannot measure more than 128.9 mm, according to the service manual.
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Old May 20th, 2012, 09:04 PM   #13
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for how many links is that? 4?
20
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Old May 20th, 2012, 09:06 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alex.s View Post
what are the effects on the engine of a stretched cam chain? its pulling on the chain from the exhaust side right?. the chain stretch means its retarding the valve timing right? with the intake side slightly more retarded than the exhaust side... with the stock 250 cam timing, what would the effect of that be?... opens and closes intake later, opens and closes exhaust later...

@RacerX would probably know... it would make a bigger vacuum before opening the intake right? it seems like there wouldn't be any risk of the intake hitting the piston... and the exhaust... would open too late not letting the exhaust gasses escape quick enough once the force is put on the piston... would make it run hotter right? so the stretched chain shouldn't really cause damage directly outside of running hotter and with less power?
If the chain is loose enough the intake cam will skip a tooth. Then you have piston to valve contact.
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Old May 20th, 2012, 11:52 PM   #15
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20 teeth measuring 12cm? ...something about that seems obscenely off. is the pregen and newgen the same chain size? i must have horrible size memory
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Old May 21st, 2012, 07:24 AM   #16
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That is only 5", Alex.
The chain is a size 25 ANSI, which has 1/4" (6.35 mm) pitch and 0.130 in (3.30 mm) roller diameter.
Ten links in new condition should measure exactly 2-1/2".
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Old May 21st, 2012, 07:32 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Motofool View Post
I have heard that some people have cut the chain and ribetted a new chain (just like the secondary chain) instead of opening the engine for replacement; however, I don't know the details or results.
I used this technique on an old '81 Honda CB250 many years ago and it worked like a charm. It's been a very long time since I did that job and I remember little to none of exactly what I did.

I suspect the new camchain was designed to be rivetted in place after being looped over the crank and camshafts. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have split an endless chain.
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Old May 21st, 2012, 07:58 AM   #18
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20 teeth measuring 12cm? ...something about that seems obscenely off. is the pregen and newgen the same chain size? i must have horrible size memory
The newgen has a different cam chain tensioner setup. You may be able to get away with a manual tensioner since you are not necessarly constrained by the rocker mechanism of the old setup.

Looking through the parts fiche, it seems there is a seperate part number for the two chains. I don't know the difference.

Newgen: 92057-0156
Pregen: 92057-1210
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Old May 21st, 2012, 09:12 AM   #19
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i'm wondering what could cause it to stretch so fast? 20k miles isn't that much. the sprocket on the cam is one piece right? so to replace the chain means replacing the sprockets which means replacing the cams also?
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Old May 21st, 2012, 09:26 AM   #20
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Sprockets unbolt. Once you take it apart you will find out the answer. Maybe
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Old May 21st, 2012, 06:10 PM   #21
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First and foremost, I want to thank everyone for their advice. After I run errands, I think I’m gonna do an oil change tomorrow. That sounds like a good opportunity to poke around while there is no oil in the engine. I think I’m gonna open the top part of the engine. Inspect the cams and cam sprockets, turn the engine to inspect the chain, and I might open the clutch cover to look at the clutch sprocket. I’ll check the filter and the oil screen for anything to be alarmed about. I’ll probably do the actual rebuild and chain replacement in June though (when I have the money for parts).

I’ll check this thread again before I start if anyone has anything to add.
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Old May 21st, 2012, 07:57 PM   #22
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I reset the CCT according to the manual and the horrible rattle seemed to go away but it came back.

I think I need to try a manual CCT. Been doing it since before 30K miles.

Last futzed with by CZroe; May 23rd, 2012 at 02:14 PM.
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Old May 22nd, 2012, 08:09 AM   #23
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I reset the CCT according to the manual and the horrible rattle seemed to go away but it came back.

I think I need to try a manual CCT.Been doing it since before 30K miles.
It seems that your problem is pointing toward the replacement of the cam chain rather than another cam chain tensioner.

That's what I was pointing out in this other thread: http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=104410
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 02:16 PM   #24
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It seems that your problem is pointing toward the replacement of the cam chain rather than another cam chain tensioner.

That's what I was pointing out in this other thread: http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=104410
To be clear: I'm still on my original CCT. Never replaced it and never confirmed it was anything more than "the Kawi click" except that I believe it would be described as "the Kawi rattle" if it sounded like mine.

Were you saying that I should not try an initial replacement or was your suggestion made under the impression that I had already done so?
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 02:31 PM   #25
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the cct is non-return type, so if you reset it and it stops ticking, but then the tick comes back, that means the CCT at full tension must be causing the click right? or maybe its that it isnt really non-return and somehow its "loosening up" or something. maybe the chain guide that the cct pushes on that rotates is somehow getting stuck fully extended? im curious to know what is actually making the noise when you hear the "chain rattle"... is it the chain hitting the guide? guide hitting the cct? cct itself?
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Old June 19th, 2012, 11:01 AM   #26
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Well I finally have the money for parts and tools. I ordered a new cam chain form ronayers and I’m going to pick up this motorcycle lift later today or tomorrow.

http://www.harborfreight.com/1500-lb...lift-2792.html

I expect the new chain to be here Monday. So as long as I don’t get called away for work (my job requires travel) I’ll start removing the engine Sunday. I’m betting the spark plugs and coolant haven’t ever been changed so I got those too, as well as a new oil filter and some more Shell Rotella T6. I think I’m gonna go to cyclepedia for their service manual.

Question, do I need to buy all new gaskets/seals or can I reuse the old ones.

While I’m doing all this, I’m also gonna replace the rear suspension with one from a ‘08+ model, and install extra brake lights into my rear pods.

As always, open to questions comments and suggestions.
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Old June 19th, 2012, 11:10 AM   #27
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Question, do I need to buy all new gaskets/seals or can I reuse the old ones.
i always screw up the clutch cover gasket... might just be me though. the other gaskets you are dealing with is valve cover gasket (ive never had one get damaged), the cct gasket (ive never had one get damaged) the sparkplug seal things (never even seen one damaged) and the stator side cover... thinking about it i don't think there's a gasket on the stator side.

i like to use rtv on stuff.
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Old June 29th, 2012, 04:08 PM   #28
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Progress so far

So here's where I am right now

First and foremost I thought I'd have more time to work on this, but it's all a lie. In the few minutes I could sneak away it's been 100 degree weather. But that's enough crying for one day.



I got the engine ready to dismount but I had a thought. The sprocket from the crankshaft that the cam chain connects to is behind the clutch cover. What if I can remove the camshafts and create enough slack in the cam chain to slip it right under the sprocket (probably have to remove the clutch, we'll see). Then just pull it right out of the top.



I would still have to see exactly how it rides along the guides and check the guides for ware, but this could save me a lot of time and effort. Or add a lot of time and effort when it blows up in my face. I'll find out when the camshafts come out tomorrow.

As always question, comments , suggestions, insults, angry rants, ect, ect.

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Looks like I'll have to try some things, then I'll update with any finds and solutions, for reference.
Good Luck. I let you know if it works.
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Old June 29th, 2012, 05:34 PM   #29
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remove the clutch plates and basket then the hub. you will need a clutch vice tool. it looks like a pair of vice grips with long teeth at the end that connect to two bars that slide into the groves of the clutch. then use an impact wrench to remove the clutch hub bolt. don't bother trying by hand. unless you have a 3 foot breaker bar, you aren't going to get it off, even with a 3 foot breaker bar its a pain in the ass. the impact wrench will remove it in 10 seconds. once the clutch hub is off i think the gear that connects to the crankshaft gear comes with it, and you might be able to slide the chain over the crankshaft gear. maybe. either way you need to take that off to split the engine, so if you dont have to split the engine with that off, sweet.
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Old June 30th, 2012, 09:17 PM   #30
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remove the clutch plates and basket then the hub. you will need a clutch vice tool. it looks like a pair of vice grips with long teeth at the end that connect to two bars that slide into the groves of the clutch. then use an impact wrench to remove the clutch hub bolt. don't bother trying by hand. unless you have a 3 foot breaker bar, you aren't going to get it off, even with a 3 foot breaker bar its a pain in the ass. the impact wrench will remove it in 10 seconds. once the clutch hub is off i think the gear that connects to the crankshaft gear comes with it, and you might be able to slide the chain over the crankshaft gear. maybe. either way you need to take that off to split the engine, so if you dont have to split the engine with that off, sweet.
You can get the clutch hub nut off, but it isn't easy. I did it by getting the bike into 6th gear, holding the rear brake and using the biggest wrench i had (2ft long). Took a little doing but it came off.

Hardest part of it was getting it into 2nd. Once there just click it up to 6th. That provides the largest gearing to hold the hub still.
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Old July 1st, 2012, 01:00 AM   #31
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It comes off in about three seconds with an impact wrench. Also, get the clutch tool so you don't bust your transmission. And the output shaft needs to spin in order to shift up past second
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Old April 19th, 2014, 02:13 PM   #32
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............When the chain is really stretched out, the lever that the tensioner pushes reaches a point that hits the crankcase and no further adjustment is possible.
That is what I have learned from Mark Krieger, who makes a manual cam chain tensioner.
http://www.kriegercamchaintensioners.com/

The advantage of the manual tensioner is that the pressure of the OM spring-plunge is eliminated, and non-back up is a sure thing.
The only danger is over-tensing the chain or neglected periodic adjustment (every 5K miles or so).
..........
http://www.kawasakimotorcycle.org/fo...er-review.html
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Old April 21st, 2018, 12:33 AM   #33
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?

What was the resolution to this?
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Old April 21st, 2018, 02:10 AM   #34
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Old April 21st, 2018, 06:44 AM   #35
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Name: Bill
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Join Date: Mar 2017

Motorcycle(s): 2007 Kawasaki 250 Ninja, 1982 Honda Ascot FT500

Posts: A lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayman87 View Post
Need some advice guys. I have a 2007 ninja 250 with about 7300 miles on it. For maybe two months now my bike has been rattling pretty badly. I’m pretty sure it’s the cam chain. A few weeks after it started I ordered a new tensioner and installed it. No change. So now I’m looking into replacing the cam chain.

My question is, is there a manual tensioner that would fit my bike and solve the problem. Or do I have no choice but to disassemble the engine to replace the chain. If so can anyone recommend a good guide on just how to do that, and maybe an engine rebuild while I’m in there. I’m hoping to avoid it but I’m confident I can do the work. I’ve done my own oil change, valve adjustment, and carb cleaning.

Any advice or comments would be greatly appreciated.
I would be amazed if you need to replace your cam chain at 7,300 miles. I bought my 2007 one year ago with 9,500 miles. The entire valve train seemed a-bit noisy to me. I removed my cam chain tensioner cleaned it with Brake Clean, lightly coated the moving parts with a film of Amsoil Synthetic lithium grease and reinstalled it. There is no way, on a pre-gen, that any oil gets to the tensioner. Possibly fumes but the tensioner is essentially not lubricated in any direct way. I adjusted the valves and my 2007' is as quiet as a mouse (as far as my camshaft drive is concerned). I think you're making a-lot of unnecessary work and expense for yourself.

Just a note. After I adjusted my valves I thought I messed-up, it was still pretty noisy. 1,600 miles later it's nice and quiet. This proves what I've read here that there is a fair amount of valve seat recision on these Ninjas.

Bill
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