riding my ninja 250

[james250ninja]

i love the ninja 250s old gen and new, but why do i get the attitude from some riders NOT ALL BUT SOME that have 600 think thta 250 shouldnt even be consider a sports bike, they say there no power and those that put an aftermarket exhaust on a ninja 250 are a bunch of wanna beees 600..

i hate that. anyone ever get this around town or anywhere

[Liist]

I got this crap (jokingly) from a former 250 owner! The 250 is plenty enough power to get you around town and you will beat every car at the front of the stoplight easily. I haven't met one 600 owner that talks smack rider better in the street or even on the track. Those that respect the 250 usually used to ride them or have been passed by one on a track.

What's considered a sportsbike to them is a very narrow definition according to those riders. They'll basically only consider a supersport with at least a 600cc engine and a really forward leaning angle.

[CC Cowboy]

For your information; people that ride liter bikes think 600s are just for girls (sorry girls).

[GateKeeper]

just hang around a bunch of scooter riders.......just look at the envy on their faces...they show towards your 250.....


Just kidding......

pay no attention to them is the best I can offer,,,,heck I am going from a 750, to a 250, so what's the big deal, it's still a bike, it will still get me to work taking the same amount of time, I still can't go 150 to get to work, if we got caught dong 150 we would lose the bike, and be charged with racing, I don't need the headache....

[blink]

Originally Posted by trixter

nope, even met a guy the other day with an older 750 and his friend with a BMW about 600 or so. They were nice, as are most people in this area. Met a guy with a zx10 and he and his girlfriend were both nice.

I think that the people who get bigger bikes and put down smaller ones are trying to justify their purchase.

My boss at work did not put down my 250 but he does not seem to think smaller bikes are good for him because you cant go 150 on em. He also never took an MSF type course, does not wear all the gear (seen videos of him in shorts), thinks it takes great courage to ride by myself around my house (its rural mountain roads), thinks the best way to go over a board in the road is to pop a wheelie and just have the rear tire cross it, etc.

I think you will find that those who think that 600 is the smallest bike that should exist are also the ones that have a bunch of weird views on other things too.

Motorcycles should be a tool, a means to an end. You reach in the toolbox and get the right tool for the job. For me a 250 gets better fuel economy and due to rogue gangs of youths running into the road and whatever else you cannot open up a bigger bike on these roads. Why pay a higher initial cost, higher tire costs (you dont get a big bike to get crappy tires and go slow), higher insurance, burn fuel faster if you can almost never acutally use the bigger displacement? Its a tool, I reached into the toolbox and selected what I thought was the right tool for the job.

Very true, only dicks put down smaller bikes.

But your thoughts are a bit hazy on the displacement issue, as to what is considered "using" the displacement.

Using it doesn't mean full throttle every minute.
People get a bit confused, now for me getting a 600 was just to experience it. You accelerate quicker, leans different. It's a different experience.

What about those harleys with 1200+cc? Displacement is large but they aren't as crazy as crotch rockets, it's a different experience.

[etiainen]

Lots of people are ignorant and misinformed. They see the need to pointlessly put down things they don't understand, because they don't want to.

Their loss...

[drac]

I am confused also about the "you can almost never acutally use the bigger displacement" comment. I have owned a number of 600's and while I have not hit top speed on every one of them. I have used "close" to the all the power and displacement available. I am not a pro by any means so I am sure there was probably a few horsepower left.

My point being you don't have to go ultra fast to use "all" the displacement. You can use all the power/displacement and never get out of 2nd gear.

[akshay11]

I've heard mostly good things about the 250 which is why it was the only bike I was looking at for a good month before I bought my 650, but for some reason I too have a friend who rides a cbr600rr, and when I was talking to him a few weeks ago about buying a bike he told me that he started on a ninja 250 and then proceeded to tell me not to get one under any circumstance. Must've had a bad experience with it idk.

[Liist]

My friend who had a pre-gen got rid of it in six months because he said he quickly outgrew it from a couple of track days.

He proceeded to crash his new CBR600RR the first time out, so I don't know what to say.

[drac]

Motorcycles should be a tool, a means to an end. You reach in the toolbox and get the right tool for the job. almost never acutally use the bigger displacement? Why pay a higher initial cost, higher tire costs (you dont get a big bike to get crappy tires and go slow), higher insurance, burn fuel faster if you can almost never acutally use the bigger displacement? Its a tool, I reached into the toolbox and selected what I thought was the right tool for the job.

I think the context was pretty clear. You asked a rhetorical question.
I believe your statement regarding the inability to "almost never acutally use the bigger displacement" to be false. My contention is that regardless of displacement, it can and does get used quite often.

For me a 250 gets better fuel economy and due to rogue gangs of youths running into the road and whatever else you cannot open up a bigger bike on these roads.

There are more ways to use all the power/displacement on a motorcycle than just "opening" it up(as in going fast). You can use every ounce of horsepower a bike has(any bike) in a 35mph turn.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by drac

You can use every ounce of horsepower a bike has(any bike) in a 35mph turn.

I don't follow. On what bike would you be able to reach its peak horsepower at 35 mph?

[blink]

Originally Posted by trixter

No they are not. I am quite clear on what I think and why I think it. You appear to have taken specific statements about specific roads I ride daily and then generalized them to different roads I was not commenting on.

BTW its not the bore size of the cylinder that alters the lean of a bike.

Yes they are.

I never mentioned bore size affecting lean...

[drac]

horsepower is related to RPM not speed....Are you saying if a bike produces 50hp, it only makes that hp in 6th gear flat out? If a bike can make 50hp in 6th gear then it can make 50hp in 2nd....or damn close to it.
If you look at a Dyno sheet it gives hp in relation to rpm, yes?

That is my understanding, please correct me if I am wrong.

[Alex]

HP is related to RPM, yes. A typical hp graph is below:



The peak hp on a 600 (100 - 110 hp) is up around that 12,000+ rpm range. But the problem is that at 12,000 RPM, those bikes are already going 55 - 60 mph in 1st gear. In 2nd gear, that rpm translates to about 80 mph. At 35 mph, even in 1st gear, the revs are around 7000 rpm, and if you look at the dyno chart, that means even at full throttle in 1st gear, at 35 mph the engine is only producing 40 - 45 hp.

You can play with the gearing on www.gearingcommander.com to confirm. None of this means that nobody should buy larger displacement bikes. But the statement that you can't use the full power on these bikes for more than a moment or two just about anywhere on the street is relatively accurate. By the time you are at full power in 1st gear, you're already at highway speed.

Now "full power" isn't the same thing as "full throttle". Of course you can be in a higher gear at lower speeds, and put on full throttle, but as the dyno chart shows, the bike won't be making that much hp, and you can hold full throttle for a period until it gets into a range where it is making more power.

Short answer, other than the 250, there isn't a sportbike out there that is making peak hp anywhere near 35 mph, no matter what gear they are on.

[drac]

I kinda agree with what you are saying Alex BUT if you entered a 35mph corner in 1st gear at 32-33mph and jumped on it I feel you could exit said corner at 55-60 and would have tapped somewhere near the peak hp.

Picture a back country road with a 35mph(posted) curve followed by a long straight. You break hard and late apex the turn and then just freakin' jump on her. I have done it as i am sure you have also. You don't think you have tapped a hell of a lot of the hp out of the bike a time or two?

[Alex]

That's not what I interpreted your statement to mean.

Originally Posted by drac

You can use every ounce of horsepower a bike has(any bike) in a 35mph turn.

No sportbike is making anywhere near every ounce of horsepower it has at 35 mph. Sure, you can go full throttle, but that's not the same thing.

But that's a good thing anyway. If a bike really was trying to put 100+ hp to the rear wheel at 35 mph, it would pop the front wheel in the air and/or spin the rear tire anyway.

[drac]

No they don't make max hp at 35mph but you stated yourself they do make it at 55-60. If I go into a 35mph turn and come out at 55-60 I have used all the available hp in the act of negotiating a 35mph(posted) turn.

[Alex]

Sure - if you keep the 600 in first gear, and you're approaching 60 mph. Of course, if it's a literbike, it's more like 90 - 95 mph in 1st before you're at the power peak.

[drac]

I said bigger displacement which refers to bore size.

I am curious...what is the bore size on a ninja 250 and what is the bore size on a cbr 250?

Bore size does not equate to displacement.

[akima]

Originally Posted by drac

I kinda agree with what you are saying Alex BUT if you entered a 35mph corner in 1st gear at 32-33mph and jumped on it I feel you could exit said corner at 55-60 and would have tapped somewhere near the peak hp.

Picture a back country road with a 35mph(posted) curve followed by a long straight. You break hard and late apex the turn and then just freakin' jump on her. I have done it as i am sure you have also. You don't think you have tapped a hell of a lot of the hp out of the bike a time or two?

^ There's a word for that: "post-rationalisation". The act of rationalising your prior actions (or statements in this case) using reasoning which was devised after making the action (or statement).

[drac]

Ummmm............ you are gonna need to point out where I changed my rationale. It has been pretty consistent throughout.

[akima]

Originally Posted by drac

Ummmm............ you are gonna need to point out where I changed my rationale. It has been pretty consistent throughout.

Ok!

The clue is in the bold text.

Originally Posted by drac

There are more ways to use all the power/displacement on a motorcycle than just "opening" it up(as in going fast). You can use every ounce of horsepower a bike has(any bike) in a 35mph turn.

Becomes...

Originally Posted by drac

I kinda agree with what you are saying Alex BUT if you entered a 35mph corner in 1st gear at 32-33mph and jumped on it I feel you could exit said corner at 55-60 and would have tapped somewhere near the peak hp.

Picture a back country road with a 35mph(posted) curve followed by a long straight. You break hard and late apex the turn and then just freakin' jump on her. I have done it as i am sure you have also. You don't think you have tapped a hell of a lot of the hp out of the bike a time or two?

Ta da! The magic of post-rationalisation!


Edit: I should also point out that there is evidence of a logical fallacy taking place in your argument. The specific falacy in this case is refereed to as 'moving the goal post'.

Edit again: I should also point out that I don't hate you! It's possible to post-rationalise and make fallacious arguments without even realising you're doing it. I do it sometimes. We're all stupid humans (and squirrels) after all.

[drac]

LOL...now I am making fallacious statements.

Lemme get this straight..... you are basing your psycho-babble on the fact that in one post I said "in" and in another post I said "exit"?

Oh and by the way every corner has an exit...it's intrinsic.

My logic is sound.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by drac

Oh and by the way every corner has an exit...it's intrinsic.

Circles.

[Alex]

It was a 35 mph corner, now it's a corner that you can exit at 60 mph. You won't be seeing full power on a 600 until that higher speed, and you won't see full power on a 1000 until almost 40 mph past that. It's the nature of these bikes, so the statement earlier in this thread that it's hard to see the full power of a sportbike on the street rings true.

None of that directly translates into a rule that owning powerful bikes is useless because of that behavior. Using even a portion of their full power capabilities remains as fun as ever, right?

[Xoulrath]

Uhmm...you did say you could use ALL of the power IN the 35 mph corner. Alex already showed you why you are wrong. After he brought forth this information, you then mentioned EXITING the corner. They are two completely seperate things.

Don't get me wrong here. I agree with you; you can, in fact, use ALL of the power a 600 has on the streets. But it is limited to those first two gears, and even then, especially in second, you will more than likely be breaking some laws.

But what you initially stated was that you could use all the power IN the corner. Again, Alex already mentioned why that would actually be a bad thing.

[drac]

I am not here to get in a pissing match with everyone.

A corner has three components entry, apex and exit. My assertion was that during at least one of those components you can use close to max hp. I felt I stated a fairly cogent argument. That is all.

You guys disagree and that's cool.

We all know it's not about hp....it's about the fun factor as Alex said.

[Zola]

Just to lighten the moment...

Wouldn't it be easier and so much more fun to ride liter motorcycles or Vespas rather than continuing this thread to page two? Liter bikes or scooters - the discussion is less than moot without a Masters from MIT (Wolowitz has one and rides a scooter) or enough moolah, cash, cabbage, dinero, credit, Benjamins, money supply, money orders, currency, or medium of exchange to ride what you want, when you want. Steve McQueen did. Malcom Smith (I hope you all know who he is - if not, google him) does.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by drac

I am not here to get in a pissing match with everyone.

Well that simply won't do. Our raison d'etre is pissing matches all around!

[drac]

LOL....are those two guys from the "Blue Man Group"?

[KawiKid860]

Short answer, other than the 250, there isn't a sportbike out there that is making peak hp anywhere near 35 mph, no matter what gear they are on.

Not to be rude or anything, and I don't have the graphs and what not to show it, but the Ninja 500 makes peak hp at 9000 rpm, which is roughly around 35mph. and its peak hp is roughly twice that of the 250s... but thats all its got and then you have to shift lol. Not much value to the argument, I just wanted to point it out

[blink]

Originally Posted by trixter

I said bigger displacement which refers to bore size. You then tell me how the lean is different and I am wrong. I believe you even said its a different experience. Well displacement refers to bore size. Bore size does not affect lean if it did a 1 liter harley would lean the same as a 1 liter supersport.

I do not feel like quoting it, but you can scroll up and see your post "correcting" me on this issue. Its right up there. And you are wrong, bore size does not affect lean.

Alright, bigger displacement = more weight. More weight = different leaning technique

[Alex]

Originally Posted by KawiKid860

Not to be rude or anything, and I don't have the graphs and what not to show it, but the Ninja 500 makes peak hp at 9000 rpm,

I said sportbike.