Strange no power problem - replaced almost everything

[Fewski]

I have a 1996 Ninja 250. Got it as-is. It had no power when I got it, so obviously something electrical related. When I say no power, when I turn the ignition to "on" the dash doesn't light up at all and if I hit the start button it doesn't turn over (or click). Got a new battery and started replacing stuff... feel like I've done everything that could cause it, but nothing.
I've replaced the following:

Wiring Harness
ECU/Ignitor
Ignition Switch
Right Bar controls (starter button)
Battery
Fuse Box
Kick stand sensor
Rectifier

Like what else is there that it could be? This is getting stupid crazy! I'm pretty mechanically inclined, but this is stumping me. Just out of curiosity, I tried to jump the solenoid and the engine turned over... checked for spark, and didn't appear I was getting spark if that matters.

HELP?! Any ideas?

Thanks!

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Check the continuity of all your grounds, then check the voltage of everything. If you don't have a multimeter you should be able to get one from a hardware store that checks continuity (resistance would work) and voltage for $15.

[Fewski]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerRy

Check the continuity of all your grounds, then check the voltage of everything. If you don't have a multimeter you should be able to get one from a hardware store that checks continuity (resistance would work) and voltage for $15.

Thanks for the reply!
I though about the grounds and checked all the connections. The only grounds that were on the bike itself were 1 on the engine and 1 on the water housing mount under the gas tank. Am I missing one?

I do have two wires next to the ECU that aren't connected to anything. One of them is a black and yellow wire, the other is a white and black wire. I know black and yellow wires are the grounds... I looked at wiring diagrams and can't find what these two (appear to go to the same thing) go to.

Thanks again!

[HoneyBadgerRy]

The ground wire is a thick wire that goes from the motor to the battery. This wire appears to be in tact. There is a thinner wire spliced to this wire than connects the wiring harness ground to well ground. The wiring harness ground needs to be grounded for the ignition or the gauge cluster to work.

There is a barb fitting (like the turn signal connector) that connects the splicer on the battery ground to the wiring harness. I think this might be your problem.

I harness ground should be near the fuse box.

Try and connect your loose ground to ground and see what happens.

[SLOWn60]

This is a tough lesson for you to learn, Mike but it is a good lesson for you and everyone else:
If you have a problem and want to fix it yourself; before you spend a bunch of money on "maybe it's the...": buy or download the service manual for your bike ($100?) and a multimeter. The service manual has step by step troubleshooting lists that will logically take you to success for the least money! There may be more than one problem but to just guess can get very expensive and frustrating and may not get you to the source of the problem!

[Fewski]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerRy

The ground wire is a thick wire that goes from the motor to the battery. This wire appears to be in tact. There is a thinner wire spliced to this wire than connects the wiring harness ground to well ground. The wiring harness ground needs to be grounded for the ignition or the gauge cluster to work.

There is a barb fitting (like the turn signal connector) that connects the splicer on the battery ground to the wiring harness. I think this might be your problem.

I harness ground should be near the fuse box.

Try and connect your loose ground to ground and see what happens.

Both the main ground that goes to the engine and the smaller ground are both connected. The wire that isn't connected as mentioned in the last post is further "up" - toward the front of the bike, probably 5 inches further in the loom than the battery secondary ground (if that all makes sense. Either way, i tried to connect that into the battery ground also and nothing happened. Those two wires that aren't connected to anything (black and yellow , white and black) have a double barb fitting, instead of just the single one.

Thanks again. I just want to get this thing running.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Originally Posted by Fewski

Both the main ground that goes to the engine and the smaller ground are both connected. The wire that isn't connected as mentioned in the last post is further "up" - toward the front of the bike, probably 5 inches further in the loom than the battery secondary ground (if that all makes sense. Either way, i tried to connect that into the battery ground also and nothing happened. Those two wires that aren't connected to anything (black and yellow , white and black) have a double barb fitting, instead of just the single one.

Thanks again. I just want to get this thing running.

Those are likely the acc power.

Still go through everything with a multimeter and find out where power is going, and where it isn't.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Fewski

.........
I've replaced the following:

Wiring Harness
ECU/Ignitor
Ignition Switch
Right Bar controls (starter button)
Battery
Fuse Box
Kick stand sensor
Rectifier

Like what else is there that it could be?.......

Welcome, Matt !!!

There are more safety switches to check.
Also, the pick up coil and the spark coils.

As stated above, testing is less expensive than replacing.

Concentrate on the starting system first, then on the ignition system.

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Electrical_%26_Lighting

There is no mystery; if you cannot fix it with a hammer, it is an electrical problem.

[adouglas]

+1 on the manual.

It is easily the best bang for the buck of anything you will ever buy for your bike. Same for your car.

After many years of struggling with Haynes and Chilton manuals, and trying to figure things out on my own, I finally broke down and bought the factory manual for my car. I've never looked back... it's the very first thing I order when I get a new vehicle.

And yet, it's the one thing that people seem most resistant to actually spending money to purchase. I guess people just don't value information very highly in the age of the Internet.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Originally Posted by adouglas

+1 on the manual.

It is easily the best bang for the buck of anything you will ever buy for your bike. Same for your car.

After many years of struggling with Haynes and Chilton manuals, and trying to figure things out on my own, I finally broke down and bought the factory manual for my car. I've never looked back... it's the very first thing I order when I get a new vehicle.

And yet, it's the one thing that people seem most resistant to actually spending money to purchase. I guess people just don't value information very highly in the age of the Internet.

If I were to get something new in would get a manual, but buying stuff used, I typically just ask for the information I need on forums. Its worked out well so far.


And to the other poster. "If it can't be fixed with a hammer, it's an electrical problem." There are so many things wrong with that. Yes I know its not made to be taken literally, but jeez.

[Ghostt]

Main 30A fuse on top of solenoid? Or solenoid itself?

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

Have you checked +12vdc to chassis?
then
+12vdc top of 30A fuse?

Does the starter get 12vdc when you hit the starter button?

[Ghostt]

I was asking of the OP checked to see if the main 30A fuse was good.

He listed everything else but that, and did her replace the solenoid?

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

Originally Posted by Ghostt

I was asking of the OP checked to see if the main 30A fuse was good.

He listed everything else but that, and did her replace the solenoid?

No. A lot of other things though (hopefully saved for backup).

[InvisiBill]

If there's absolutely nothing when you turn the key on, it should be pretty simple to track down. Power comes out of the battery, to the starter relay/main fuse. The white wire goes from the main fuse to the ignition switch. The ignition switch connects the white wire to the brown wire, which feeds pretty much all the switched circuits in the junction box. Power goes through the Taillight fuse and out the red/blue wire, which powers the dash lights that should come on with the key.

As the last few people said, the first place to look is the 30A main fuse, then start working your way through the circuit to see where you're losing power.

The wiring diagram will be extremely helpful.

[crazymadbastard]

What Ghostt states is my guess. There is a connector that hides a 30 amp fuse that clips onto the starter solenoid. Unhook it solenoid connector and check the fuse under there.

[Fewski]

Thanks for the reply all. Was able to make some progress... The ground connection on the solenoid was loose. Ugh.

Now i have power... Horn works and when i turn the key to the on position, the oil light illuminates. No neutral light when in neutral however. I checked the wire by the sprocket and replugged it in 3 times, nothing. Doesn't even try to crank with the clutch lever pulled in.

There is a very faint clicking noise in the fuse box (not the solenoid). I hooked up my spare one and same with that box.

Jumped the solenoid to check for spark, and no spark either.

Thinking it might be something with the neutral switch? Is there a way to bypass it?

Thanks again!

[csmith12]

Most likely a safety switch issue, side stand specifically... try giving it a good cleaning. There is a faq on how to bypass them on the wiki.

[Fewski]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Most likely a safety switch issue, side stand specifically... try giving it a good cleaning. There is a faq on how to bypass them on the wiki.

Tried bypassing it, still the same result.

[RacinNinja]

CLutch switch.

If it's not hooked up, jump the wires in the connector together to bypass. Just like the kickstand sensor.

[csmith12]

Well there are 3 safety switches... If it's not the neutral switch or side stand, then has to be the clutch switch.

[InvisiBill]

The sidestand switch doesn't affect starting, only riding (when the clutch is released and it's in gear).

Check the yellow/green wire at the junction box. That goes to the clutch switch, and should be grounded when either the clutch is pulled or the bike is in neutral. The neutral switch goes through the clutch switch for the starter circuit, so check out the clutch switch connection (3-wire plug on the left control) if you get nothing on the yellow/green wire.

[Fewski]

Sorry for the late update. I was able to get it to turn over and have the dash lights. Sprayed a bit of starting fluid in the carbs to see if it would start since i didn't have the tank installed. It started!! But it was late and put it away for the nigh. Next morning tried to start it... Nothing.

I have no spark now. It's in neutral (and the dash light is on), so that should be fine. Kickstand switch wouldn't matter since it's in neutral, but bypassed it anyways, nothing. Clutch shouldn't matter either because of neutral.

I did a little reading and sounded like possibly the stator died. Replaced that, nothing.

Ughhhh.

Any ideas? It's almost there at least!

Thanks

[RacinNinja]

I don't supposed you've checked the RUN switch on the right control pod, have you?

Check your power to the coils to be sure it's 12 VDC or more with the key ON. It's the red wire.....

[Fewski]

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

I don't supposed you've checked the RUN switch on the right control pod, have you?

Check your power to the coils to be sure it's 12 VDC or more with the key ON. It's the red wire.....

Thanks for the reply. The run switch is on, if it goes to "off" nothing happens when i hit the start button, has to be in the run position so figured the switch was good.
Checked the coiled, getting over 12 to both.

Thanks

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by Fewski

Thanks for the reply. The run switch is on, if it goes to "off" nothing happens when i hit the start button, has to be in the run position so figured the switch was good.
Checked the coiled, getting over 12 to both.

Thanks

@Ghostt

Sounds like it's time for your High tension wire speech and how to.

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

@Ghostt

Sounds like it's time for your High tension wire speech and how to.

Even bad plugs should do something, unless they are totally shot.

Did you renew the HT leads, and disassemble the caps?

Make sure you disassemble the caps, and clean them, and yes the caps get cruddy.

Here my write-up,

Short explanation: The inside of the hard plastic caps accumulate crud the can short out the spark. This can cause rough running or failure to start. Every time you do any work on the bike: remove them disassemble and clean them and renew the wires or at least the connections.

The long Explanation, Warning engineering information can cause Drowsiness.
The ancient cylinder design of the engine dictates that the spark emanate form the center of the combustion chamber. In order to get it there, the plugs had to be located down deep in a well between the cams. This well is a perfect place for dirt and moisture to accumulate. Then because there is no cooling water at this point the metal around the plug runs very hot. Surround this with the large amount of cool metal and you have a recipe for condensation. Now K did drill a drain hole between the fins to help (a little) but it often gets plugged up.

The moisture boils off the base of the plug and the vapor condenses on the cool plastic cap and the plug insulator. This moisture forms a easier path for the electrons to ground than jumping the gap at the plug to make a spark. Misfire.
This issue is right up there with Pilot jets as a cause of trouble.

Here's some pictures that might be helpful. I took these when I replaced the wires themselves, as it was a good time for a write-up, and the wires were OEM from 1998.


Wires are just 7mm copper core, with clear silicone jacket









IMPORTANT NOTICE: make sure to use a proper screwdriver, make sure it fits, as the parts are made of brass inside the spark plug caps

[jkv45]

So it will no longer run on Starter Fluid like it did a day ago?

[Ghostt]

Another option

Kawasaki ZX Ignition Coil Pack/ coil over plugs (CoPs) modification.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by Fewski

Clutch shouldn't matter either because of neutral.

The neutral switch goes through the clutch switch for the starter circuit. If the clutch switch has a connectivity issue, the neutral switch won't do anything.

It sounds like the starter circuit is working (you said that in the morning "nothing" happened, but you also said that you had to have the kill switch on for the starter button to do anything). If the starter button is actually doing nothing, make sure you have ground on the yellow/green wire at the junction box.

If the safety switches are an issue, the button will be totally dead as if the kill switch is off. If it tries to turn the starter at all, your safety switches are fine.

[Fewski]

I know most people don't respond to these threads once the problem has been figured out... but here I am.

After tons of going through everything, research on the net and everything in between. The weeks (probably 2 months -_-) process is over. IT'S RUNNING!

Turns out the previous owner bought the ole' aftermarket ignition switch on eBay... didn't have the 100 ohm theft detergent. Bought a OEM, hooked it up, and it started right up.

Sheesh. But hopefully anyone who else has this problem sees this and it helps.

THANK YOU ALL FOR HELP HELP.

[Ghostt]

Also a lesson in how to diagnose a problem.

If you would have said that the ignition switch wasn't OEM in your first post, we would have said check for the resistor, it's a very common problem with aftermarket switches.

Glad you figured it it out.

Now go out an ride, enjoy the fruits of your labor.

[Alex]

Glad it worked out!