Track vs. Canyon riding

[JeffM]

Did anyone find that riding the canyons / twisties has lost a bit of its luster after your first track experience?

Two weeks ago I completed my first trackday/advanced riding school and today I did my first canyon run of the year and found it to be, well, boring. Before my track experience, the canyons were all "edgy" and challenging, now they are a place where I think it is a bad idea to wick it up a little due to cars, gravel, etc.........

Am I becoming a track junkie in the making

Jeff

[kkim]

Originally Posted by JeffM

Am I becoming a track junkie in the making

yes... and that's a good thing! I wish more would take their canyon race antics to the tracks. Makes the roads safer for everyone.

[alex.s]

so i'm curious if there's a cheaper alternative to the typical $150-250ish track day+track school you always see?

edit: hmm i should have made a new topic.

[Bueller999]

I have been riding track and/or racing since 2004 and I still love me some canyons.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=75251

[Zombiphone]

I felt the same way, actually. I used to ride canyons every weekend, usually racking up a good 150, maybe 250 miles of just riding around the local mountains. But after I did my first track day, I instantly lost any and all interest in any sort of performance riding on the street.

It just feels so stupid, reckless, and cramped to me now, and it's hard to go back to canyons to get my kicks when I know how much more satisfying it is on the track. Being able to open it up and ride to the extent of my and my bike's limits without stupid mountains blocking my sight lines, extremely limited space, no reassuring run off, and or potential hazards/paint/oncoming traffic spoiled me. And having a lap timer to track every second of improvement I can muster makes it even more palpably fulfilling.

Every now and again I'll hit a canyon anyways just for the sake of riding, but when I do I tend to lean more towards speed limit and prefer really easy, pleasant cruises and exploring, opposed to tight, blind cliffs and edge of my seat type riding.

On a positive note, there's a good chance you'll live longer this way. So it's all for the best- even if riding will now end up being even MORE expensive a hobby. Welcome to the even worse addiction within the addiction

[ducducgooseit]

The OP has a very intriguing initial post. I find that canyons are rarely boring if I ride them for an appropriate reason. If someone wanted to race (and I mean truly race) in the canyons, most would consider that inappropriate. If I want to enjoy a road with many turns and some nice terrain then a canyon usually presents me with a delightful ride. Perhaps with some experience in a track day environment the OP will begin to use the canyon rides as an uplifting activity and enhance the general motoring experience for everyone (on 2,3,4, or 6 wheels). I have found that learning how to ride quickly is best done in a controlled environment like a track day (though some are pretty crazed) and gaining enjoyment from a ride can frequently be had in a lovely space such as canyons. Much of the differentiation between the two comes from my accumulated seat time as a rider...

I heard this recently, "I did 34 track days last year and I'm gonna do more this year. I don't ride on the street anymore." Perhaps that speaker didn't really want to get around on two wheels, they wanted to race. Two wheel motoring doesn't need to be boring to be safe nor does it need to be white knuckle time to be energizing. There is a very large area in between that is worth exploring and that is where I try to spend most of my time.

If a person's joy is the edge, I don't believe even track days are going to get it.

[CC Cowboy]

The only thing better than a trackday is a race day. It seems you go even faster.

[gogoKawi]

Two totally different things. Track is for honing the skills and going fast legally. Canyon riding is to be out in the world, riding with other riders, and enjoy your bike.

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by Zombiphone

I felt the same way, actually... But after I did my first track day, I instantly lost any and all interest in any sort of performance riding on the street.

Exactly. I thought I'd enjoy the canyons even more after having the track experience but, at least for the moment, it is like a switch has been flipped. Don't get me wrong, the canyons are still fun, but now the they have a different mellower vibe to them.

The track is definitely my preferred place to hang it out now.

[Xoulrath]

I won't be doing a track day until next year, unfortunately, so I can't answer the question honestly. Though I am pretty sure I will still enjoy riding my local back roads. It may feel different, but I couldn't see not enjoying it. I ride my wife's TU all the time, and it just feels different than my ZX. I imagine track days will feel like adrenaline-pumping experiences, and street rides will feel like nice, relaxing strolls. Just different.

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by JeffM

Exactly. I thought I'd enjoy the canyons even more after having the track experience but, at least for the moment, it is like a switch has been flipped. Don't get me wrong, the canyons are still fun, but now the they have a different mellower vibe to them.

The track is definitely my preferred place to hang it out now.

Jeff, if you do enough trackdays the canyon ride will be effortless. Meaning the cornering will come so second nature you can enjoy the scenery without worrying about the turns. You will be able to drop into a turn and not have to worry, " am I going to make it".

[sharky nrk]

i love the track. it is the only place for that level of riding. It doesnt mean i wont ride on the street, just not with the same goal or purpose of pushing myself or my bike.

[cuong-nutz]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

Jeff, if you do enough trackdays the canyon ride will be effortless. Meaning the cornering will come so second nature you can enjoy the scenery without worrying about the turns. You will be able to drop into a turn and not have to worry, " am I going to make it".

Could not have said it better.

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

Jeff, if you do enough trackdays the canyon ride will be effortless. Meaning the cornering will come so second nature you can enjoy the scenery without worrying about the turns. You will be able to drop into a turn and not have to worry, " am I going to make it".

Yep, I'm not at that point yet. Must do more track time.

I think the main thing that bugged me in the canyons vs. the track was that I now really notice the lack of sight lines in the mountains (That and the BMW that was crowding the centerline on a right hand sweeper ).

The track has a great advantage in that regard and can really spoil a rider.

Jeff

["A"]

In many ways, track riding is much easier IMO,

-most tracks do not have blind corners,

-no driveways on either side that may have traffic pull onto the pavement,

-less chances of wild life venturing onto the pavement,

-no traffic traveling the opposite direction.

[Jinx250]

No.

["A"]

Originally Posted by Jinx250

No.

You know of a track with traffic flow in the opposite direction?

[JeffM]

I think Bob was referencing my original question.

Did anyone find that riding the canyons / twisties has lost a bit of its luster after your first track experience?

[almost40]

Street riding is lame (but still fun) after you ride at the limit on the track. Your not alone in feeling this way.

[CC Cowboy]

Street riding is for Harleys!

[JS73]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

The only thing better than a trackday is a race day. It seems you go even faster.

Why, you would be correct, sir.

Racing > Track riding > Street.

[Jinx250]

Originally Posted by "A"

You know of a track with traffic flow in the opposite direction?

That was an answer to the original question.

Personally, after doing some track time, I find myself enjoying the canyons more, since I know exactly how much faster I could take the roads if I chose to do so. Instead, I put along at the speed limit (55 in most places) and just enjoy the freedom of being in hte wind on 2 wheels. It's kind of liberating actually.

["A"]

Originally Posted by JS73

Why, you would be correct, sir.

Racing > Track riding > Street.

Until you add up your expenses for track day/racing..

Compare how much track time you actually get vs dollar amount that you spend.. how much per minute of ride time?

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by "A"

Until you add up your expenses for track day/racing..

Compare how much track time you actually get vs dollar amount that you spend.. how much per minute of ride time?

Buy the ticket, take the ride.

The cost of extreme excitment can be steep.

["A"]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

Buy the ticket, take the ride.

The cost of extreme excitment can be steep.

Have you actually done the calculations?

[Alex]

The calculations aren't necessary, to show that cost per mile will be orders of magnitude more expensive on the track than on the road. Entry cost per day, much higher tire wear, much faster wear of other components, higher likelihood (per mile, IMO) of putting the bike on the ground, though it's safer to do so there than anywhere else.

But - a single lap on track is that much more entertaining, exciting, and ultimately rewarding than 2 or 3 miles on the road. It truly is.

I can understand when people completely transition to track-only riding. It didn't work for me, and I continue to enjoy street riding as well as the occasional trackday. I wouldn't urge anyone to avoid the latter just by doing the rote cost/per mile stat though, it won't provide a satisfying or ultimately useful answer.

[almost40]

Originally Posted by "A"

Have you actually done the calculations?

YEP, worth every penny.
Going to the track this weekend.

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by "A"

Have you actually done the calculations?

Ten years of calculations at the track (AAMRR, WERA, Championship Cup, AMA), PRICELESS!

[Zombiphone]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

Ten years of calculations at the track (AAMRR, WERA, Championship Cup, AMA), PRICELESS!

Good call. Because the actual numbers would make any sane man cry.

Good thing sanity and motorcycles do not go hand in hand

[Jinx250]

Originally Posted by "A"

Have you actually done the calculations?

There are probably people who have. But to my mind, the cost of the track day is far cheaper than the cost of riding like you would on a track, except doing it on the street, and crashing. Motorcycling overall is an expensive habit track days or no.

["A"]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

Ten years of calculations at the track (AAMRR, WERA, Championship Cup, AMA), PRICELESS!

So you've never done the calculation yourself, just take data from others and consider as truth?

Originally Posted by Jinx250

There are probably people who have. But to my mind, the cost of the track day is far cheaper than the cost of riding like you would on a track, except doing it on the street, and crashing. Motorcycling overall is an expensive habit track days or no.

Common misconception is that track riding is about riding at or beyond the street legal limits.. IMO, it has more to do with learning the performance and skill limits of yourself and your vehicle, being smooth as silk doing so. Which can be done in most controlled space that allow plenty of run-off, a large empty parking lot or office mall that has no traffic on weekends would do.
Personally, I never consider crashing as an option, if you factor that into your riding, likelihood of crash will go down.

[Xoulrath]

Originally Posted by Alex

But - a single lap on track is that much more entertaining, exciting, and ultimately rewarding than 2 or 3 miles on the road. It truly is.

I can only imagine for now. But I do know I really enjoyed the few times I wicked it up a bit on the street. Not so much to be unsafe, but considerably faster than posted speed limits. It really is exhilarating and I can't wait for the track. I don't normally like time to pass too quickly; I like to smell the roses, so to speak. But I can't wait for next summer so I can jump in head first.

Originally Posted by Alex

I can understand when people completely transition to track-only riding. It didn't work for me, and I continue to enjoy street riding as well as the occasional trackday. I wouldn't urge anyone to avoid the latter just by doing the rote cost/per mile stat though, it won't provide a satisfying or ultimately useful answer.

I doubt it would work for me. I am sitting here not riding because I am saving money. Ugh, not fun. I work in education, and I have the next seven or eight weeks off. I would ride everyday if I could. But that gets seriously expensive too!

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by "A"

So you've never done the calculation yourself, just take data from others and consider as truth?



Common misconception is that track riding is about riding at or beyond the street legal limits.. IMO, it has more to do with learning the performance and skill limits of yourself and your vehicle, being smooth as silk doing so. Which can be done in most controlled space that allow plenty of run-off, a large empty parking lot or office mall that has no traffic on weekends would do.
Personally, I never consider crashing as an option, if you factor that into your riding, likelihood of crash will go down.

You just get weirder and weirder!

["A"]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

You just get weirder and weirder!

I don't like to be normal.

My question to you was a simple question that could be answered by yes or no.. yet you keep avoiding to answer.

I've done my calculations, I find that track days and race days are not worthwhile for the amount of time that one actually is riding on the track is far less practical than practicing in a controlled environment.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by "A"

Common misconception is that track riding is about riding at or beyond the street legal limits...

Actually, that's not a misconception at all. Track days in fact do let you take your bike and yourself beyond what would be appropriate on the street. Speed is the most obvious measurement, but lean angle, braking, accelerating, and everything else can be ramped up when you're in a controlled environment. Those same conditions cannot be duplicated anywhere else, no matter how deserted a parking lot or lonely road happens to be. If you meant that trackdays aren't only for scaring yourself silly, and they are instead for improving your riding greatly while having a ball, then I'd agree.

Originally Posted by "A"

My question to you was a simple question that could be answered by yes or no.. yet you keep avoiding to answer.

I've done my calculations, I find that track days and race days are not worthwhile for the amount of time that one actually is riding on the track is far less practical than practicing in a controlled environment.

He's not avoiding it, it's a facile question. The answer doesn't give any guidance on what is "right" for anybody. It's ultimately a value judgement on what people find entertaining and fun. Thinking that can be boiled down to a cost per mile, or cost per minute metric to identify fun is by its nature an individual decision. And the end result is plain to see, anyway. If people value it, they will spend more time on the track. If people don't, they will spend less. If a motorcyclist has never been to a trackday, yet prematurely decides it's not for them because they are afraid they wouldn't enjoy it enough to justify the costs, they are only punishing themselves.

[Xoulrath]

Originally Posted by "A"

I've done my calculations, I find that track days and race days are not worthwhile for the amount of time that one actually is riding on the track is far less practical than practicing in a controlled environment.

Your reasoning would be correct, assuming one wanted to practice at safe parking lot speeds. If the point is to practice, or even simply ride, at higher speeds, then a track is the safest place you can get regardless of the cost. Even if you never plan to go over 100 mph, you can do so more safely on the track. You can't do 100 in a parking lot, unless you have access to some type of landing strip or such. Even then, you aren't doing anything but going straight.

I think for the people who wish to spend their money on track days and racing, it is worth it to them, and that is all that matters. I mean let's face facts. We really only need food, water, shelter, and clothing. Anything else is excess.

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by "A"

Until you add up your expenses for track day/racing..

Compare how much track time you actually get vs dollar amount that you spend.. how much per minute of ride time?

You miss the point of being on a track. It's isn't price per minute of ride time (any trained monkey can ride in a controlled space that allow plenty of run-off, a large empty parking lot or office mall that has no traffic on weekends for much less than on a track), it's the price you pay for the adrenaline rush. It is a thrill you can't appreciate unless you have experienced it.

Besides, if you add in sponorship and prize money, it can be very rewarding, if not profitable.

So a simple yes or no doesn't address the many variables involved.

["A"]

Originally Posted by Alex

Actually, that's not a misconception at all. Track days in fact do let you take your bike and yourself beyond what would be appropriate on the street. Speed is the most obvious measurement, but lean angle, braking, accelerating, and everything else can be ramped up when you're in a controlled environment. Those same conditions cannot be duplicated anywhere else, no matter how deserted a parking lot or lonely road happens to be. If you meant that trackdays aren't only for scaring yourself silly, and they are instead for improving your riding greatly while having a ball, then I'd agree.

Seems to me you've not seen a 'large' enough parking lot.

Originally Posted by Xoulrath

Your reasoning would be correct, assuming one wanted to practice at safe parking lot speeds. If the point is to practice, or even simply ride, at higher speeds, then a track is the safest place you can get regardless of the cost. Even if you never plan to go over 100 mph, you can do so more safely on the track. You can't do 100 in a parking lot, unless you have access to some type of landing strip or such. Even then, you aren't doing anything but going straight.

I did not limit the practice riding in empty parking lots as "parking-lot-speed-only', higher speed can easily be achieved if you have the skills and the right vehicle.

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

You miss the point of being on a track. It's isn't price per minute of ride time (any trained monkey can ride in a controlled space that allow plenty of run-off, a large empty parking lot or office mall that has no traffic on weekends for much less than on a track), it's the price you pay for the adrenaline rush. It is a thrill you can't appreciate unless you have experienced it.

That's a piss poor example, I'd like to see you train a money ride a motorcycle at any speed, you make it sound so easy.

I've experience more track time than most and I find the experience is over-rated. People who can afford it more than likely don't want to make their money seem wasted for impractical activity as such.

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

Besides, if you add in sponorship and prise money, it can be very rewarding, if not profitable.

So a simple yes or no doesn't address the many variables involved.

So, how much sponsorship and prize money have you generated vs your own money output to ride/race on the track?

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by "A"

I'd like to see you train a money ride a motorcycle at any speed, you make it sound so easy.

Well, it can be done

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Domagoj]

Originally Posted by JeffM

Well, it can be done

Amazing

Parking lots are a great place to practice. But, finding a deserted, huge, high quality asphalt, no bumps, no dirt, no painted lines parking lot, is well... difficult? At least here it is. My country is too small I have not found one yet that fulfills 3/6 conditions. If I could find one, I am sure I would spend a lot of my time there.
Roads can be fun, but conditions are as hard to satisfy as they are for the parking lot. Single lane, tourist season, a bloody caravan every 200 meters. Agitated people, dirt on the road, blocked view, a nice cliff on the side to drop from...

Here is how I see it:

track:
entry fee: ~$50 per day (probably a single thing that is cheaper here )
tire wear: ~ x10
gasoline: ~ x1,5
kilometers spent having fun: 90%
probability of an accident: ~ 0,3% per km (haven't crashed yet, this is an assumption)
professional medical aid: ~ within a minute

road:
entry fee: ~ $300 per year
tire wear: ~ x1
gasoline: ~ x1
kilometers spent having fun: ~ 10%
probability of an accident : ~ 0,01 % per km (personal statistic)
professional medical aid; ~ within 10-60 minutes, assuming that alarm is raised the moment I crash