Loud clacking sound coming out of my engine when I'm idle.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by alex.s

uh maybe @Motofool remembers the service spec. you measure the distance between 20 axles in the chain. its something like 125mm-127mm. over it and the chain is done.

Yes, according to the manual, a 20-link length under tension should measure between 127.0 and 127.4 mm in a new chain.
The service limit is 128.9 mm.

Never rotate the engine clockwise (facing the alternator) or with the CCT out.

The CCT should be lubricated and retracted and hold by the side screw and then liberated down into the pit.

I agree with Alex; maybe the engine over-heated from air pockets next to the cylinders and chambers.

In that case, some of the rings may break, producing clicking noises.

Once you have the spark plugs out, a compression test could rule that possibility out.

[alex.s]

compression test! i always forget about that one!!

[Monkeytofu]

Well the spark plugs looked good when we pulled them out. Do you guys have a link to how to do a compression test?


Also, as the day got longer and the more tired I got, I overlooked the correct torque on the bolts that hold in the cover and ended up breaking one. Any ideas on how to remove it? It's almost impossible to get a drill in there and we're thinking of welling another bolt to the stub inside to remove it.

Also where would I find this on the parts diagram? Or is this by any chance a conventional bolt I could find at a bolt store?

[alex.s]

drop the engine

[Motofool]

Sorry about it; take a break until tomorrow.
Too many things to check can be overwhelming and frustrating.

http://www.dansmc.com/compression_test.htm

Yes, you will need to remove the three bolts that hold the engine and separate it from the frame in order to have room to work.

This tool should help:
http://www.harborfreight.com/12-piec...set-40349.html

I don't think that you can replace that bolt with a generic one because the step is for avoiding crushing the cover besides sealing against the neoprene washer.

[Monkeytofu]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Sorry about it; take a break until tomorrow.
Too many things to check can be overwhelming and frustrating.

http://www.dansmc.com/compression_test.htm

Yes, you will need to remove the three bolts that hold the engine and separate it from the frame in order to have room to work.

This tool should help:
http://www.harborfreight.com/12-piec...set-40349.html

I don't think that you can replace that bolt with a generic one because the step is for avoiding crushing the cover besides sealing against the neoprene washer.

Thanks for the test link!

http://forums.ninja250.org/viewtopic...124dd66#811662

Looks like it it possible, although the person who tried it didn't really ever talk about it again. That may be a good or a bad thing.

I just can't for the life of me find it on a diagram!

Edit: I bought that kit today in hopes of it helping me, we couldn't get enough force down on to the bolt itself with a flex connector. I might try doing it by hand, possible the welding trick, and if all else fails the engine is coming out.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Monkeytofu

Thanks for the test link!

I just can't for the life of me find it on a diagram!

You are welcome!

The bolt is part #92153 in the cylinder head cover schematic.

Take a break; things look less terrible in daylight.

[Monkeytofu]

Originally Posted by Motofool

You are welcome!

The bolt is part #92153 in the cylinder head cover schematic.

Take a break; things look less terrible in daylight.

Yeah, as much as my mind wants to go and fiddle with the stub left in there I'm holding off. Hopefully tomorrow goes well, we remove it, and I can get the bike up and running.

Also to anyone who may know: when my friend went and used my pan he dumped his oil into my pan. We were putting the remaining oil into containers so we can get dispose of them and we found a silver shaving about half an inch long and some black strips that may have been rubber.

I'm thinking it's his bike because when we looked through my oil we didn't see any of those and his ('93 GSX-750) had been treated like grab by the previous owner who then let it sit for a year. We could have missed something on my bike and I'm wondering what kind of gasket inside the engine would fall into the oil?

[n4mwd]

Check the metal flakes to see if they are steel or aluminum with a magnet. Steel = panick, aluminum = relax.
Its normal to find a few aluminum shavings in the oil screen.

A rock is weird. Make sure the filter is installed correctly. It goes in like this:
Bolt with little o-ring -> cover w/big o-ring -> spring -> washer -> filter -> metal cap. The spring pushes the filter up into the engine to seal the connection. If the spring is put on top, the filter wont filter anything and the engine will eventually be destroyed from the debris in the oil.

Before you get too carried away with repairs, make sure you test the clutch basket to see if the noise is coming from there. Assuming you haven't done it already, put a light load on it at idle while holding the front brake to see if the noise goes away.

I didn't hear anything that unusual in the video. BTW, that looked like an awesome paint job.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Check the metal flakes to see if they are steel or aluminum with a magnet.

that, sir, is a quality suggestion.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by alex.s

that, sir, is a quality suggestion.

I have unfortunate experience in that department.

[Monkeytofu]

They aren't steel thankfully.

[Monkeytofu]

So out of desperation we went wild with trying to find an appropriate extension. We went to the stores like 10 times today and then I realized, in a epiphany: Why don't we just remove the damn ****ing thing and screw it out. So we did and it worked.

We've messed up some of the upper threading, but nothing that would break the seal.

but...



These marks on the underside of the cam shaft bracket don't look good. My friend said it might be a bent cam shaft, but I haven't had any issues until today. My cam chain is tight all over except for one spot as well.

[Monkeytofu]

Here is the top of the bracket. We've messed up some of the thread on the top but the rest of threading is in great condition. Should I order a replacement or will this survive? I'm not sure if this is a big stress point or just merely holds in the cover.

[alex.s]

im paranoid about that sort of thing, i would just replace it. but if you clean it up enough its probably fine. the scratches look troubling but not horrifying. what does the cam side look like

[Monkeytofu]

Originally Posted by alex.s

im paranoid about that sort of thing, i would just replace it. but if you clean it up enough its probably fine. the scratches look troubling but not horrifying. what does the cam side look like

Yes, I'll be ordering one soon to replace it. Just need something to hold me up so I get around town since this is my commuter.

What do you mean the cam side? This is the bracket on the cam side. I haven't able to check it. I'm currently looking for the correct torque for this bracket if you happen to know that.


Could a loose valve have caused the lobes to at one point scrape against this bracket? It looks like someone was in here before I was so my mechanic probably checked them out and adjusted them when I first got the bike and he cleaned it out.

Edit: I've looked at some forums and it seems your cam shaft either breaks or it's straight because they are made of cast iron in cars. No idea if that's the case in the 250 though.

[FrugalNinja250]

Just clean up the burrs, that's not a critical application. All it does is hold the valve cover in place. Also, you most likely can't just replace a cam cap because they're typically align-bored upon assembly, meaning that the caps on each engine are machine-matched to that particular engine.

[alex.s]

those cam cage bolts on the newgen are 14ft/lbs but i honestly have no clue about the pregen torque specs. its probably different. by "cam side" i mean the part of the cam that touches that bearing bracket. the cam lobes dont ever touch that part. they are to the side of that part.

[Monkeytofu]

Originally Posted by alex.s

those cam cage bolts on the newgen are 14ft/lbs but i honestly have no clue about the pregen torque specs. its probably different. by "cam side" i mean the part of the cam that touches that bearing bracket. the cam lobes dont ever touch that part. they are to the side of that part.

It has matching score marks. They're not deep, it seems to be only surface marks.

Found the torque settings, they're very strange.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Monkeytofu

Here is the top of the bracket. We've messed up some of the thread on the top but the rest of threading is in great condition. Should I order a replacement or will this survive? I'm not sure if this is a big stress point or just merely holds in the cover.

You can restore the threads to workable condition using this technique...

Use a tap to debur and clean the threads, then use a non-residual contact cleaner to get the grease out, then coat the bolt with a light oil (important), mix up and poke jb-weld into the hole, screw in the greased bolt. Wait 5 minutes (for the 5 min set kind) and the bolt will unscrew and leave the threads behind because jb-weld wont stick to oil.

Its probably best to get the new part, but that will take a week to come in. This will get you back on the road sooner.

EDIT: Worst case, get one of these things...

[Monkeytofu]

Seems the clacking noise is only happing between 3 RPM and 1 RPM now. We put in new oil and the oil got super murky. We're taking some of it out to give it a look, this is weird.

[alex.s]

did you measure the cam chain

[Monkeytofu]

Originally Posted by alex.s

did you measure the cam chain

No, but I should. We closed it up for now to see if the valve adjustment did it. I may take it to my mechanic (ugh) and see what he thinks it is. I put some sea foam into the tank and the oil and the clacking went down to about 2.5k rpm and down.



Edit: What's the best way to measure it. Could I mark some part of the chain with an engine safe marker?

[Monkeytofu]

Watching other videos on youtube, it looks like it's probably the cam chain... I noticed some lines on the bottom of the chain guard but nothing outrageous when I took it off.

/sigh

[n4mwd]

Did you test the clutch basket?

[Monkeytofu]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Did you test the clutch basket?

No I did not.

I did however JUST remove the CCT clean it off, and cover it in a bit of new oil then I dropped it in and... no more clacking :O My bike is up and running better than ever thanks to this valve adjustment.

Edit: I have a feeling this is a sign of the cam chain starting to get too loose, but it'll do for now.

[alex.s]

not sure if you know but the CCT is non return type, if you dont retract it before putting it back in, it puts too much pressure on the chain and stretches it. that will lead to even louder noise. you should measure the cam chain if you can

[Monkeytofu]

Originally Posted by alex.s

not sure if you know but the CCT is non return type, if you dont retract it before putting it back in, it puts too much pressure on the chain and stretches it. that will lead to even louder noise. you should measure the cam chain if you can

Do you mean using the screw to hold it in while you put it back into place?
If so I've done that every time I've taken it out.

I'll be riding it as is for now as all the strange sounds have disappeared. Should anything pop up I'll be going in and measuring that thing.

Thank you all for your help and advice on this one. I'll be keeping this thread in mind should I have to reopen it and see what's wrong. I think this was a good first step at maintaining my bike (sans the 2 day broken bolt fiasco) on my own.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Monkeytofu

No I did not.

I did however JUST remove the CCT clean it off, and cover it in a bit of new oil then I dropped it in and... no more clacking :O My bike is up and running better than ever thanks to this valve adjustment.

Edit: I have a feeling this is a sign of the cam chain starting to get too loose, but it'll do for now.

Considering about 95% of the time a noise like you describe is the clutch basket, it should have been the first thing you tested.

Valves get tighter not looser over time. So the noise was not the valves.

To measure the chain length you have to remove it. That means removing the cams and clutch basket. The clutch cover requires a new gasket.

The cam tensioner is in an oil bath so lubricating it wont really do anything.

Unless your bike has over 30K miles, the cam chain is probably fine.

[davenay67]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

The cam tensioner is in an oil bath so lubricating it wont really do anything.

I do not believe this is a true statement. The CCT sits high, on the top of the crankcase, way above the oil level. I've seen mine (and others) come out dry when removed.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by davenay67

I do not believe this is a true statement. The CCT sits high, on the top of the crankcase, way above the oil level. I've seen mine (and others) come out dry when removed.

There is no forced oil lubrication of the CCT, but there is plenty of splash lubrication coming from all different angles. It is in close proximity to the crankshaft and cam chain which do get lubricated and sling oil. The upper portion of the CCT might not get as much, but the parts that count do.

If anyone is worried about their cam chain, personally, I would check it by doing a tension test on it between the two cam sprockets (with the CCT removed).

Again, unless his cam chain has hopped a tooth and damaged the engine (due to an improper valve adjustment), or is over 30K miles, or suffered some other abuse, its very unlikely that its bad.

[Monkeytofu]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Considering about 95% of the time a noise like you describe is the clutch basket, it should have been the first thing you tested.

Yeah, these past two days have been my best in terms of looking at the obvious...

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Valves get tighter not looser over time. So the noise was not the valves.

Yes. Mine were extremely tight so they were due for a adjustment anyways.

Originally Posted by n4mwd

The cam tensioner is in an oil bath so lubricating it wont really do anything.

Yeah, I just cleaned off of old oil and then put a little new oil on the surfaces just to make sure.


New issue: I let some oil out yesterday to see if any residue or gunk had come into the oil (before I put the seafoam I mentioned earlier) into a clean oil pan and it seems like there's this gunky white residue. Looking online it looks like it may be an issue with coolant getting into the oil, but I had forgotten to tighten the tube going over the cover yesterday so some might have dripped in when I had my pan there.

Is there any signs/sounds I should look for to know if there is a broken head gasket or coolant entering in the oil? my coolant level hasn't gone down at all so I'm assuming it's not that right now.

[alex.s]

valves get tighter and looser, it depends on how the engine is run and mainly how hot the valves get

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Monkeytofu

Is there any signs/sounds I should look for to know if there is a broken head gasket or coolant entering in the oil? my coolant level hasn't gone down at all so I'm assuming it's not that right now.

smoke billowing out of your exhaust

head gaskets blow from the compression in the cylinder, so the damage is usually from the cylinder into nearly ports like the water ports or oil lines

[Racer x]

The upper bearing cap is not available seperarly from the head. From the looks of the cam bearing surface. The engine has had an oil related failure and is no good.

[Monkeytofu]

Originally Posted by alex.s

smoke billowing out of your exhaust

head gaskets blow from the compression in the cylinder, so the damage is usually from the cylinder into nearly ports like the water ports or oil lines

Alright, I haven't seen any of that. Probably just some of the leaking into the pan from yesterday then.

[Kevin2109]

Originally Posted by Monkeytofu

Alright, I haven't seen any of that. Probably just some of the leaking into the pan from yesterday then.

Your engine is perfectly fine, you should put it all back together and to the @Shank break in and WOT for 20 min

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Kevin2109

Your engine is perfectly fine, you should put it all back together and to the @Shank break in and WOT for 20 min

[n4mwd]

You can try it as an experiment, but I don't think that antifreeze turns into milky slim when merely mixed with oil. I think both have to be hot. I may be wrong on that. Best to experiment before assuming it just dripped in externally.

You can also look in your radiator to see if there is any slime in there. If there is, its confirmed, but the lack of it doesn't dismiss it since the coolant is usually under a higher pressure than the oil.

Anyhow, if coolant is getting into your cylinders, they can lock up from rust. The inadequate lubrication can cause premature bearing failure. But that isn't a guarantee that you have it.

Coolant enters the rear of the cylinder, passes through the head gasket, into the head and out through the pipe at the top. Like others have already said, the head gasket is the most likely culprit. I don't know if the cylinder gasket holds back any coolant or not.

I've heard of people putting seafoam in their oil and I have to say that I don't recommend it. Unless kawasaki says its OK or the seafoam people say they will buy me a new engine if it messes it up, it doesn't go in my crankcase. The same is true of walmart and other cheapie oils.

Best thing to do right now is to change the oil, run it for a few days and drain it out and look again. You should also inspect the filter during the change (just to see what is in the filter chamber), but you don't have to install a new one. If you see more slime, its probably time for a new head gasket.

[n4mwd]

Here's a quick video of the CCT if anybody is curious:

Link to original page on YouTube.