Chevy VOLT

[almost40]

I am by no means the kinda guy that would buy a Toyota Prius for transportation. Nor am I an envirostatist wackadoo.
Some how, some way, I find myself interested in a Chevy Volt after reading the 100 mph 127 MPG article in Car and Driver. Crazy stuff happens while your waiting to get a haircut.
Am I Alone Here??

[Snake]

I too like the idea of a cage that gets as good as or better MPG than my bike. As the technology increases on these cars more and more people will be leaning in that direction.

+1 here.

[adouglas]

I need to see the next gen version before I'll jump. Look at any new technology. It always takes two or three iterations before it gets really compelling.

Kindle 1 - groundbreaking. Clunky.
Kindle 2 - better but not great.
Kindle 3 - 50 percent better contrast, better usability, lighter, thinner, better battery life, cheaper… now I want one.

Same with iPods, laptops, digital cameras, cell phones… you name it. First-gen products are for those who just have to own the latest thing. They always have issues of some sort, no matter how well thought-out they might seem to be. Just a few years of experience makes a world of difference.

Remember the movie Wall Street, with Gordon Gecko walking down the beach holding a cell phone the size of a WWII walkie-talkie? A few years later we had the first flip phone… something you could actually stick in your pocket. A few years after that they were giving the things away, and the battery life had gone up by orders of magnitude.

The Volt is still too expensive, even with subsidies. Sure you'll save on fuel, but do the math… even with gas at $5+ a gallon you'll never come anywhere close to recouping your investment. So why bother?

What's the total carbon footprint of the thing? Pollution is about much more than what comes out of the tailpipe.

What happens when the battery pack wears out? How much does that thing cost?

I don't know about you, but based on a lifetime of experience I'm not exactly confident in the competence of the average auto mechanic. This thing is bleeding edge… do you really think that Bud down at the local Chevy dealer is going to be able to fix it correctly?

Has it occurred to anyone that if you're burning little or no fuel, you're going to wind up with very old gas in your tank? My wife is the perfect target for this car… she works five miles from home and doesn't drive much. She could easily wind up not burning any gasoline at all for weeks at a time.

So thumbs up to GM for pushing the envelope. I'm all for that. But color me skeptical for now. I'll let somebody else suffer the pain of early adoption.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Has it occurred to anyone that if you're burning little or no fuel, you're going to wind up with very old gas in your tank?

Yup, the Volt engineers. Even if the car never gets out of the standard electric-only use case, if it realizes the fuel has been sitting for quite awhile it will run the engine for awhile to deal with this issue. A modern fuel-injected car is never going to have the type of issues we do with tiny carbed bikes getting their pilot jets clogged up in a month, so as long as the gas rotates once or twice a year all will likely still be well.

[almost40]

Originally Posted by adouglas

The Volt is still too expensive, even with subsidies. Sure you'll save on fuel, but do the math… even with gas at $5+ a gallon you'll never come anywhere close to recouping your investment. So why bother?

---------------If your already buying a new car?? Might very well be worth it.

What's the total carbon footprint of the thing? Pollution is about much more than what comes out of the tailpipe.


----------------Not a concern.

What happens when the battery pack wears out? How much does that thing cost?


---------------This doesnt stop your avg liberal or envirowacko from buying a prius. Its a statement car for most. Just as an SUV or 4x4 truck or a Vette or a Porsche.

I don't know about you, but based on a lifetime of experience I'm not exactly confident in the competence of the average auto mechanic. This thing is bleeding edge… do you really think that Bud down at the local Chevy dealer is going to be able to fix it correctly?


--------------- Doesnt seem to be that big of a deal. Toyota GM Ford Nissan they all offer some form of partial battery powered vehicle now.

Has it occurred to anyone that if you're burning little or no fuel, you're going to wind up with very old gas in your tank? My wife is the perfect target for this car… she works five miles from home and doesn't drive much. She could easily wind up not burning any gasoline at all for weeks at a time.

---------------Has been thought of. The volt will keep track and every 6 weeks (if memory serves) will run the motor just to keep eveything in good working condition.

So thumbs up to GM for pushing the envelope. I'm all for that. But color me skeptical for now. I'll let somebody else suffer the pain of early adoption.

I just liked what I read
Its all battery powered all the time. The engine runs a generator and is not connected to the drive wheels
It will run 80 for 20 miles on the highway in traffic, all battery.
Full charge in 10 hours off standard outlet 4 hours off 220
It can be programed to pull electricity in the wee hours of the morning when rates are lowest.
Is fairly quick will run 100mph and isnt ugly as hell

[Alex]

Originally Posted by almost40

This doesnt stop your avg liberal or envirowacko from buying a prius.

Can we even have a car thread without a political rant? Please?

[almost40]

Originally Posted by Alex

Can we even have a car thread without a political rant? Please?

Will it make you feel better if I label myself?

Im the gun owning, bible thumping, outdoorsman who clings to his guns and religion and hates the enviroment.

So what. Im still interested in this car

The point was that if you believe in the purpose or cause behind the concept, factors like the above listed battery replacement etc. dont matter.
I didnt mean to offend.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by almost40

I just liked what I read
Its all battery powered all the time. The engine runs a generator and is not connected to the drive wheels
It will run 80 for 20 miles on the highway in traffic, all battery.
Full charge in 10 hours off standard outlet 4 hours off 220
It can be programed to pull electricity in the wee hours of the morning when rates are lowest.
Is fairly quick will run 100mph and isnt ugly as hell

Actually, they lied so that they could secure new patents on the drive-train. The gas engine actually is connected to the wheels.

http://www.dailytech.com/GMs+Chevy+V...ticle19852.htm

Some think it's a "bait and switch," but they had good reason and it is still something special.

[wild-bill]

I'm wondering if the car will be affordable. If the price is too high for many of us, that means it will be of no use to many of us.

[Alex]

$41k or so before rebate, $7500 rebate expected for most folks in most states, so $33k - $35K is the likely selling price. Seems like alot, but the average new car sold in the US last year was around $26K, so it's not huge amounts away from that median.

[GeneJunkie]

Why do they have to make these so-called "eco-friendly" cars so danged ugly?

I'm still waiting for my Honda FCX Clarity, I will risk blowing up with hydrogen powered fuel cells before driving an electric or hybrid car.

edit I was thinking of the Nissan Leaf *shudder* The Volt isn't as bad as I remembered.

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by Alex

Can we even have a car thread without a political rant? Please?

Going to be difficult to do, there is a fringe element that has identified any kind of new technology that's not pure HC fuel powered as the symbol of all that they perceive is wrong with the country, the world, and the universe. Unfortunately, they scream the loudest so attract much attention (hence their reasons for always screaming the loudest).

I like the Volt, wish I could afford one. I liked the EV-1 better, it had more range on the then new NiMH batteries and would have suited my needs perfectly. In the end, I'll probably wind up getting a high-mileage Prius and converting it to all EV. It'll take a while, they hold their value better than anything but an exotic/collectible.

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by wild-bill

I'm wondering if the car will be affordable. If the price is too high for many of us, that means it will be of no use to many of us.

It'll be as affordable as any other car in its price range, and plenty of cars sell for far more than 40k.

I couldn't afford the first CD players that came out at $800 a pop in 1980's dollars (double that in today's dollars) but luckily enough early adopters bought them to bring down prices. Hopefully that will happen with the EV cars as well.

[Sailariel]

I think that the Volt and the Leaf are certainly a step in the right direction. One has to do some numbers crunching to get the real picture. Driving 10,000miles on pure electricity will use about 2500 Kilowatt Hours--20% more than the average annual consumption of a US home. At an average rate of 11 cents per kilowatt hour, that amounts to $275.00 for a year of fuel, which would be about equivalent to 70 cents per gallon of gasoline. You also need to consider where and how this vehicle would be used. A pure electric car would make little sense in states like Maine, Montana, Northern Idaho, South Dakota--you get the drift. For those states a Prius would make more sense. We have Prius cars up the wazoo here in Maine. Electric cars would do better in Florida and Southern climes . Batteries perform better in warm weather. I know that my daughter is seriously considering a Tesla. She lives in California, which is warm. Son, also lives in CA and drives a Vette. I think she would like to be environmentally savvy and still blow his doors in. We shall see. It's all very new, and if we can keep politics out, progress will be made for sure.

[wild-bill]

Originally Posted by FrugalNinja250

It'll be as affordable as any other car in its price range, and plenty of cars sell for far more than 40k.

40k for a Volt? That's outrageous. Last year I bought an '06 Grand Marquis for $12,500. I guess I'm not rich enough to buy a car like that. Gonna have to keep driving the gas guzzler 'cause I can afford that one But I'd rather have it that way anyway.

[Sailariel]

Bill, How about $200,000 for a Tesla--It's all relative.

[Alex]

Teslas list at $109K, so I hope that doesn't mean they have $91K floormats...

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by wild-bill

40k for a Volt? That's outrageous. Last year I bought an '06 Grand Marquis for $12,500. I guess I'm not rich enough to buy a car like that. Gonna have to keep driving the gas guzzler 'cause I can afford that one But I'd rather have it that way anyway.

I paid $500 for my last car. Paying $12,500 for a car is just nuts! Hell, the most I ever paid for anything was when I put 20% down on my house so I wouldn't have to pay PMI. The depreciation hit on new cars of any kind is just too high. Buying something for $12,500 just to watch half that value drift away in the wind in two or three years is like investing in burritos...well, you get the idea.

Like he said, it's all relative. There's a market for quality EV vehicles at almost any price. The EV-1s were projected to cost over $40K in early 1990 dollars, close to $60K in today's dollars, and GM could have sold every single one they had made at that price. If the Volt fails it will be because of political stigmatization and the fact that the economy from 2001 to 2008 sustained the biggest amount of damage it's ever seen since the Great Depression, and in some ways worse.

[Sailariel]

Originally Posted by Alex

Teslas list at $109K, so I hope that doesn't mean they have $91K floormats...

$109K is still a lot. I had the erroneous impression that it was 200K--in the same price range as Lamborghini and the MacLeran.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by Sailariel

$109K is still a lot. I had the erroneous impression that it was 200K--in the same price range as Lamborghini and the MacLeran.

Even if you had $150,000, you can't just waltz right in and buy one. IIRC, just like the Smart cars many years ago, people sell their spots in the waiting lists for more than MSRP, so you'd be paying a lot more to someone with it in-hand. They've already announced the end of Tesla Roadster production despite not having a replacement model lined up yet. Any spot on the waiting list is only going to go UP. To just go buy one, you probably would have to spend $200K. Not to mention, it's financed through BoA and you have to pay about $30K up-front. Even if you did get the MSRP, it's about $144,000 after their only financing option (tax + 20K up front + 5% yearly on 5 year remainder).

[tjkamper]

Well it is yet time for another analysis of the cost effectiveness of cages by your Friendly Neighborhood Economist.

In this episode we will take a look at the Chevy VOLT.

ASSUMPTIONS:
Being as the EPA does not have any estimates out for the VOLT, I am forced to only use the information provided on Chevy.com. Chevy estimates the daily cost of charging the Volt at $1.50 based on $0.12 per Kilowatt hour. I also am assuming that is a full charge (Which Chevrolet does not confirm on their website).

Chevy claims 25 – 50 miles per charge so I will use the mean for my mileage calculations; (i.e. 37.5).

Chevy does not have a car that is a perfect comparison to the VOLT so I have made the assumption that the Malibu and the VOLT are comparable vehicles. (Truth is the Malibu offers an additional 20 horsepower, but we will side in favor of the VOLT).

I also will assume only City Driving to give the VOLT and added edge over the Malibu.

I am assuming the price of gas to be $4 per gallon, which is higher than the current national average.

I am also only assuming the VOLT to be using solely battery power, and not the gas generator as that would result in higher costs of operating the VOLT (Once again, giving the VOLT every advantage I can).

All figures are rounded to the fourth decimal place.

EQUATION:

Malibu MSRP + [Days * {(37.5 miles / Malibu City MPG) * Price of Gas}] = VOLT MSRP + [Days * $1.50]

CALCULATIONS:

$21,975 + [ Days * {(37.5 miles / 22 MPG) * $4} = $40,280 + [ Days * $1.50]

$21,975 + [ Days * {1.7045 * $4} = $40,280 + [ Days * $1.50]

$21,975 + [ Days * $6.8180] = $40,280 + [ Days * $1.50]

Days * $5.3180 = $18,305

Days = 3442.0830

Days * Miles Per Day (37.5) = 129,078.1 Miles

RESULTS:

You would have own and drive the VOLT every day for over nine years before you would realize any fuel savings. This would be the equivalent of 129,078 Miles.

ENJOY

[FrugalNinja250]

Originally Posted by tjkamper

Well it is yet time for another analysis of the cost effectiveness of cages by your Friendly Neighborhood Economist.

In this episode we will take a look at the Chevy VOLT.

ASSUMPTIONS:
Being as the EPA does not have any estimates out for the VOLT, I am forced to only use the information provided on Chevy.com. Chevy estimates the daily cost of charging the Volt at $1.50 based on $0.12 per Kilowatt hour. I also am assuming that is a full charge (Which Chevrolet does not confirm on their website).

Chevy claims 25 – 50 miles per charge so I will use the mean for my mileage calculations; (i.e. 37.5).

Chevy does not have a car that is a perfect comparison to the VOLT so I have made the assumption that the Malibu and the VOLT are comparable vehicles. (Truth is the Malibu offers an additional 20 horsepower, but we will side in favor of the VOLT).

I also will assume only City Driving to give the VOLT and added edge over the Malibu.

I am assuming the price of gas to be $4 per gallon, which is higher than the current national average.

I am also only assuming the VOLT to be using solely battery power, and not the gas generator as that would result in higher costs of operating the VOLT (Once again, giving the VOLT every advantage I can).

All figures are rounded to the fourth decimal place.

EQUATION:

Malibu MSRP + [Days * {(37.5 miles / Malibu City MPG) * Price of Gas}] = VOLT MSRP + [Days * $1.50]

CALCULATIONS:

$21,975 + [ Days * {(37.5 miles / 22 MPG) * $4} = $40,280 + [ Days * $1.50]

$21,975 + [ Days * {1.7045 * $4} = $40,280 + [ Days * $1.50]

$21,975 + [ Days * $6.8180] = $40,280 + [ Days * $1.50]

Days * $5.3180 = $18,305

Days = 3442.0830

Days * Miles Per Day (37.5) = 129,078.1 Miles

RESULTS:

You would have own and drive the VOLT every day for over nine years before you would realize any fuel savings. This would be the equivalent of 129,078 Miles.

ENJOY

The only minor flaw I see in your technically accurate analysis is the assumption that the single and only reason that people would buy a Volt is for fuel savings and absolutely no other reason. That's rather simplistic, which makes the above argument against buying a Volt (which is all it really is, just wrapped in a plausible set of calculations) all that more meaningless. If lifetime purchase and operating costs were the only factor people used to choose what car to buy then nobody would spend $455,000 for a Lamborghini Murcielago, or for that matter $42,400 on a Chevy Tahoe, or even $27K on a Malibu.

People buy cars all the time for all sorts of different reasons. Oh yeah, just to head off your counterargument about the Volt supposedly being all about the gas mileage, IMHO GM is making a mistake trying to market on that. If they really wanted to market a high mileage vehicle they'd just bring back the Geo Metro or even just import some of their eurodiesel compacts. The real buyers for the Volt will be people with disposable income who want to blow rasberries at the oil companies and foreign oil suppliers that have had this country by the gonads for fourty years now. They realize that on a strictly financial basis it makes no sense to buy a Volt; that's not why they're buying one.

What it basically boils down to is that as a manufacturer you need to have on offer something people want, or people will buy from someone who has. The Prius is a perfect example. When it first came out I saw the same kind of analysis as above put forth as an argument as to why nobody should buy one. While Toyota was making and selling them GM and Ford focused on making and selling high profit SUVs and didn't make any long-sighted efforts to develop something to compete with it. That worked out well for them, didn't it? It's a repeat of the same kinds of short-sighted screwed up thinking that they've been doing since the 1950's. How many times to we have to get our clocks cleaned before we finally get it?

I see the Volt as a real opening salvo in the future EV wars. Either we make something people want or someone else will. Again. Lead or follow, the choice is pretty clear to me. IMHO.

ENJOY!

[tjkamper]

Yes Frugal you are right. Unfortunately I have no way of measuring the Utility a person receives out of having an electric car. For some people they may receive a lot of utility. For others they may actually receive negative utility from an electric car. Until there is a way is a way to measure the precise number of "UTILS" each person gets there is no way to make that determination without doing extensive surveys, which still would not be entirely accurate. This is why there was no attempt to incorporate the "COOL FACTOR" or the "EGO BOOST" of having an electric car.

We all need to remember the ONE LESSON OF ECONOMICS, "The Cost of something is what you give up to have it." (The $18,305 difference in price between the Malibu and the VOLT could not actually be the cost of the car. It could be the Cost of feeling good about yourself for helping the environment, or supporting advances in technology).

In-All... Frugal, you made an excellent observation. I hope you are not the only one.

[Rayme]

The volt is a hybrid (so it's not exactly cutting edge as in, it's not new technology), but in the sense as the electric engine is the main provider for movement...but you have to plug it to charge its huge batteries.

It is a great stepping stone to bring down costs and new technologies... I sure hope to own something electric before I die one day, ahaha.