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Old February 3rd, 2013, 03:48 AM   #81
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Thanks blue
I may try Iridium plugs later. But right now I have a real problem with the voltage .
this is what happens.
The lack of time to charge the coil to full strength (as rpm rises), means there is less and less Voltage available at higher rpm.
Now this isn't such a problem WITHOUT nitrous, as the NA charge density (and therefore cylinder pressure) doesn't reach anywhere near the same levels as they do with nitrous.
However, when you add nitrous you increase the PRE-COMBUSTION PRESSURES and that requires MORE VOLTAGE, rather than DECLINING Voltage that we are stuck with.

The result is as follows;

Pressure rises and reaches peak pressure JUST as the spark is required.

The strength is inadequate so it CAN'T jump the plug gap WHEN INTENDED.

The piston continues to rise and FALL but WITHOUT the spark occurring.

As the piston FALLS so does the pressure in the chamber and at the point where the pressure is lower, than the level where the Voltage IS adequate to jump the plug gap IT DOES and a spark is created and the combustion charge ignited.

UNFORTUNATELY this is FAR TOO LATE and as a consequence power FLAT LINES or at worst FALLS compared to what WOULD be the case if the spark was strong enough to fire at the CORRECT TIME/PRESSURE.
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 05:39 AM   #82
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Racers, sounds like your on the same learning curve every engine builder experiences when pushing things to the edge. Again back to when we built nitrous car engines, we needed better ignition modules (cdi boxes) for more coil saturation at higher RPM which gave us Stronger spark to overcome the way higher cylinder pressure. Also better coils to supply the higher voltage for the same purpose. Looking at the overall package, there is no reason why you couldn't run an MSD 6A automotive CDI unit with 2 automotive style coils. You should see the spark energy that comes out of these things !! Take a look at the MSD website, they're all about ignition systems, they have some cool stuff you could use.
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 08:07 AM   #83
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How about something to boost that energy coming from the coils. Check these guys out. They might have what your looking for.

http://www.dynatekuk.com/sports_bikes.html
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 08:42 AM   #84
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What is the max voltage output of the stock coils of the 250?
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 11:21 AM   #85
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Yes Dyna coils are what I will probubly end up with.

I love the stick coils because of space.
You have to be careful. Something about the 250 ninja pickup won't work with some ignition systems.


I am also looking into upping the voltage from the alternator to 16 volt. I need a charging system to run the nitrous system and bottle heater.

I don't know the voltage rating of the stock coils. But mine would put out 30kv with ease.
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 11:59 AM   #86
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....I don't know the voltage rating of the stock coils. But mine would put out 30kv with ease.
Would it be safe to say that the stock coils on the Ninja 500 would put out 40-50k volts?
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 12:54 PM   #87
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no. The coil requirements are the same for both enginres. Sincde both engines have the same compression ratio.
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 09:14 PM   #88
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Its not just about max voltage output. Though obviously more is better. The energy that a coil can store is just as important.

I'm pretty theres no way to test how much the stock ones output without some expensive equipment.

I would say stock output no more than 30 to 40kv. Put the amount they can store is low.

I looked into this last week sometime. I think the cheapest I could find was around $150 for a high performance coil.
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 09:20 PM   #89
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I am also looking into upping the voltage from the alternator to 16 volt. I need a charging system to run the nitrous system and bottle heater.
With increasing the voltage from the alternator. Does this involve just a different regulator or a complete alternator swap.
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Old February 3rd, 2013, 11:37 PM   #90
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Just a regulator. If I can figure out how to do it.
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Old February 4th, 2013, 05:54 AM   #91
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Just a regulator. If I can figure out how to do it.
Can you fool the regulator into thinking system voltage is low, thus comanding the alt. Into putting out higher voltage?
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Old February 4th, 2013, 06:22 AM   #92
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That would be the idea. This was suggested to me as an additional thing to help. But I don't know. The more I think about it the more I want to hold off on it.

I have 14.7 volts now. I want to see if the coils work. I should not need to do this. I will if I have to. But plenty of engines run on 12 volt.
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Old February 4th, 2013, 07:19 AM   #93
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But few make 2 times the rated HP on nitrous !!! A capacitor in the battery + wire at the coil might ensure enough current to the coil. These capacitors should be available from radio shack.
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Old February 4th, 2013, 07:39 AM   #94
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That is a good idea.. So the coils would have a sorta power reserve.
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Old February 4th, 2013, 09:11 AM   #95
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So after some research I have decided to go with the Takai coils. And iridium plugs. The stick coils will clean up a nasty area behind the radiator.

Also the company is a US company and the owner answered the phone and has answers to all my question. Super friendly and the service was great.

Now I just have to put the bike back together ad get back to te dyno.

I predict 60 hp 30 ft lb of torque at 12500 rpm. Lets see.


http://www.takai-racing.com/main/ignition_coils.htm
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Old February 4th, 2013, 09:36 AM   #96
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Wow that's some price!
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Old February 4th, 2013, 09:45 AM   #97
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That did hurt. It just means no shocks for the van. Other thing I looked at cost 200 and are not made for the 250 ninja. I need to move fast to have this bike ready for April 27. Plus I have found you get what you pay for in most cases.
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Old February 4th, 2013, 09:45 PM   #98
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Do you know when your going to dyno it next? Keen as to see your results.
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Old February 5th, 2013, 05:16 AM   #99
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Have you seen this?

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/alt_mod.html
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Old February 5th, 2013, 05:59 AM   #100
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Thanks that will help when I do need to raise voltage.

I will have the bike back together this weekend. I hope to dyno it before the end of Febuary.
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Old February 5th, 2013, 07:13 AM   #101
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....So after some research I have decided to go with the Takai coils.

....I predict 60 hp 30 ft lb of torque at 12500 rpm. Lets see.
So is it a kit with some adapters or just the stick coils? What's the voltage output on these coils?

A seven HP increase huh? Should be interesting.
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Old February 5th, 2013, 07:17 AM   #102
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The coils are a kit. But the kit must just be wiring adapters to te plug. The coils themselves just drop in.

It is not really a seven hp increase. I made 50 hp at just over 11000 rpm . I should be at close to 13000 rpm. So I think I am ten hp down .
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Old February 27th, 2013, 11:47 AM   #103
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Ok still working but I just went over 55 hp
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Old February 27th, 2013, 02:11 PM   #104
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Ok still working but I just went over 55 hp
With the Takai coils and Iridium Plugs?
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Old February 28th, 2013, 09:08 AM   #105
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this is some stuff from yesterday, When I get to fifth gear I put my foot down and push the nitrous button at 10000 rpm. you can see the tack climp, and the engine sound smooths out. Sorry about the sound.

http://youtu.be/XukbeavNwdg

the gap happens when I hit the button ,But it is just a dyno problem. I made 25 pulls and the last one not shown had good power out to the rev limit. The problem was a lean spike at the beginning and then it would go to rich, I reduced the lean spike and leaned out the top end .
now it is time to see how fast it will go.
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Old February 28th, 2013, 09:33 AM   #106
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What tires are you running now? Which motor was that?
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Old February 28th, 2013, 10:52 AM   #107
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That is a 265 cc engine with some head work and 4mm over bore. And a Barnett clutch.

I run a Dunlop slicks but can't find any front tires. And I can't find a rear tall enough so I am running a Shinko 130/70/17 rear and a 95/70/17 front.
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Old February 28th, 2013, 11:11 AM   #108
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That sound is just impressive. Looking forward to see how this season goes for you.
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Old February 28th, 2013, 12:25 PM   #109
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Holy crap I think you get the award for the loudest ninja!
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Old February 28th, 2013, 12:46 PM   #110
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That is with baffles.With open pipes it is unreal, Painful from ten feet. I got a Db meter and it pegged it at 120 db and that was just revving it in neutral. It is so loud when I run it. The tower cant call my speed until I turn around . And even though they are watching all sort of race cars scream past they always mention how loud it is.
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Old June 11th, 2013, 12:29 PM   #111
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I got the charts back from the Dyno. This I oK for drag racing. But I need a little more fuel for land speed. The 15 to 1 area is to lean.
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Old January 21st, 2014, 03:28 PM   #112
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I guess I need to resurrect this thread. I went to Ohio to test the bike with 60 hp. But I did not have a good day, I totally f ed up. I drained the entire fuel system in June because I would not run the bike again until the end of September. I forgot to bleed the fuel system for the nitrous. This takes five to ten seconds for fuel to run gravity feed through all the hoses then fill up the pulsoid and begin flowing into the motor with the nitrous.

For the 2014 season I will not have that problem. And I will have both a 265cc engine and now a 282cc engine.

I made one pass all motor just to test my repaired shoulder more than anything. went about 105mph.

Then went for the nitrous shot. Everything was perfect . wind was calm warm nice day, bottle pressure perfect. I got to about 103 mph and pushed the nitrous button in sixth gear. One half second latter the EGT read 1600 deg F!!! and I drifted through the trap at 56 mph. drifting over 1/4 of a mile. Then having to push the bike two miles back to my van. and go home.
DRY SHOT because I did not purge the fuel side of the nitrous system. O well the bike is still the fastest one in the record book.
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Old January 23rd, 2014, 08:52 AM   #113
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There is logic behind this.I am not trying to blow up engines . Not trying to make a 250 ninja like a 600.We are in competition to see how fast a 250 cc motorcycle can go . and will use what ever it takes.
Welp, IF you do happen to blow one up, I literally have 5 motors at the shop right now. Just sayin'
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Old January 23rd, 2014, 09:32 AM   #114
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Good to know. This just took the tips off the plugs . I had the damage fixed in a couple hours. Now I will take parts and tools with me to race. Normally I don't rebuild at the track. But now I am going to take everything.
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Old January 23rd, 2014, 01:50 PM   #115
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.... pushed the nitrous button in sixth gear. One half second latter the EGT read 1600 deg F!!!
Quote:
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....This just took the tips off the plugs.
What plugs were you running?
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Old January 23rd, 2014, 02:43 PM   #116
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You are one lucky guy. All my dry shots always went KABOOM! in spectacular fashion.

I always go with a 4 jet spread just be be safe to begin with and tune from there. Do you have any timing control?, or do you just take a little out in general.

Also, I have had really good results with NOS Systems Fogger II nozzles. You get a really good mix. 900 psi bottle and 6 psi fuel pressure, equal length lines with no kinks or fitting without radius turns. At such a small shot, phase separation is not a really big deal, but details are the devil.

How are you keeping the head clamped? Again, low doses are not QUITE as likely to push a gasket, but you can't beat o-rings and a copper gasket.

I ran one motor with a Cometic graphite gasket maybe 30 passes at 18 hp per cylinder before it started leaking (on a KZ-1000) while I had my race head and cylinder in the machine shop for the double O-ring treatment.

If nothing else, APE most likely has some good studs that will work to help.

Dont'cha LOVE what a little shot does to the torque curve. Be sure to gear to take advantage. Nitrous loves a load.
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Old January 23rd, 2014, 03:34 PM   #117
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I use the Wizards of nitrous system. I have full control of everything. Except my own stupidity,
I use stock everything at this point except for forged JE pistons.

I test and tune on the dyno and at the 1/4 mile track. I used other systems and yes Kaboom.

Until this incident (which was totally my fault)I have not even damaged a plug. They are Cr10E NGK. Blue

The W.O.N. system is progressive and totally programmable. I dont use half the stuf the controller can do. I get 100% increase in hP and Torque. I push the button at 10000 RPM and it is making 60+ at 12500.

I usually spray fifth and sixth gear. But with the 60 HP I just used sixth and wanted to see how it pulled .. I am at 100mph in a half mile. Gearing is everything in land speed racing. I am at 16/39 with a tall tire.
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Old January 27th, 2014, 10:45 AM   #118
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I got the 66mm Weisco pistons today. They definitly hit the head. But should be OK. It looks like the block was sleved.

The head is going along well. I will have to order some little gaskets but the 282cc engine should be running soon. I cant wait to see how it does.
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File Type: jpg IMG_20140126_175054_673.jpg (69.1 KB, 0 views)
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Old January 27th, 2014, 07:07 PM   #119
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I installed the pistons just for fit. I am going to replace the piston pin clips and rings.
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Old February 25th, 2014, 05:24 AM   #120
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MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16
The 2014 season is in full swing and I am not looking so good. The ignition system in my bike has no spark. I tried and checked everything. So I am pulling the fuel injection from the turbo build and converting my CR Specials to Ecotron fuel injection. This should work really well with the nitrous. And eventually I can have the two systems communicate to regulate nitrous flow and fuel flow to achieve the proper mixture. This sort of thing is above my skill level by a huge jump. But Matt has been helping me and I can't say enough about the confidence I have After dealing with him these last few months.
The system looks great and I can't wait to get running.

I need to add a fitting to my tank for the return line and find a place for everything. Moving the throttle to the left is great. It gets it out of the hose connection g from the head.
I have a 2 into 2 exhaust so the dual o2 sensors and exhaust gas temp sensors sticking out should look wild.

The carbs actually take up a lot of room. Plus the need to remove the carbs for adjustment is something I don't have to worry about with throttle body's.

I am going to make a lap top holder that will clip to the side of the frame.

First race will be ASAP at the 1/4 mile track. First time trial in Ohio is May 2-3
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