Any shifting issues please tell your story

[ztrack157]

Not all 250's are necessarily effected so please do not post up a mine is running fine post

Kawasaki has been doing a hush hush investigation on false neutrals and the ninja 250's transmission issues. This includes falling out of gear (usually 4th). We (me and a cmra endurance racer) have found that the detent spring is flimsy and not acceptable for racing and prolonged usage (I am developing a shift kit for the 250) and that the shift arms suck and can fall down behind the clutch fairly easily (endurance teams had this issue at their last race).

This is just some of the stuff we have had happen. It is not a race only issue but I am around the 250's alot and these are some of the issues I find.

Two 250's at today's AFM race had shifting issues. One of them was Mark Mckinney who had his bike get stuck between second and third gear. The other was Kirk Korenko the top AFM 250 guy who had his bike drop from 4th gear to neutral going down the straight away and he was almost cremed as a result.


So far it has been determined that the major flaw is in the actual design straight from Kawasaki. Their acceptable scale for the transmission gearing specifications when they are made it about the size of china so this is why some people have zero problems and some will have issues even when it is in the acceptable range for production. This means you can have an issue and kawasaki will not cover it under warranty because it is within spec.

The only fix at this time is to have your transmission gearing shimmed to be dead on or very close to being perfect.

I have been given a number of a Kawasaki USA engineer who says he wants any and all issues to be reported otherwise nothing will be done.

[bdavison]

Ive had false neutrals, but its only when I make the mistake of soft shifting it.
Ive found that using good shifting technique of firm shifts, with a pause at the top eliminates this.

[tabogon]

I have noticed a few times my trans shift into neutral while moving. Downshifting and upshifting, funny thing is I can hear and feel the shift into the next gear (i.e. the "clunk" into 1st) and then I hear the engine rev high and realize it dropped into neutral again.

I am really solid in my shifting and usually don't have this problem, so I don't know if it's me or the bike.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by bdavison

Ive had false neutrals, but its only when I make the mistake of soft shifting it.
Ive found that using good shifting technique of firm shifts, with a pause at the top eliminates this.

+1 on this, but maybe I've just not been interpreting it correctly.

The only other issue I've noticed is that (sometimes) if I downshift through the box while stopping quickly and wind up in 2nd as I come to a halt, I can't get it into 1st without slipping the clutch a bit first. That's made for some awkward getaways in traffic.

Stomp... STOMP (%*!*$) <HONK> Lurch <HOOONK> Clunk and go

[tabogon]

I have had that happen quite a few times, but from what I have read about it it's normal. Something to do with the way a motorcycle trans works makes it hard as hell to shift it once it's stopped. Slipping the clutch like you have done is the only answer I have ever gotten to "fix" the trans in that senario, or make sure to shift into 1st before you stop.

[Soujyu]

I've had the transmission slip from 6th -> false neutral quite a few times during the break-in period, but I haven't seen it since my second oil change using synthetic oil.

I did have one case where I was going up a moderately steep grade, and I was dropping from 5th to 4th, and the transmission dropped to a false neutral. I wasn't able to get it out of the false neutral until I got all the way down to 1st, and the transmission all of a sudden kicked in.

[Broc]

I have almost all of the symptoms ztrack has mentioned.

When shifting from 2nd > 3rd the gear completely disappears, you press up on the shifter and nothing is there, the shifter actually moves farther than it would to shift. I have to roll off the throttle and back on for the gear to reappear. Sometimes this also leaves me in between 2nd and 3rd gear and I will have to put it back into either gear to get going again. This happens to me alot, almost everytime I ride.

I also get the false neutral from time to time but I have noticed this on almost every sport bike, dirt bike, atv I've ever ridden so I'm not too concerned. A firm shift usually eliminates this for me.

The other concern I do have is the bike completely dropping out of gear under high rpm acceleration. I can be in 3rd or 4th usually. Pulling hard into a corner and then you just hear the rpms scream and the bikes out of gear. I have to manually put it back into gear. It is very annoying when riding it aggressive. I have even tested it with my foot no where near the shifter (thinking it was me) and the damn thing pops out like no tomorrow. This also happens very frequently when riding the piss out of my bike.

I have never tracked my bike but I do ride this thing pretty rough. I'm WOT 80% of the time.

I have had these issues since brand new but they have recently gotten worse for me around 6,000 miles. I have never taken it in to the dealership for warranty. I use to run a Honda/Toyota service department and am a mechanic by trade and know the warranty side of things. Internal transmission and engine issues are usually not easy to resolve. Plus the dealers around here are not the best. I think they'd take one look at my 15t sprocket and give me the boot. I think I have 2-3 weeks left under warranty so I might check, we shall see.

Hope my story helps! I think I just kind of expect these issues from a small cheap bike, I dunno but new stuff breaks just like old stuff unfortunately.

[zenrush]

Originally Posted by adouglas

The only other issue I've noticed is that (sometimes) if I downshift through the box while stopping quickly and wind up in 2nd as I come to a halt, I can't get it into 1st without slipping the clutch a bit first. That's made for some awkward getaways in traffic.

Stomp... STOMP (%*!*$) <HONK> Lurch <HOOONK> Clunk and go

+1 The same thing has happened to me often enough that I am getting down right pissed off about it.

Only once has the bike slipped into a false neutral on me and that was upshifting in the middle of a turn from 1st to 2nd. I chalked it up to a bad shift on my part since it has only happened the one time though.

Odd part on both of these is that I can hear the tell tale clunk of the shift. Oh and I only have a tad over 600 miles on the bike.

[Momaru]

Had a handful of false 4th-5th shifts that turned into neutral; had to release the clutch lever and try a few times to get it back. Haven't gotten stuck though.

Have up-shifted from 2nd into neutral as well, but again, only a couple instances in 12,500+mi

[austexjg]

I too have to slip the clutch at times to downshift - sometimes in all the gears as I slow down.

[LazinCajun]

Just yesterday I hit a false neutral between 4th and 5th or 3rd and 4th, can't remember exactly which at the moment.

[Guinss]

Originally Posted by austexjg

I too have to slip the clutch at times to downshift - sometimes in all the gears as I slow down.

That happens if you slow down alot before starting shifting.

[ScorpionNinja]

Originally Posted by bdavison

Ive had false neutrals, but its only when I make the mistake of soft shifting it.
Ive found that using good shifting technique of firm shifts, with a pause at the top eliminates this.

+1 ditto!

Ive noticed as long as i pull the shift lever hard to shift, all is well.

If i soft shifted, yes its slipped outta 3rd,4th,5th on me afew times!

I cannot say that its slipped outta gear after i shift hard with it.

[bobguy]

Originally Posted by adouglas

+1 on this, but maybe I've just not been interpreting it correctly.

The only other issue I've noticed is that (sometimes) if I downshift through the box while stopping quickly and wind up in 2nd as I come to a halt, I can't get it into 1st without slipping the clutch a bit first. That's made for some awkward getaways in traffic.

Stomp... STOMP (%*!*$) <HONK> Lurch <HOOONK> Clunk and go

I have this happen as well. And I've had it drop to neutral a couple times but I just assumed this was me screwing up because I'm a new rider

[bdavison]

Guys complaining about downshifting difficulty....there is likely nothing wrong with the bike.
Please read below, and I hope this helps you out and clears things up a bit.

The ninja 250R does NOT have synchromesh trannys like a car. So there is no synchronization between the gears that will allow you to shove it into whatever gear you like whenever you like. These are motorcycle trannys...and as such if you are downshifting you need to learn how to do it. Learn how to do rev-matched downshifts while you are coming to a stop, or keep dealing with the difficult downshifts.

If you were to pop the lid on a 250R tranny, you would see DOGS...not a tightly spaced synchromesh. The ninja 250R has was is called a constant mesh sequential design. What happens when you have a difficult downshift is you are shifting the dogs into the face of the gear, and not the slots...so it doesnt engage. And no matter how hard you push on the shifter...it cannot shove the dogs into a solid metal gear. They MUST fit into the slots for it to engage. And the only way they can match up with the slots is if you have the RPMS the same.

The term constant mesh refers to the fact that there are two gears (a drive gear and a driven gear) for each gear change and all these gears are constantly engaged with their respective partners.

The gears are arranged on two shafts, the drive gears on the mainshaft are connected to the engine via the clutch and the six driven gears on the countershaft are connected individually to the sprocket that drives the chain. All the drive gears are splined onto the mainshaft and all the driven gears rotate freely. A gear is selected by the use of a dog, one for each gear. Each dog is splined onto the countershaft and slides along the spline, as they do so they engage the driven gear connecting it to the countershaft. Shift forks move the dogs in and out of gear.


Sure you might get lucky and be able to slam it down fast and manage to skip a dog into the slot....which by the way is what makes that loud CLUNK noise when you do it.

Now for the same reason...upshifting requires that you again have the dogs fit in the slots....only its much easier because the engine is accelerating, and the RPMs are already close to each other...unlike downshifting where they can be hundreds of RPMs apart.

So the false neutral isnt actually a false neutral....its a failure of the dogs to go into the slots. And instead ride the face of the gear. This is why its usually the result of a "soft" shift. In other words you lightly tapped the shifter, and it didnt fully seat the dogs in the slots. As you let out the clutch...and accelerate...they either miss completely and you just get blank RPMS, or it pops out of its partial position in the slots.

You CAN fix this issue by upshifting firmly, and HOLDING the upshift as you begin to let out the clutch. If you shift properly, it WONT do it.

Now in regards to the OP's post.
More than likely, IF you are certain that there is a problem, and not lack of proper shifting technique....there are a few possibilities.

1. Worn and or missing dogs....from slamming it into gear without the rev's matched
2. Bent shift forks - again from trying to force it into gear without the rev's matched
3. Gored out shift drum - same thing....slamming it into gear.

[2WheelGuy]

My '08 pops out of 5th gear occasionally. It doesn't go to neutral it just downshifts a gear. This happened a few times at Sears Point yesterday. Usually while accelerating from turn 10 to turn 11. I'd be in 5th gear then bam!!! my tack would jump past redline.

This is nothing new for the 250 Ninja as my pre-gens all exhibited the same behavior.

[ztrack157]

I don't think the bottom end has changed a whole lot between the two models. Did you see Mark's (Lisa's motor) clutch?

[Racer x]

OK my 2008 had a problem It is one of the first 1000 250 ninjas made according to the serial number.

Basically the trans shifted fine .BUT If I tried to do quick shifting under race track conditions . Like drag racing. Or just hard launching .If I was sloppy and did not go int second with authority then it would come out of second with a bang sending the engine into the rev limiter HARD. And remember I had the 88-94 ignition system for a while . That rev limit was 15000 RPM so I do mean hard when I say it .

I was on the DYNO and turned off the engine with the rear wheel still spinning . It only took about 20 sec for the trans to LOCK up .Welding Fifth gear to the input shaft.
The engine oil pump provides lube for the trans .

I think the problem is with the positive neutral finder.
I got a 2009 trans off E bay for 100 dollars and it is perfect .Not showing any tendency to come out of gear . No mater how hard I slam it or how poorly I shift . So I am beginning to believe it may not have been my lack of riding skill after all.


Notice how I reach over and flip the sprocket on the right side .That is to get the trans to go from First to second And not first to neutral. .If the chain sprocket is not moving the trans will not shift to second it goes to neutral.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[littledog]

I think these things are not normal:

loud "clunk" between 1st and 2nd, both upshift and downshift,

false neutral between 5th and 6th, and

some odd behavior where the shift lever will travel beyond its normal range of motion, and not shift.

[Guinss]

I think it's just a matter of technique. You just cant wait with downshifting from 6th gear, when you already stopped at the traffic light. A good rider downshifts as the speed goes down, even if you break hard, it should go automaticly.

When shifting upwards, your transmission will slip down back into the previous gear or a false neutral if:
1 you don't shift properly, or
2 you don't let the shifter go all the way back to its normal position before you shift again.

Between 1st and 2nd gear, there is a neutral, which means you will need to hit the shifter properly so it goes all the way to 2nd gear. You just need to be aware of it, its how the transmission works.

Originally Posted by Racer x

Notice how I reach over and flip the sprocket on the right side .That is to get the trans to go from First to second And not first to neutral. .If the chain sprocket is not moving the trans will not shift to second it goes to neutral.

Yup, with this type of transmission though, you would never get it to shift to 2nd standing still, so they made it always hit neutral if your standing still. It is intended.

Originally Posted by bdavison

So the false neutral isnt actually a false neutral....its a failure of the dogs to go into the slots. And instead ride the face of the gear. This is why its usually the result of a "soft" shift. In other words you lightly tapped the shifter, and it didnt fully seat the dogs in the slots. As you let out the clutch...and accelerate...they either miss completely and you just get blank RPMS, or it pops out of its partial position in the slots.

Excactly, you can find a neutral between every gear with this type of shifting system. I have splitted a couple of am6 engines(50cc) and its same type of system, with a barrel that turns, taking the dogs up/down and barrels locks into place every 1 centimeter or so. That would be how far you will need to push the shifter in order to shift properly, and between gear 1 and 2, there was the 50% increased travel distance, because of the neutral gear needs to have a lock position aswell.

[Keenan84]

after i read that story of the guys transmission blowing up, i have been a bit freaked out. sometimes i feel like its shifting like butter, and others i need to apply more pressure and its clunky. it really depends. I have only had it slip out of gear once on me when i was going from first to second....and it may have been my error as i probably didnt apply enough pressure to properly put it in gear. other than that, it has actually been pretty good to me. oh and sometimes when im at a stop light, getting into/out of first can be a pain and i have to roll the bike back and forth a bit before the gear goes in.

[CZroe]

I've had it kick into a false neutral in higher gears many times even after feeling it pull momentarily.

[srsly]

I have issues almost daily.

1. Randomly finding false-neutral between 2-3 and less often between 3-4
2. When downshifting quickly, without releasing the clutch, from 3 or 4 after a couple clicks it just stops making any noise and won't clunk into gear unless I feather the clutch out a little bit.

Randomly a few times going down this hill right before my office in 2 or 3 I've had it just slip out of gear into N. It's not regular and my clutch cable appears to be adjusted correctly so I don't worry about that one.

[ztrack157]

Keep posting up the feedback guys

[europachris]

The wife's bike seems to be exhibiting this issue now with ~800 miles on it. She is wondering how she could be riding worse rather than better! I'll be checking the clutch cable adjustment this afternoon and take it for a ride to see if I notice anything. I rode it earlier this spring while adjusting the carbs/needles, and it seemed OK to me, but after riding my Buell, pretty much anything will seem to shift better.

Chris

[Seattle_Chris]

I've gotten stuck between gears a few times before. But it's always while I'm just playing around toying with shifting. I think it's kinda a case of Limp Ankle'ing (is that a word?). As long as I clutch enough and firmly shift, it's not a problem.

So yeah, I've had problems, but I think their just user error.

[wayanlam]

ive hit that scary neutral between 3rd and 4th gear, both times when i was downshifting to take a turn. both times i shat myself, haha...

both times i noticed that i did not down shift hard enough which must have caused this "secret" neutral.

this problem could end up causing people to crash quite badly if they expect to engine break for a corner! i fully thought i was going to overshoot the turn when it happened to me, ended up hauling in the breaks and felt like i was flying!

[wvninja]

I've had mine slip out of 5th while moving to pass a simi ... talk about fun as the bike went I started to go around went to hit 6th and nothing shifted up again (thinking I had missed it as a quick shift this happend in under a few seconds) and it went into 3rd!!!!!!!!!! ( I double tapped up in an effort to make sure it hit 6th) WOW had to immediatly pull in the clutch and shift up until i couldnt anymore and get on it. Talk about scary. This was on a 2 lane road granted it was a long straight and no oncoming traffic but you know the uneasy feeling sitting beside a simi on some 2 lane road.. not fun. This has only happend to me once and I hope for it to not happen again anytime soon.

Secondly I have had quiet a few time on my bike where I am putting through my neighborhood (stop sign to stop sign) and when i shift into second it goes and then all of a sudden im in nuetral. It isnt immediate, sometimes it happens well after I've hit second and could've actually hit third (but no need driving 15 / 20 mph expecting to just come to a stop at the next sign) and it just randomly slips into nuetral. I blame myself for perhaps not fully shifting up a gear (soft shift) but perhaps its a problem with the bike itself.

[wayanlam]

Originally Posted by wvninja

Secondly I have had quiet a few time on my bike where I am putting through my neighborhood (stop sign to stop sign) and when i shift into second it goes and then all of a sudden im in nuetral. It isnt immediate, sometimes it happens well after I've hit second and could've actually hit third (but no need driving 15 / 20 mph expecting to just come to a stop at the next sign) and it just randomly slips into nuetral. I blame myself for perhaps not fully shifting up a gear (soft shift) but perhaps its a problem with the bike itself.

uh... that's happened to me too a couple times now that i think about it. thankfully every time this happened i was just cruising, and already in a gear since a while (might have been 3rd or 4th i think). if this happened while overtaking with some oncoming traffic i would be really worried

but again i think this might have happened because i did not up or down shift into the gear solidly. so i might have been too gentle with the shift, and the gear slipped/shifted into gear, but it was not sitting in there properly? i don't really know how gears work mechanically speaking, so this is jut my speculation. regardless its been rather irritating when it happened! but not as terrifying like hitting the neutral coming out of 4th then i was expecting to engine break in 3rd before coming into a turn

[kyl18b]

Originally Posted by bdavison

Ive had false neutrals, but its only when I make the mistake of soft shifting it.
Ive found that using good shifting technique of firm shifts, with a pause at the top eliminates this.

+1

[Green Streak]

I have had the problem with being unable downshifting into first on occasion. But, I just double clutch it and it goes in. I have had no issues with popping out of gear or false neutral.

[europachris]

Originally Posted by europachris

I'll be checking the clutch cable adjustment this afternoon and take it for a ride to see if I notice anything.

Just wanted to update my original post - I adjusted the clutch cable as it was a bit loose. I set it to just a bit over 1/16" of free play. She has been out on it twice since and immediately noted better shifting with more positive "clicks" between gears and no more false neutral problems.

It didn't seem that the clutch cable adjustment would be that sensitive - it wasn't that loose - but it definitely made a big difference!

Chris

[philiminilli]

I know I am bringing this back from the dead, but was there any solution found for this? I know a local racer pulled his clutch off and made a stronger detent spring and he said that fixed the issue

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by philiminilli

I know I am bringing this back from the dead, but was there any solution found for this? I know a local racer pulled his clutch off and made a stronger detent spring and he said that fixed the issue

stronger star spring holds it in gear better. you can also change the star itself to a higher angle / deeper pit star pattern. you can also change the "washer" type thing on the end of the shift hub to a slightly wider one (you only get a few mm clearance) to help keep the forks from coming off and you can replace the spring between the two fork arms with a stronger one. after a while of shifting those springs start to loose some tension.

[DCMoney]

Factory Pro makes a spring, I was just getting ready to purchase one today.

http://www.factorypro.com/prod_pages/prodk04.html

[alex.s]

i'm wondering how well it would work to just throw a couple washers under the stock shift spring


i'll try it tonight and let you all know

[capt_bugaloo]

Neither my 2008 nor my 2011 have any shifting issues; in fact, I'd say they both shift much nicer than a lot of other bikes I've rode.

Did they clear this issue up with the later years?

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by capt_bugaloo

Neither my 2008 nor my 2011 have any shifting issues; in fact, I'd say they both shift much nicer than a lot of other bikes I've rode.

Did they clear this issue up with the later years?

according to parts diagrams, the 300 sees a new shift lock mechanism. the 2008-2012 all look to be the same as far as the transmission/shift linkage goes

[Skullz]

I lose 3rd gear a lot and have to double clutch it to get it back.

[Kscreations08]

Originally Posted by adouglas

+1 on this, but maybe I've just not been interpreting it correctly.

The only other issue I've noticed is that (sometimes) if I downshift through the box while stopping quickly and wind up in 2nd as I come to a halt, I can't get it into 1st without slipping the clutch a bit first. That's made for some awkward getaways in traffic.

Stomp... STOMP (%*!*$) <HONK> Lurch <HOOONK> Clunk and go

Is this one a normal occurance? I've had this once or twice too. Had to shut the bike off and engage/disengage/engage clutch to drop it into first.