Upshifting - clutch or clutchless? - Page 4

CoinSlot · November 22nd, 2011, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ally99

It IS better to use the clutch when downshifting.

Woah there. It's the same both ways. In fact, it is actually easier to get a smooth, clutchless downshift than it is an upshift.

alex.s · November 22nd, 2011, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoinSlot

Woah there. It's the same both ways. In fact, it is actually easier to get a smooth, clutchless downshift than it is an upshift.

i disagree.

CoinSlot · November 22nd, 2011, 06:23 PM

Don't just disagree. Disagree and explain to me why.

It could possibly be because in Australia everything is upside down. But I'm not so sure.

ally99 · November 23rd, 2011, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoinSlot

Woah there. It's the same both ways. In fact, it is actually easier to get a smooth, clutchless downshift than it is an upshift.

Never heard anyone else state your opinion as fact including very experienced and professional riders. Keith Code and David Hough come to mind as two who teach clutchless upshifting. I have never heard of them teaching clutchless downshifting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoinSlot

Don't just disagree. Disagree and explain to me why.

Take your own advice here. Don't just disagree with my statement. Please explain why clutchless downshifting is easier than an upshift. That is quite an original statement, so I'd like to hear your reasoning.

CoinSlot · November 23rd, 2011, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ally99

Please explain why clutchless downshifting is easier than an upshift. That is quite an original statement, so I'd like to hear your reasoning.

Rightio I'll take a stab. Did you watch my little vid back a few pages? That's all clutchless and I don't know if that helps my explanation but It's there to look at anyway.

Easiest way to start off is to find a big hill and build some speed up going down it. You want to do the same as an upshift but in reverse.

So, with some speed back off the throttle and let the engine braking take over (no throttle). Now apply the same pre-pressure to the shifter like you would with an upshift but this time pushing down obviously. Blip the throttle (this step is simply said but the amount of blip depends on speed, rate of deceleration, gear you're in etc.). Just like that you're a gear lower.

It takes all those words to describe what in essence is just 'pressure shifter, blip' and you're done.

alex.s · November 23rd, 2011, 06:57 PM

gordo, we know how to do it. the point is, what useful purpose does it serve?

CoinSlot · November 23rd, 2011, 07:14 PM

You're just joking around with me, right? This thread is full of reasons why. Exactly the same as all the reasons for a clutchless upshift. They all apply to the down shift as well.

Alex · November 23rd, 2011, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoinSlot

They all apply to the down shift as well.

No, I don't think they apply in the same way. The benefits you get from clutchless upshifting aren't there on a clutchless downshift.

Post #77 from right in this thread.

CoinSlot · November 23rd, 2011, 09:45 PM

I understand what you're saying in theory in regards to having the rear brake traction. In practice though I have not had any problems. This is both in daily commuting and also at the track.

alex.s · November 24th, 2011, 12:52 AM

It doesnt gain you anything though...

ally99 · November 24th, 2011, 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoinSlot

Rightio I'll take a stab. Did you watch my little vid back a few pages? That's all clutchless and I don't know if that helps my explanation but It's there to look at anyway.

If you've read through my thread, it's obvious I know how to do both. What I was asking was why you think downshifting is easier/better than upshifting without the clutch. You are the only one I've ever heard make that statement, so I wanted your opinion of why.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alex.s

gordo, we know how to do it. the point is, what useful purpose does it serve?

Exactly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoinSlot

You're just joking around with me, right? This thread is full of reasons why. Exactly the same as all the reasons for a clutchless upshift. They all apply to the down shift as well.

No, this thread is not full of reasons why. Read through it again and you'll see most people do not clutchless downshift, even if they upshift clutchess all the time. As I've stated, doing so when downshifting is riddled with potential problems.

KawiKid860 · December 15th, 2011, 08:38 PM

I clutchless downshift when I'm lazy and rest my foot on the shifter then let off the throttle to slow down lol! Learned not to do that real quick, although shifting between 4 and 5 clutchless is easy on my bike and makes it easy to not have to grab the clutch if I don't want to when I'm city cruising

Asspire · December 21st, 2011, 02:47 PM

i use clutchless shifting so i can "flip the bird" to incoherent cagers, and scooters of course.

Kevin2109 · December 21st, 2011, 02:54 PM

^^ The scooters are the best!

akima · December 21st, 2011, 02:57 PM

^ Kind!

Kevin2109 · December 21st, 2011, 02:59 PM

alex.s · December 21st, 2011, 03:15 PM

i was told by a very fast and very fancy ama racer not to use the clutch. then again he told me to drop 5 gears with one pull and let the slipper figure it out...

dont think i can do that without a slipper clutch on my 600

Kevin2109 · December 21st, 2011, 03:22 PM

Who the **** told you that? Lol. I guess depending on what rpm and speed your at you can drop 5...
Posted via Mobile Device

alex.s · December 21st, 2011, 03:33 PM

Todd says thats what they do coming into CW turn 1 at BW. pulls the clutch, drops 5 gears, and dumps the clutch and lets the slipper do it

Kevin2109 · December 21st, 2011, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alex.s

Todd says thats what they do coming into CW turn 1 at BW. pulls the clutch, drops 5 gears, and dumps the clutch and lets the slipper do it

Then I believe him lol

akima · December 22nd, 2011, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin2109

CC Cowboy · January 3rd, 2012, 11:28 AM

This month's issue of Motorcyclist has the clutchless/shifting debate handled by Keith Code in his monthly "Code Break" article.

wandyhee · January 3rd, 2012, 02:32 PM

if you watch 1:24:10, clearly determine about downshifting without the clutch............ the rest is your decision

Kevin2109 · January 3rd, 2012, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wandyhee

if you watch 1:24:10, clearly determine about downshifting without the clutch............ the rest is your decision

link to the video?

And downshifting without the clutch is fine if you know what your doing

alex.s · January 3rd, 2012, 02:43 PM

i think wandyhee might be talking about the part of the TOTW movie where keith code talks about how clutchless downshifting results in back tire traction loss, clutch-only downshifting results in to much engine braking and also leads to rear tire traction loss, and that the "fast guys" only do clutch+blip/revmatch downshifts. maybe?

wandyhee · January 3rd, 2012, 07:22 PM

errr, the one i'm talking about is in T0TW II video

. what the guy did is brake first, then clutchless downshifting (repeatedly until he get the slower speed he want for cornering). I've tried it but I'm not really smooth on it.

duckracer · January 4th, 2012, 07:37 PM

Clutchless down shifting is hard to do, and hard on the transmission since you have to match the RPM so the dog's will engage. I don't know why you would want to anyway. If you use the clutch you can control wheel hop, and corner entry speed on corner entry, like a poor mans slipper clutch. As for clutchless upshift, it is easy on the transmission, and the faster way around a track. Also if anyone is interested I have been using MPLS racings quickshifter kit on my Ninja and on my old Ducati 996 race bike for years they work great and are easy to install, and only $149.00!!!!! So you can get full throttle upshifts, and we all know we can't afford to loose any momentum on our 250's!!!!!...Oh and I do not work for MPLS just passing along an afordable tool.

wandyhee · January 4th, 2012, 08:26 PM

good sharing duckracer. I also found it's hard to do braking & clutchless downshifting as in TOTW II video.. for now I prefer downshifting using clutch, which is also first option in those video

duckracer · January 4th, 2012, 10:30 PM

No problem, just trying to share some helpful info.

EsrTek · January 5th, 2012, 07:03 AM

If it's hard to clutch less downshift, or at least properly, I am left confused by what I've personally done, albeit accidentally.
On at least 2 occasions, I KNOW I have downshifted just by having my foot rest on the shifter (out of laziness). As stated, it was accidental, but it felt like a seemless downshift, bike didn't get upset at all or make any loud slamming into gear sounds.
I don't recall if I left off the throttle during these times, but did I do something right??

However, I always heard it's bad for the tranny, so I haven't tried to make clutch less anything a practice... I figure they put the clutch in for a reason and I am not a track rider, so why bother.

ally99 · June 16th, 2012, 02:52 PM

Clutchless upshifting is the way to go!

wandyhee · June 16th, 2012, 08:04 PM

it's habit now, up or down shift except from neutral to 1st gear

View Poll Results: How often do you clutchless upshift?
Never	76	32.20%
Rarely	60	25.42%
Sometimes	56	23.73%
Most of the time	26	11.02%
Always	18	7.63%
Voters: 236. You may not vote on this poll

November 23rd, 2011, 06:57 PM	#126
alex.s wat Name: wat Location: tustin/long beach Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): wat Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 5 MOTM - Oct '12, Feb '14	gordo, we know how to do it. the point is, what useful purpose does it serve? __________________________________________________

November 24th, 2011, 12:52 AM	#130
alex.s wat Name: wat Location: tustin/long beach Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): wat Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 5 MOTM - Oct '12, Feb '14	It doesnt gain you anything though... __________________________________________________

December 21st, 2011, 02:54 PM	#134
Kevin2109 KThanksBye Name: Kevin Location: Orange County Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2006 zx636r Posts: A lot.	^^ The scooters are the best! __________________________________________________ ----> My Youtube! <---- Unregistered, watch my youtube page!

December 21st, 2011, 02:57 PM	#135
akima Nooblet Name: Akima Location: England Join Date: Jul 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250R FI Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 5 MOTM - Oct '13	^ Kind! Last futzed with by akima; December 22nd, 2011 at 01:21 PM.

November 22nd, 2011, 06:23 PM	#123
CoinSlot ninjette.org member Name: Gordo Location: Brisbane, AU Join Date: Feb 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Ninja 250R Posts: 36	Don't just disagree. Disagree and explain to me why. It could possibly be because in Australia everything is upside down. But I'm not so sure.

November 23rd, 2011, 07:14 PM	#127
CoinSlot ninjette.org member Name: Gordo Location: Brisbane, AU Join Date: Feb 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Ninja 250R Posts: 36	You're just joking around with me, right? This thread is full of reasons why. Exactly the same as all the reasons for a clutchless upshift. They all apply to the down shift as well.

November 23rd, 2011, 09:45 PM	#129
CoinSlot ninjette.org member Name: Gordo Location: Brisbane, AU Join Date: Feb 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Ninja 250R Posts: 36	I understand what you're saying in theory in regards to having the rear brake traction. In practice though I have not had any problems. This is both in daily commuting and also at the track.

December 15th, 2011, 08:38 PM	#132
KawiKid860 ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Murphey Location: Eastern Washington Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2002 Honda 919, 2004 Ninja 500R NAKED Posts: A lot.	I clutchless downshift when I'm lazy and rest my foot on the shifter then let off the throttle to slow down lol! Learned not to do that real quick, although shifting between 4 and 5 clutchless is easy on my bike and makes it easy to not have to grab the clutch if I don't want to when I'm city cruising

December 21st, 2011, 02:47 PM	#133
Asspire Fix It Till Ya Break It Name: Asspyre Location: T.Dot Join Date: Oct 2011 Motorcycle(s): 08 250RRrrrr Posts: 623	i use clutchless shifting so i can "flip the bird" to incoherent cagers, and scooters of course.

December 21st, 2011, 02:59 PM	#136
Kevin2109 KThanksBye Name: Kevin Location: Orange County Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2006 zx636r Posts: A lot.	__________________________________________________ ----> My Youtube! <---- Unregistered, watch my youtube page!

December 21st, 2011, 03:15 PM	#137
alex.s wat Name: wat Location: tustin/long beach Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): wat Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 5 MOTM - Oct '12, Feb '14	i was told by a very fast and very fancy ama racer not to use the clutch. then again he told me to drop 5 gears with one pull and let the slipper figure it out... dont think i can do that without a slipper clutch on my 600 __________________________________________________

December 21st, 2011, 03:22 PM	#138
Kevin2109 KThanksBye Name: Kevin Location: Orange County Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2006 zx636r Posts: A lot.	Who the **** told you that? Lol. I guess depending on what rpm and speed your at you can drop 5... Posted via Mobile Device

December 21st, 2011, 03:33 PM	#139
alex.s wat Name: wat Location: tustin/long beach Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): wat Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 5 MOTM - Oct '12, Feb '14	Todd says thats what they do coming into CW turn 1 at BW. pulls the clutch, drops 5 gears, and dumps the clutch and lets the slipper do it __________________________________________________

January 3rd, 2012, 11:28 AM	#142
CC Cowboy ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Whodat Location: Ware Is.,MA Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): I pass the wind! Posts: A lot. MOTM - Mar '13, Jun '14	This month's issue of Motorcyclist has the clutchless/shifting debate handled by Keith Code in his monthly "Code Break" article. __________________________________________________ If everything seems under control; you're just not going fast enough! Last futzed with by CC Cowboy; January 3rd, 2012 at 05:05 PM.

January 3rd, 2012, 02:32 PM	#143
wandyhee ninjette.org member Name: andy Location: Borneo-Miri Join Date: Jul 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250R FI, 2006 ZX10R Posts: 175	if you watch 1:24:10, clearly determine about downshifting without the clutch............ the rest is your decision __________________________________________________ I'm Selling wider (4.5" & 5") aftermarket Wheel for N250r/N300r/Z250/Z250r

January 3rd, 2012, 02:43 PM	#145
alex.s wat Name: wat Location: tustin/long beach Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): wat Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 5 MOTM - Oct '12, Feb '14	i think wandyhee might be talking about the part of the TOTW movie where keith code talks about how clutchless downshifting results in back tire traction loss, clutch-only downshifting results in to much engine braking and also leads to rear tire traction loss, and that the "fast guys" only do clutch+blip/revmatch downshifts. maybe? __________________________________________________

January 3rd, 2012, 07:22 PM	#146
wandyhee ninjette.org member Name: andy Location: Borneo-Miri Join Date: Jul 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250R FI, 2006 ZX10R Posts: 175	errr, the one i'm talking about is in T0TW II video . what the guy did is brake first, then clutchless downshifting (repeatedly until he get the slower speed he want for cornering). I've tried it but I'm not really smooth on it. __________________________________________________ I'm Selling wider (4.5" & 5") aftermarket Wheel for N250r/N300r/Z250/Z250r

January 4th, 2012, 07:37 PM	#147
duckracer ninjette.org member Name: Randy Location: Ofallon, Mo Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ducati 1098 and 04 Ninja 250 race bikes Posts: 60	Clutchless down shifting is hard to do, and hard on the transmission since you have to match the RPM so the dog's will engage. I don't know why you would want to anyway. If you use the clutch you can control wheel hop, and corner entry speed on corner entry, like a poor mans slipper clutch. As for clutchless upshift, it is easy on the transmission, and the faster way around a track. Also if anyone is interested I have been using MPLS racings quickshifter kit on my Ninja and on my old Ducati 996 race bike for years they work great and are easy to install, and only $149.00!!!!! So you can get full throttle upshifts, and we all know we can't afford to loose any momentum on our 250's!!!!!...Oh and I do not work for MPLS just passing along an afordable tool.

January 4th, 2012, 08:26 PM	#148
wandyhee ninjette.org member Name: andy Location: Borneo-Miri Join Date: Jul 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250R FI, 2006 ZX10R Posts: 175	good sharing duckracer. I also found it's hard to do braking & clutchless downshifting as in TOTW II video.. for now I prefer downshifting using clutch, which is also first option in those video __________________________________________________ I'm Selling wider (4.5" & 5") aftermarket Wheel for N250r/N300r/Z250/Z250r Last futzed with by wandyhee; January 4th, 2012 at 11:46 PM.

January 4th, 2012, 10:30 PM	#149
duckracer ninjette.org member Name: Randy Location: Ofallon, Mo Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ducati 1098 and 04 Ninja 250 race bikes Posts: 60	No problem, just trying to share some helpful info.

January 5th, 2012, 07:03 AM	#150
EsrTek ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Eric Location: Murfreesboro, TN Join Date: Jun 2011 Motorcycle(s): '13 300 Posts: A lot.	If it's hard to clutch less downshift, or at least properly, I am left confused by what I've personally done, albeit accidentally. On at least 2 occasions, I KNOW I have downshifted just by having my foot rest on the shifter (out of laziness). As stated, it was accidental, but it felt like a seemless downshift, bike didn't get upset at all or make any loud slamming into gear sounds. I don't recall if I left off the throttle during these times, but did I do something right?? However, I always heard it's bad for the tranny, so I haven't tried to make clutch less anything a practice... I figure they put the clutch in for a reason and I am not a track rider, so why bother.

June 16th, 2012, 02:52 PM	#151
ally99 Ninja chick Name: Allyson Location: Athens, GA Join Date: Jun 2009 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 4 MOTM - Dec '13, Feb '15	Clutchless upshifting is the way to go! __________________________________________________ Sometimes it's the journey that teaches you a lot about your destination. ~Drake Check out my Appalachian Trail journal, 2015! Postwhores are COOL! ~Allyson

June 16th, 2012, 08:04 PM	#152
wandyhee ninjette.org member Name: andy Location: Borneo-Miri Join Date: Jul 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250R FI, 2006 ZX10R Posts: 175	it's habit now, up or down shift except from neutral to 1st gear __________________________________________________ I'm Selling wider (4.5" & 5") aftermarket Wheel for N250r/N300r/Z250/Z250r

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