Am I crazy or is there a rock in my engine?

[Momaru]

A little history... Took my bike in for the 7,500mi tune-up last fall & the shop told me I was entirely within spec. Opened it up about a month ago @10,765mi to check shims while I had a bunch of downtime and found several dozen grains of gravel/sand floating around in the top end of my engine, right next to the valve tappets. Removed 'em all (I think), reshimmed & buttoned back up. Also worth noting I had the clutch disassembled in this process as I'd thought I could get the cam chain off that way, but no joy.

Now @ ~11,000mi and I'm starting to hear an intermittent 'click' noise during warm-up. Didn't hear it the first 2-3 times I warmed the bike up after checking valves, etc and I was listening carefully. Haven't heard it once warm, but TBH I've been riding once it's warmed up. I may still have a loose valve, but that's not what I'm talking about.

Recorded some sound starting about 30 seconds after a dead cold start with the camera mic about 5" from the oil filler cap. The sound I'm talking about happens first at about 5.5seconds into the recording and recurs every ~1-1.5 seconds. Reminds me of someone hitting a typewriter key.

I haven't stripped the bike to try and pinpoint the sound, but definitely louder on the right side. Not thrilled about tearing back into the top end of the engine if it's just the bike creaking. I'm pretty retentive about making sure all the nuts & bolts are back where they should be & torqued before marking a project complete, so I don't think it's that, but I suppose it's a possibility.

Mechanical gurus, any bright ideas? Thanks!

[randomwalk101]

check your air filter..change oil...

[Momaru]

Air filter = K&N pod and it's fairly well cleared, but I'll make sure. Oil change is on the list for the weekend/tomorrow afternoon, hope that does it.

[Verus Cidere]

The only thing I've ever heard (and I'm not a mechanic by any means) that sounded anything like that was a ninja 636 with a broken valve spring. But as you just checked those, that probably won't be it. Just thought I'd say something though, as it sounded similar to me. Some gearhead on here will know for sure!

[Snake]

When you drain your oil check to see if there are any grains of gravel/sand. If there is I would change the oil again after 100 miles to flush out the engine. If there is still contamination in the oil then I would take it to the dealer and have them look at it for signs of abnormal wear.

[Momaru]

Thanks for the input/ideas guys.

Rode ~10min to warm up the oil (same sound warming up the bike for the ride), then changed. No gravel whatsoever. Air filter was a little dusty but that's all. Didn't hear anything out of the ordinary (ie the issue I'm trying to address) when I ran it after the change, but I didn't hear it once the bike was warm before the oil change either. Waiting for the bike to once again get cold for a definitive test.

Verus, to be clear, I just re-shimmed the valves, didn't take a look at the springs so one of them being broken is possible, but would the bike otherwise run pretty normally with a broken valve spring? That seems like it would be more epic an issue than just some noise on warm-up.

[Momaru]

Bah, noise is still there.
Guess I'll be taking the bike apart again this weekend instead of riding.

[Verus Cidere]

Well, I don't know for sure. I didn't actually get to ride the bike that made the sound, just heard it running. I was told that you could ride it, but that it would be very bad for the valves if you did. Again, I'm probably wrong, and I'm no mechanic, but that's what it sounds like to me.

[Robbo81]

You should do as snake mentioned but also it its always a good idea to cut the cardboard out of your old oil filter (take note of which side of the filter is the inner and outer part) , fold it into its natural shape and then place it in a vice to sqeeze all the old oil out if it. Undo the vice, take out the vice and open the filter in good lighting. If you can see multiple larger sizes of metal in the valleys on ther inner side of ther filter cardboard, then you have problems. But if not, you are all good. I would fill it back up with oil and repeat this process after a about 50 miles just to be sure.

[Momaru]

Just tore apart the oil filter as you suggested. Not seeing much in the way of metal fragments in there. However under the sunlight I noticed something I didn't see last night. My oil glitters. The stuff out of the bottle doesn't.
The moly-oil mix I made for the valve shims and cam journals looks about right and I used moly grease directly on a few parts as well, but this seems like a lot more than I should be getting. Next step, pull the top end apart again.

[Momaru]

After a cold afternoon around snooping around the cams and valves, no gravel or obviously damaged parts found. There was a little bit of 'crud' that settled out of the oil that was in the filter, but nothing unusual. The oil also smelled faintly of the moly so fairly sure that's the 'glitter' I was seeing.

All that said, the runner for the air filter to the right side of my carb was just sitting on the carb. I suppose it's possible that right runner has been slipping off periodically and I've got trash deeper in the engine despite the carb interior looking pristine.

[Betlog]

Man that sucks Paul. I hope you find the cause soon. Good luck buddy.

[Momaru]

Well, after taking out the screen that's above the oil drain, sure enough there was a little gravel and some broken-off liquid gasket in there (if that's not what the dark strips are in the pic, please let me know!). If you've ever had crud in your oil, probably worth checking the drain screen every so often folks. If you don't know where it is/how to get to it, just le me know.
DSC04866.jpg

I checked the clutch area and it's looking pristine (no 'dings' in the darker areas on the crankcase housing) and the last oil change was 'crud'-free so I don't think the problem's in my crankcase/clutch, which is a MASSIVE relief, assuming I'm right.

After pulling the carbs off, I took a look through the intake section of the engine and sure enough, there were 'dings' in the carbon deposits and there appears to be some gravel on the top of my valves. Goodness knows what's in all the places I can't see. Preparing to take the whole cylinder head off for further inspection, pending arrival of the replacement head gaskets.
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I thought these bikes were supposed to be 'low maintenance'? Guess they didn't figure on an owner with a high Bonehead rating.

[kkim]

Originally Posted by Momaru

After pulling the carbs off, I took a look through the intake section of the engine and sure enough, there were 'dings' in the carbon deposits and there appears to be some gravel on the top of my valves.

Paul, can you take some pictures of the "dings" and the gravel you are seeing?

[Betlog]

Wow Paul, that is crazy. Do you have any idea on how the gravel might have gone in there? Are you the first owner of the bike?

[Momaru]

Here ya go. First two are of the 'dings' or scars, third is some of the fine sand/gravel that's sitting above the intakes.
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The last two are the right and left valves for cylinder #1, respectively (#1 is closer to TDC at the moment). The shots of the valves are a little hard to make out due to the small opening, angle and needing to get light in there, but I did the best I can & circled the area o' interest. It looks more like dirt in the photos, but the texture is more granulated in better light.
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As for how it got there... lots of possibilities. I'm not the first owner, but it's been a (mostly) trouble-free 7,000mi since I got it. I discovered about a hundred pieces of small gravel (ranging from sand-sized to sea-salt grains) in the cam area when I opened it up about 300mi ago for an interim valve check while I was replacing the cam chain guides (and trying to replace the chain, per suggestion of a local shop I won't be returning to). I can only guess the shop I took it to for the 7,500mi checkup didn't clean off the cylinder head cover when they opened it and the gravel sitting on the back side fell in (I don't plan to return to them either). However I don't think these are necessarily related.

The biggest probability is my own stupidity. When I installed the K&N filter with stock runners, I seem to have either not tightened the runners enough or secured them properly as the right runner had worked its way completely off the carb and was just sitting there. How long only the Maker knows. There was a pretty good layer of grime on the runner mount which tells me it'd been like that a while. I suspect that's how this happened, the carb sucking in unfiltered air via the loose runner.

[Betlog]

Man. Well at least you now found the issue. Hopefully it won't cost you much to get her back up and running tip-top again.

[Momaru]

Got the engine at least macro-disassembled last night.
Did get a 'good' pic of the cosmetic result of the rocks in my camshaft area. Note all the bright silver patches I circled.
DSC04909a.jpg

I did notice my cam sprockets seem to have a small notch in the end of each tooth. Anyone remember this from their valve checks? Seems a little odd but it's so regular for both sprockets I'm reasonably sure it's factory. Obviously the teeth are a little worn along the axis of rotation, but I think that's to be expected from 11,000mi
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Unfortunately I lack the proper tools for checking on the valves much themselves, beyond the visual inspection in my previous post. I may just take the cylinder head to a shop and let them do the disassembly/inspection.

No major rocks or obvious (to a non-mechanic) damage to the pistons, etc. Piston heads are definitely a bit nasty, so going to attempt cleaning them up a bit as well as the valves before taking them in.
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Honestly about out of ideas what the noise is and running out of non-crankcase places to check. Blah

[jnumata]

My bike sounds the same during warm-up. I always attributed it to the metal expanding as it warmed up - kind of a tinny sound. Maybe I should have it checked out by the dealer since I'm still under warranty No one else has this issue? Mine kind of sounds like paper fluttering. Maybe I need a valve adjustment. I only have 750 miles.

To follow up, I have done some google searching. Many people have these problems with cycles it appears. This is what I found is most typical although this is from a car article, "If you hear a relatively high pitched or soft ticking coming from the upper part of the engine when you first start your car that goes away shortly after starting you probably have little to worry about. This is especially true if it primarily happens in colder weather. The valves that allow the fuel and air mixture into the engine and the exhaust out are usually operated by hydraulic lifters. These lifters require a certain oil pressure to operate properly. When the car has set for a while the oil drains out of the engine into the oil pan. Until the oil pump builds enough pressure these hydraulic lifters there will be a slight ticking noise. In colder weather it often takes a bit longer for the oil pressure to build making these noises more common."

[Momaru]

Yeah... frankly that's where I've been leaning the last few days, especially since it was only during warm-up and that was during <45F days so the engine was pretty bleedin' cold. As a wrap-up of the project, I never did find anything that seems overly amiss; valves are right in spec when I used the FSM suggested method, no obvious irregular wear on the pistons or valves (despite them being gunky), no big rocks in the valves or oil (despite the find in the screen) and what I can see of the crankcase looks good too. I accept I may have missed something which will cause me issues down the road, but so be it.

Gonna be putting it all back together tonight and hoping dearly this odyssey of frustration has just been as you suggest; differential metal expansion and oil pressure deficits on a cold start. Thanks for posting that James. That said, the way I understand our valves work on the ninjette (and from looking at the construction with the cylinder head off), they're spring-loaded to stay closed and pushed open by the camshaft cams, which are chain-driven, so oil is mostly there for lubrication, not hydraulic power.

On the bright side, it's allowed me to get very much better acquainted with my engine and overcome my trepidation about getting deeper than the valves.

[pb3]

add me to the list. 5k miles on my BLUE '09. never heard it before till this afternoon, and today (45 degrees F) wasn't the coldest it's been started in.

my noise was more evident from the left side (chain side) of the bike. sounded like a leaf was in a blower motor. hit and miss, no pattern to it. but i did believe as the engine was full choked, that the RPM or firing would slightly sumble- leading me to believe something was making contact with the rotating assembly.

another note: right before i noticed the "leaf" noise, i did think there was a low/ loud tap coming from the engine.

as soon as i started to wonder where the leaf noise was coming from the RPMs got up to 4k and i turned off the choke and no more noise. the ride seemed to be powerful. and restart after coffee break didn't net any noise. i did not need to choke (as usual with my 1 hour stops/ breaks).

misc info: oil change 400 miles ago. amsoil 20w50. been in it since 1.8k miles. completely stock (including air filter) bike accept for new tires within the last 200 miles. (i wonder if the sticky goo that holds the sticker to the tire on that first ride threw some rocks up somewhere they shouldn't have been.

i'll keep up with mentions if this occurs again.

[jnumata]

Yep, a leaf in a blower is exactly it. As soon as I am done with the clutch, then the leaf noise goes away. I'll keep everyone posted if I learn anything new.

[Momaru]

Originally Posted by jnumata

Yep, a leaf in a blower is exactly it. As soon as I am done with the clutch, then the leaf noise goes away. I'll keep everyone posted if I learn anything new.

Do you mean choke instead of clutch? Seems like you wouldn't ever really be 'done' with the clutch unless you've mastered the elusive 'clutchless shifting' technique

Thanks for posting up guys. Helping me feel a little less insane, though the last 7 hours spent re-assembling the bike in my living room would indicate I'm still
Edit: Wound up taking 8hrs total reassembly from exposed pistons to ready to ride

Never did find anything obviously wrong other than some dirty bits here & there and the little bit o' crud on my valves. Hoping it was just my baby's way of demanding some more TLC before kicking off the season.

[jnumata]

Ha, you're right. Choke, not clutch. Whoops.

[pb3]

Originally Posted by Momaru

Thanks for posting up guys. Helping me feel a little less insane, though the last 7 hours spent re-assembling the bike in my living room would indicate I'm still

i feel for you!

i will add: bike sat from end of september till march 1st. gas had evaporated(?) from the tank. when i went to first start, i cranked and cranked with it just barely wanting to start- not realizing the gas tank was 1/10 full. so maybe something got sucked in before i added gas.

bike has gone through a tankful before this noise. could it have been crap coming off the valves? or what else mecanically moves when in choke? could that be loose or putting something into the airway?

and, the engine did feel stronger/ faster/ more powerful during the ride after hearing the noise.

[camaroz1985]

I too am a believer that it is just things heating up. Mine did it for a while, but haven't heard it recently. I've ridden in below freezing temperatures this winter, and didn't hear it so I don't think it has to do with the ambient temperature. I was thinking it was the cat heating up in the head pipe, as that is where it seemed to be coming from.

[Momaru]

Originally Posted by pb3

i will add: bike sat from end of september till march 1st. gas had evaporated(?) from the tank. when i went to first start, i cranked and cranked with it just barely wanting to start- not realizing the gas tank was 1/10 full. so maybe something got sucked in before i added gas.

bike has gone through a tankful before this noise. could it have been crap coming off the valves? or what else mecanically moves when in choke? could that be loose or putting something into the airway?

You bring up several good points/ideas but I think I can lay most of 'em to rest (and please me if I'm wrong). I'm becoming more & more a believer it's just the metal flexing and expanding as it warms up from low ambient temps.

You might run some Seafoam thru in your next tank o' gas; may have had some gasoline/ethanol varnish on your carbs. That'll happen easily if there's just a little gas in there (needs to absorb less water to be foulthe gasoline present) or if you didn't drain the bowls, treat with fuel stabilizer and/or fully winterize before putting your bike away. Also how was your battery? I've been told a weak/depleted battery will sometimes sound 'normal' but doesn't have enough to get the bike to actually start (as opposed to the 'rurr' sound of a weak car battery).

Possible it was some crud on the valves, but doubtful. It'd have had to get thru the air filter (stock or otherwise) and not stuck in the carbs to even make it to the valves. And all of the fuel that you'd run through went past those same valves; seems odd it'd take a tank o' gas to loosen it up if it was there. Only reason I was thinking valves in my case is the air filter had come off its mount.

IIRC, the choke basically pulls aside a pin in each carb opening up increased fuel flow to the engine. It's definitely putting something into the airway; more fuel. I did notice the noise mostly when I had the choke on as well, but think that's more because the bike was still really cold than a fuel issue. If you think you've got junk in the carbs, it's not too much a hassle to clean 'em.

Originally Posted by pb3

the engine did feel stronger/ faster/ more powerful during the ride after hearing the noise.

Not sure here, but a couple ideas. You might've been clearing out the varnish in your fuel system. Also may have been simply been that you got used to a reduced performance due to a cold engine which felt stronger as it worked its way to a good operating temp.

Originally Posted by camaroz1985

I was thinking it was the cat heating up in the head pipe, as that is where it seemed to be coming from.

Quite possible. Not in my case though, don't even have a cat in the head pipe (she was very curious about it though ) due to a full AreaP being in place of the stock exhaust. However I did notice the sound first after having removed the exhaust headers for a coating with VHT flame-proof header paint. There were lots of sounds and smells coming while the paint hear-cured so I ignored them all until the curing process was done.

[Rayme]

My engine does a tick sounds something when warming up (specially when its rpm is low and its sputtering with the choke on). I realized that last summer and didn't think of anything about it, ran several tousand miles on it and the engine is still working like a champ..sounds like just a design thing we all have?

[pb3]

Originally Posted by Momaru

Also how was your battery? I've been told a weak/depleted battery will sometimes sound 'normal' but doesn't have enough to get the bike to actually start (as opposed to the 'rurr' sound of a weak car battery).

no, the battery was out of the bike on a maintainer. when i mean barely wanted to start, i mean like a sputter here and there, like it was out of gas. and it was!! i know i know, even had the fuel guage showing Empty.

so here's my latest guess: ICE in the oil. i've read previous posts about condensation. i know for my situation yesterday it was at least 45 in the garage yet with the cold cement floor, and concrete walls... but, could something have happened to form an ice cube in the crankcase, and what we hear is the ice grinding on the teeth/ splines of the oil pump? that would explain why i heard a distinct change in the idle- like something was interfering with the rotating assembly, at the moments the "leaf" was heard.

[Racer x]

I am coming in late but from what I see and hear .Everything looks normal. Those "dings" i the intake and the patches under the valve cove look perfectly normal to me.

I do see a lot of carbon buildup . Maybe sea foam or rev th engine more. But the inside looks good.

My theory is some one took off the valve cover without cleaning around it . Stuck it back on and left all the dirt and silicone inside . They probably did not do much else.

Congrats on diving in . Feels good riding a bike you know inside and out.

[Momaru]

Originally Posted by Racer x

I am coming in late but from what I see and hear .Everything looks normal. Those "dings" i the intake and the patches under the valve cove look perfectly normal to me.

I do see a lot of carbon buildup . Maybe sea foam or rev th engine more. But the inside looks good.

My theory is some one took off the valve cover without cleaning around it . Stuck it back on and left all the dirt and silicone inside . They probably did not do much else.

Congrats on diving in . Feels good riding a bike you know inside and out.

Thanks much for the input Eric! I definitely agree, it's quite satisfying riding a bike I've come to know all the way through. And I feel more confident going in there if I need to again. Now if I only had a week where I didn't need my truck for work to do the same to it...

Was hoping to get someone that's been 'in' their engine pretty deep (as I suspect you have )to take a look at this. Good to know the 'dings' are normal; guess it's just sections of carbon buildup chipping off every so often?

I'm definitely guilty of not enough RPM, especially over the winter months.
Definitely agree about the un-cleaned valve cover, I'm 95% sure that's what happened. In retrospect, I should've given it a serious cleaning before taking it to the shop the one time I did, but hindsight's a great thing. One more reason to do all one's own work when at all possible.

Bike's running fine after reassembly, so continuing to lean towards the 'metal expansion' theory. Until proven otherwise, that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

[subxero]

My bike is very new, got it 3 weeks ago, 160 miles on it and i noticed this sound couple days ago again only upon early morning warm up.

~50 degrees F

only hear it with choke on or throttle, when warming up

but again after it warms up, ~4 min nothing. And if it is not cold out, no sound either.

I kept telling myself it is just oil pressure building and warm up sounds but made me very nervous regardless and have been thinking about taking it in to get looked at.

Only thing i did to my bike was changed the oil at 60miles. I used a 20w-50 motorcycle non synthetic cuz it was the one i liked most that they had in stock at the store and planned on changing oil again at 250miles so figured it would be fine for a bit. Not saying the oil is the problem but i am definitely going to Repsol 10w-40 and sticking with it from here on out.

definitely going to do some more research on it

[Momaru]

For what it's worth, I wound up swapping out my exhaust system (again) earlier this summer due to a track crash. After getting it installed, I've heard the same noise a couple times on crisp mornings, but as with you, it only happens when the bike's stone cold and have heard it several times recently as fall sets in. I'm quite sure (after another 12,000mi on the engine) that what I'd been hearing then and recently is just some expansion of joints that haven't completely 'settled'.

And THANK YOU for searching around vs starting a new thread. You've no idea how glad I am to see an old thread searched up

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by subxero

My bike is very new, got it 3 weeks ago, 160 miles on it and i noticed this sound couple days ago again only upon early morning warm up.

~50 degrees F

only hear it with choke on or throttle, when warming up

but again after it warms up, ~4 min nothing. And if it is not cold out, no sound either.

I kept telling myself it is just oil pressure building and warm up sounds but made me very nervous regardless and have been thinking about taking it in to get looked at.

Only thing i did to my bike was changed the oil at 60miles. I used a 20w-50 motorcycle non synthetic cuz it was the one i liked most that they had in stock at the store and planned on changing oil again at 250miles so figured it would be fine for a bit. Not saying the oil is the problem but i am definitely going to Repsol 10w-40 and sticking with it from here on out.

definitely going to do some more research on it

20w-50 oil is a problem. put in the correct oil asap. you can damage the engine running the wrong oil thickness.

[subxero]

Originally Posted by alex.s

20w-50 oil is a problem. put in the correct oil asap. you can damage the engine running the wrong oil thickness.

it's listed in the manual? and temp outside is still in oil rating range?

why do you say it is a problem?

[alex.s]

meh then run 20w50

[subxero]

Originally Posted by alex.s

meh then run 20w50

I plan on switching to 10w-40 from here on out, but when i went to the store to pick up oil, they did not have an good 10w-40 motorcycle non synthetic, i i figured i would run the 20w-50 for a few miles till my next change and it shouldn't be a problem cuz it was listed in the manual, should i not trust the manuel?

As much as i hope and think it is just warming up sounds, i am still nervous about it as i am not familiar with those kind of sounds and i don't feel they it should be making them but then my knowledge of 4 stroke motorcycle engines is pretty minimal.

i guess i could change the oil and filter again, i guess it wouldn't hurt anything, better safe than sorry. I, i have found a few other posts in other forums about similar sounds, no one seemed overly concerned, but surprised i have not found more posts with similar reports and concerns if it is a common warming up symptom

[subxero]

here is a link to a great video that shows what is going on here if anyone is interested, not sure if it is what other people were describing or not but similar to my "issue"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOSdIqpLXZo

[subxero]

was doing more research and lots of people saying cam chain tensioner, anyone have thoughts on this?

I guess i could remove it clean it, grease it and put it back in to see if it changes anything

[alex.s]

personally i think the clack clacking is coming from the exhaust side cam chain guide... it just sits down there unsecured... rattling around when the cam chain turns.