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Old March 29th, 2023, 01:18 PM   #41
Bob KellyIII
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I'ed leave them out myself because stock didn't have them in there for a reason
on my 2012 Ninja the only Mod to the bike is a muffler and a fender eliminator
other than that she is totally stock.... however I think the previous owner added a jet kit to it and I may well take that out and go back to stock because it is running way too rich right now.
...the stock air cleaner works quite well but the stock muffler is a boat anchor and just needs to be replaced for something lighter and with better flow
....
all in all the little Ninja is a Marvel of engineering... she has plenty of power for this old man so I see no need to Hop it Up...
with the final drive gearing I put on it it cruises at 70+ MPH with no trouble
and is capable of tripple didgets on the spedo if conditions are right
that's plenty fast enough ! but to do that I had to install a 16T front sprocket on it. that changed the bike considerably I no longer had to shift 3 times before I reached 30 mph ....to me it feels like it was always meant to be
....
However the Ninja comes with some trade-offs..... it is by far one of the hardest bikes to work on I have ever owned. and I have owned over 70 in the past.... so many I have lost count !HAHAHA.
....
the problem with shimming the jet needle in my view is this.. as the slide goes up it lets in air and the needle jet lets in the fuel they are designed to let in a certain fuel/air ratio..... if you shim the jet needle you change that fuel/air ratio.... that is fine if it is running too lean to begin with but not so good if it is already burning just right.... you'll ruin the burn !
if the spark plugs look too lean then I would say yes to the shims
if they look to be on the lean side of perfect I would say leave it alone !
getting the jetting just right is a tricky business.... some call it Voodoo ! because it's a mixture of skill and luck and providence ! and a whole lot of patience !..... that makes it hard enough on any bike but on the Ninja that is so hard to work on.... well you get the picture....
..... that's my 2 cents !
good luck
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Old March 29th, 2023, 01:33 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII View Post
I'ed leave them out myself because stock didn't have them in there for a reason
on my 2012 Ninja the only Mod to the bike is a muffler and a fender eliminator
other than that she is totally stock.... however I think the previous owner added a jet kit to it and I may well take that out and go back to stock because it is running way too rich right now.
...the stock air cleaner works quite well but the stock muffler is a boat anchor and just needs to be replaced for something lighter and with better flow
....
all in all the little Ninja is a Marvel of engineering... she has plenty of power for this old man so I see no need to Hop it Up...
with the final drive gearing I put on it it cruises at 70+ MPH with no trouble
and is capable of tripple didgets on the spedo if conditions are right
that's plenty fast enough ! but to do that I had to install a 16T front sprocket on it. that changed the bike considerably I no longer had to shift 3 times before I reached 30 mph ....to me it feels like it was always meant to be
....
However the Ninja comes with some trade-offs..... it is by far one of the hardest bikes to work on I have ever owned. and I have owned over 70 in the past.... so many I have lost count !HAHAHA.
....
the problem with shimming the jet needle in my view is this.. as the slide goes up it lets in air and the needle jet lets in the fuel they are designed to let in a certain fuel/air ratio..... if you shim the jet needle you change that fuel/air ratio.... that is fine if it is running too lean to begin with but not so good if it is already burning just right.... you'll ruin the burn !
if the spark plugs look too lean then I would say yes to the shims
if they look to be on the lean side of perfect I would say leave it alone !
getting the jetting just right is a tricky business.... some call it Voodoo ! because it's a mixture of skill and luck and providence ! and a whole lot of patience !..... that makes it hard enough on any bike but on the Ninja that is so hard to work on.... well you get the picture....
..... that's my 2 cents !
good luck
Bob.....

Makes sense and thanks for the explanation very helpful. I'll leave the shims out mess around with Gordon's gap ideas with the plugs and see how it goes.

I swapped to a 15t for this season pretty excited to try it, once I get this rev thing figured out.

I love my little Ninjas I'm never lettings them leave my stable. Even hope to teach my boys how to ride on them once they are old enough.

It's good to hear the Ninja is the hardest bike you have ever worked on. I spent all winter taking every part off my two bikes for a restoration and upgrades/mods, except the engine that stayed.

I should be top shelf if I work on a different bike.
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Old March 29th, 2023, 02:12 PM   #43
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When I assembled the carb should I put back the .60mm of shims?

Triple Jim you said they were not needed with a properly running carb. Everyone here speaks of washers under the needles as the magic pill to solve the lean spot.

Thoughts?
Since I got my carbs back from Ducatiman, they do not need shims, and there is no lean spot. Stock jetting tends to be a little on the rich side, at least the main jets. On long rides without a lot of hot rodding, I get close to 70 mpg. Shimming needles will drop that quickly.

The lean spot develops over time if deposits start forming. Often a buyer of a used 250 will find the needles shimmed and the idle screws way open, in an attempt by the previous owner to make up for partially clogged carbs.

Last futzed with by Triple Jim; March 29th, 2023 at 03:34 PM.
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Old March 29th, 2023, 02:23 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple Jim View Post
Since I got my carbs back from Ducatiman, they do not need shims, and there is no lean spot. Stock jetting tends to be a little on the rich side, at least the main jets. On long rides without a lot of hot rodding, I get close to 70 mpg. Shimming needles will drop that quickly.

The lean spot develops over time if deposits start forming. Often a buyer of a used 250 will find needle shims and idle screws way open, in an attempt by the previous owner to make up for partially clogged carbs.
That's definitely good to know, definitely going to leave them out, and shoot for perfect running.. Plus less variables for troubleshooting while getting these bikes back on the road.

Pressure is on at home, got the talk....are you sure you know what you are doing with the bikes from the gf. The Motorcycle mechanic in me died a little, lol

All in now haha
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Old March 29th, 2023, 02:25 PM   #45
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Really she is politely telling me to get her bike sorted so she can ride because we've had some nice days so far.
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Old March 29th, 2023, 03:02 PM   #46
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just had another thought.....Jay, you've confirmed the presence of ALL needle jets on your carbs? Each carb has one, installed under the emulsion tube and have a weird way of "going missing" (aka falling out) when carbs are apart. They stick up into the air stream, presence can be confirmed visually, without disassembly from the airbox side looking in. I'd suggest a looksee...just to be absolutely sure.
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Old March 29th, 2023, 05:24 PM   #47
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Hay Jay ! I just had a thought..... I just re read my posts on getting my bikes back up to snuff after winter, and it refreshed my memory on what I found on the Ninja after installing the carbs.... I got it running and Idling real good taking throttle but it would not rev higher than 4~5K and it was missing up at that RPM.....
the next day I played with the air screws and turned them out about 1/2 a turn
and the bike would then Rev to 9K+ with no problem
so I am thinking ...if you set the airscrews to factory specks that may well be the problem..... my bike refused to rev past 4k but after turning out the air screw it reved fine..... super weird I know but that is what it did....
I then adjusted the airscrews on both carbs properly and it went back to flat topping at 4K
I haven't messed with it sense.... maybe the answer is simply turn out the airscrews 1/2 turn eh ?
...
the air screw setting is working all the time, the gas is being sucked into the cylinder from the airscrew no matter what the RPM
so it stands to reason that it would effect the Higher RPM area if it was set too lean....

.... it's a thought !
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Old March 30th, 2023, 04:58 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII View Post
Hay Jay ! I just had a thought..... I just re read my posts on getting my bikes back up to snuff after winter, and it refreshed my memory on what I found on the Ninja after installing the carbs.... I got it running and Idling real good taking throttle but it would not rev higher than 4~5K and it was missing up at that RPM.....
the next day I played with the air screws and turned them out about 1/2 a turn
and the bike would then Rev to 9K+ with no problem
so I am thinking ...if you set the airscrews to factory specks that may well be the problem..... my bike refused to rev past 4k but after turning out the air screw it reved fine..... super weird I know but that is what it did....
I then adjusted the airscrews on both carbs properly and it went back to flat topping at 4K
I haven't messed with it sense.... maybe the answer is simply turn out the airscrews 1/2 turn eh ?
...
the air screw setting is working all the time, the gas is being sucked into the cylinder from the airscrew no matter what the RPM
so it stands to reason that it would effect the Higher RPM area if it was set too lean....

.... it's a thought !
Bob........
Definitely tried tuning those screws and could not get past the wall.

I think Jim called it right away with this being a fuel delivery problem with the carb.

I was cleaning the pilot jets and saw what looked to be a mesh screen, though I was crazy but others have seen it. I think it's the light from the emulsion tube.

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=62024

I've ordered new stock oem jets to rule out any bad cleaning tools being used by previous owners. Someone at some point put some torque on the pilot jets with the wrong size screw driver and the slots are a bit spun out for my liking.

I've changed up my cleaning technique this time around.

Still soak in the dip, air, wire,ultrasonic wash, air, then wiring every hole and passage but I've added a low pressure fluid flush to all passages in both directions so that I can prove proper flow.

I'm comparing both carbs to each other for my baseline. When they have a matching good fluid flow and compressed air flow passage is clean.

I'm using a needle tip squeeze bottle I have from Amazon it's perfect for this.

Fluids used for flushing, I've used techron and hoppes number 9. I like that they both flow but thick enough to stick on passage walls. Both found some gunk during flushing. I'm hoping that's the smoking gun and I can publicly eat some crow and join the "I've cleaned my carbs and they are perfect club"

Once flushing is complete I dunk and flow distilled water then blow out with air.

Going to flush with carb cleaner today just to remove any chemicals left behind that the water flush didn't get.

I'll keep you posted waiting on the jets to arrive.
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Old March 30th, 2023, 11:32 AM   #49
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During carb assembly are there any parts that need lubrication?

And if so what do you use?
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Old March 30th, 2023, 01:24 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatiman View Post
just had another thought.....Jay, you've confirmed the presence of ALL needle jets on your carbs? Each carb has one, installed under the emulsion tube and have a weird way of "going missing" (aka falling out) when carbs are apart. They stick up into the air stream, presence can be confirmed visually, without disassembly from the airbox side looking in. I'd suggest a looksee...just to be absolutely sure.
Yes accounted for. Thanks for checking!
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Old March 30th, 2023, 01:30 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Shafer View Post
During carb assembly are there any parts that need lubrication?

And if so what do you use?
a tiny shot of WD40 on each end of choke and throttle shafts will do no harm
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Old March 30th, 2023, 01:35 PM   #52
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a tiny shot of WD40 on each end of choke and throttle shafts will do no harm
Great thanks. Would you recommend anything on the choke slide washers?
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Old March 30th, 2023, 02:18 PM   #53
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^ not necessary, IMHO
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Old March 30th, 2023, 02:25 PM   #54
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^ not necessary, IMHO
Great. Thanks!
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Old March 31st, 2023, 06:36 PM   #55
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Hay Jay did you try replacing the sparkplugs yet ?
....
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Old April 1st, 2023, 03:36 AM   #56
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Fresh ones gapped correct no change on black.

Carbs parts come Monday. I'll start rebuilding blues carb and if that's the smoking gun I'll split and clean blacks carb.

Did a spark test on black had really nice blue spark and was able to ark a blue spark a inch back to the block. Both sides perfect. Those iridium plugs really put on a nice lightning show.
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Old April 1st, 2023, 04:46 AM   #57
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Well, Rats ! I was hoping that would do it.... the only thing it can be is carbs
..... i just hope plugs cures mine ! LOL
....
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Old April 1st, 2023, 04:56 AM   #58
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If I have time I'm going to grab a propane touch and see if I can find a leak somewhere on the airbox/carb boot side. Can't find it with starter fluid.

I'll try revvvvvving when looking for leaks haven't done that yet.

I've got spark

I've got fuel. I can get it to run nice on both cylinders and I've wet tested the plugs.

Working on confirming air.....

I cleaned and split the air box this winter, gasket looked good and I reassembled with the gasket and all screws are tight.

Pretty much trying to keep busy when waiting on parts.
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Old April 1st, 2023, 03:23 PM   #59
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Santa came early and I have my carb parts.

One think I did different this assembly was install the needle jet through the passage, helps to follow the service manual. Before I installed it through the carb mouth. Hoping that's the smoking gun.

Question does the plunger look correct to you? Should the plunger end of the choke have that space?

Slide is smooth and snaps back and I can see the plunger seal the hole under the diaphragm.

0E308C08-E91F-4A8F-8925-46FD8359E529.jpg

9664DBCE-329E-48C6-86B0-712368189E7C.jpg

55731C5B-BF36-4F24-BE9D-039D661A9488.jpg
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Old April 1st, 2023, 03:45 PM   #60
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I think I have the needle jet correct now.

6675A3B0-D8E3-425D-9385-C525F4E2C6FF.jpg
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Old April 1st, 2023, 04:11 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shafer View Post

Question does the plunger look correct to you? Should the plunger end of the choke have that space?

One think I did different this assembly was install the needle jet through the passage, helps to follow the service manual. Before I installed it through the carb mouth. Hoping that's the smoking gun.
choke plunger is fine, installed correctly

needle jet installation, if anything other than "to the book" will result in catastrophic result. I'd agree and guess thats your smoking gun, alright.
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Old April 1st, 2023, 04:14 PM   #62
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choke plunger is fine, installed correctly

needle jet installation, if anything other than "to the book" will result in catastrophic result. I'd agree and guess thats your smoking gun, alright.
I'm hoping so. Thanks for your reply. I'll keep on building and let you know how I make out.
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Old April 1st, 2023, 05:13 PM   #63
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I am assuming that you guys are refiring to the small piece that sits on top of the emulsifier tube under the main jet.... that will only go in correctly one way
it has to sit proud of the throat body quite a bit.... i didn't know it could be assembled incorrectly ! i think there is a pin in there so that little collar has to line up and sort'a lock on to it if memory serves me correctly , and then the emulsifier tube comes down and locks it in position permanently and then the main jet goes on top of that... the Picture you showed Jay looks correct to me
it does stick up into the tube quite a bit and then the jet needle goes down into it... it's really hard to say for me as I have a thousand different carbs in my head all fighting assembly directions.... in my head it has to look right
before I continue...and 99.9% of the carbs will only go together the right way that is their only saving grace !
did you notice the orientation of the collar as Ducattiman was inserting it in his photo ? it has to be that direction to enable it to protrude into the throat of the carb. good work Gordon !
so check those parts and make sure they wern't bent in the last assembly !
cranking down the emulsifier tube could easily bend that collar if it was upside down...

....
keep after it ! You'll get it !
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Old April 1st, 2023, 05:29 PM   #64
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actually, overtorqing the emulsifier tube will actually bend the tube prior to destroying the needle jet. Note fine imperfections on the ends in pic, direct result of over tightening. As i remember, the associated needle jets were perfectly fine.
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Old April 1st, 2023, 05:39 PM   #65
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Yep those are definitely Toast ! ... I have strong hands so I have to be careful in carbs I can snap off jets and brass stuff fairly easy !
good and snug no tighter half that if your using a wrench on the emulsifier tube... snug is all you need.
that is why I always sprey WD-40 in the carb before I start taking out the jets and stuff they have a tendency to be stuck in there. especially that pilot jet!
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Old April 1st, 2023, 05:48 PM   #66
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This winter I install the needle jet tube through the throat of the carb with needle nose pliers, so that was completely wrong. Not down the tube that the main jet screws into.
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Old April 1st, 2023, 06:24 PM   #67
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Ahhh ok... that may well be the problem as the whole main jet and emulsifier tube would not be seated correctly....
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Old April 1st, 2023, 06:30 PM   #68
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This winter I install the needle jet tube through the throat of the carb with needle nose pliers, so that was completely wrong. Not down the tube that the main jet screws into.
I've had quite a few carbsets shipped to me in the above condition. Frankly, the mark of un-pro hands in them. Another is the needles installed through the top of the white spring holder, rather than below, directly into the slide. Both are signs of folks inside of carbs who shouldn't be.
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Old April 1st, 2023, 10:36 PM   #69
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But.... there is only one way to learn ...it's not like you can take a course on repairing the Ninja 250 carbs or anything like that... you are forced to either take it back to the dealer or do it yourself and most people don't have the extra cash so they attempt to do it themselves...and rightly so the problem is they are very complicated and need special attention if they don't have good drawings or instructions to put them back together correctly then the internet is their best choice.... I've been into more carburetors than I can count... I've even destroyed a few and I admit that but I have saved thousands in the process, and I'll have to admit the ninja 250 carbs are one of the hardest I've ever been into.... the easiest is probably the triumph carbs . the Amil carbs are the simplest carb around but they were designed wrong you cannot take the pilot jet out... I wound up buying carbs for my triumph that had removable pilot jets and have not regretted it once.... it seems like todays gasoline has a bunch of "floatie goodies in it" that effect the pilot circuits on all bikes
how they get past fuel filters is unknown to me, but they do I guess the particles get past the filters and then expand in the float bowl if it sits a long time and is re started with old gas in the bowl so draining the bowls is a darn good idea , after sitting !!!! just to flush the old stuff out if nothing else
the gas now days is the main problem ...being attentive to it will save alot of work. Good inline filters is key now days...
....
it's true if you don't have any idea what your doing in a bikes carb you shouldn't be doing it !... but you have to learn somewhere , and I do not recommend taking it to a bike shop ...do it yourself and learn ! because half the mechanics working in bike shops have never worked on a bike like that before yet alone the carburetors ... your chances of them fixing the problem on a Ninja 250 is MININAL .....if it's not a Kawasaki dealer chances are
a Honda mechanic will not fix it right ! ....yes I am skeptical !
just because it's a motorcycle does not mean a motorcycle mechanic knows everything about it.... ....Myself I would not touch a 1200cc Ninja as I would only screw it up badly.... and there are dozens of bikes out there that fit into that same area.... I would be foolish to attempt to tune a V-Rod my knowledge on the ninja mainly comes from this forum and years of messing with bikes in general.... but bikes are becoming specialized, with specialized knowledge needed to work on them....it's not like it was in the 1970's any more....
....
it's also true most guys with a mechanical back ground can fumble their way through a motorcycle and keep it running and operating good....
however one scrap of knowledge that is unknown to him can be disastrous.
....
....
Bob.
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Old April 2nd, 2023, 10:54 AM   #70
Shafer
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That was the fix for blue. Haven't had much time this weekend but I put the carb in warmed it up a little and was able do a quick rev past the wall.

I'm definitely not an expert but it's issues like this that I learn the most from and value the time and knowledge that members of this community give to help.

I learned all about troubleshooting the ignition and learned way more about carburetor operation, tuning and cleaning than I knew before.

I do a lot of research and usually follow directions, but in the end I made a mistake, but I was determined to figure out what it was and I think that's got to count for something.


My goal is to pass these bikes onto my kids some day, and learning how to take care of them, troubleshoot and repair is important to me. Skills I am trying to pass onto the kids as they have done a lot of work on the bikes this winter as well.

I'll have a more through summary on the end result later next week and an update about black after I service it's carb.

Thanks again everyone for all your help, I truly appreciate it!
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Old April 2nd, 2023, 11:22 AM   #71
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That is fantastic news Now lets see if black does the same !
your Persistence got them running again ! Congratulations on a job well done!
....
Bob........
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Old April 2nd, 2023, 11:39 AM   #72
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ditto's, glad you fixed, 1 down, 1 to go
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Old April 4th, 2023, 04:27 AM   #73
Shafer
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So black is good to go. Rode her yesterday and it's running great.

Here's a picture of my mistake, quite embarrassing but gained a lot of knowledge from that mistake.

IMG_7340.jpg

Thanks for everyones help and sticking with me with suggestions during my journey.

Quick question: I'm now working on dialing in my mixture screws. I'd like to try the one cylinder at a time method.

Do I start the bike then pull the spark plug wire?

Reason I ask is I rode around for 40 mins getting up to operating temp. Shut the bike off pulled the right side cap lead and I couldn't get the bike to start.
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Old April 4th, 2023, 05:29 AM   #74
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I've never run mine on one cylinder to set the idle mixture screws, but disconnecting the plug while the engine is not running is the way to do it. I find that setting the idle screws for highest RPM is easy enough by watching the tach while both cylinders are firing.

If you do run it on one, for the sake of the spark coil, connect a spare plug and lay it on something grounded, rather than letting the plug cap arc to something an inch away.
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Old April 4th, 2023, 05:31 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple Jim View Post
I've never tried to run mine on one cylinder, but disconnecting the plug while the engine is not running is the way to do it. I find that setting the idle screws for highest RPM is easy enough by watching the tach while both cylinders are firing.

If you do run it on one, for the sake of the spark coil, connect a spare plug and lay it on something grounded, rather than letting the plug cap arc to something an inch away.
Good to know. Might stick to the traditional method, just want to start riding.
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Old April 4th, 2023, 08:06 AM   #76
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I have done both methods, but I like just doing both while it is running on 2
.... easier and less chance of frying a coil... I 2nd Jim's sujestion of not letting the plug lead dangle... put a plug in it and ground it or you'll fry the coil.
....
when I did mine last time I had no trouble hearing the change in RPM on either cylinder.... I went to the extra expense and bought a 90 deg. screw driver to make it easier.... but it only worked in an iffy fashion seems holding the one end up into the screw is needed and the other hand is needed to turn the handle.... so your hand needs to be in there on a warm/hot engine anyway.
the stubby screw drivers work just about as good to be honest... but you gott'a make them fit their too wide to go in the hole .
highest Idle and then a touch to the rich side and your in like flynn !
(easiest to hear the changes when the idle is below 1000RPM)
....
Immediately check throttle response and make sure it is as expected.... too lean will cause the idle to hang a bit, too rich will make it slower on acceleration like it misses a stroke and then picks it up....
if you get it right it will be instantaneous... grabbing the RPM as fast as you turn the throttle.... it really is surprising !!!!
....
glad to hear you solved the problem Well Done !
....
Bob...
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Old April 4th, 2023, 02:37 PM   #77
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Thanks for the tuning info. I took my time with the bikes and you are not kidding when you dail them in they rip.

Went for a ride tonight with the little lady both black and blue are better than ever.

Thanks again for everyones help!!!!

Have a safe riding season!
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Old April 5th, 2023, 07:20 PM   #78
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Glad you got them running!
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Old April 6th, 2023, 01:15 AM   #79
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Glad you got them running!
Thanks! Just in time for the warm weather.
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