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Old February 19th, 2012, 09:13 PM   #1
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MOTM - Apr '13
Cool So, I got pulled over for lane sharing, again

This time on the freeway! Ok so to start, I was heading home going my usual ridiculous speed lane splitting past cars. I pass a car that looks like a regular car but when I get next to it, I can see its a cop car, but with no lights or siren. Obviously I'm going over the speed limit and he could technically pull me over for speeding so I slow down without passing him. I wasn't sure if he would be able to pull me over since he didn't have any sirens, but I decided I wouldn't give him the chance and took an alternate freeway route home.

This time I'm heading down 101 and moved over to the right lanes so I could get onto another junction. As I'm heading toward the junction I see flashing lights behind me and I thought it was an ambulance so I move to the right but he's still following me so I figured it must be a cop (seemed like a cop van or SUV, but I'm not sure). I stop he comes up asks for my license registration and insurance. He asked if I had seen him and I said no (I didn't split past this guy, not sure how or where he saw me) He then tells me he saw me speeding and lane splitting (though he doesn't have a radar gun so can't prove I'm speeding???) Anyway, he tells me the maximum legal speed limit to lane split is 35mph (is this true? Isn't it just not even on the books?) He told me he could give me a citation for a moving violation for illegally passing (think I could beat that in court?) but says that he won't give me a citation. Yippee.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 09:22 PM   #2
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Sounds like you might have to start driving a little smarter, pulled over twice in not even 1 month! Glad you got away with nothing though

Was he being a dick? Or legitimate?
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Old February 19th, 2012, 09:27 PM   #3
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I'm curious - can anybody verify or reject that officer's claims? It wouldn't be the first time an officer started talking out of their a$$ to feel like a big man.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 09:42 PM   #4
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MOTM - Apr '13
Quote:
Originally Posted by gilmorec61 View Post
Sounds like you might have to start driving a little smarter, pulled over twice in not even 1 month! Glad you got away with nothing though

Was he being a dick? Or legitimate?
His attitude was, "I don't want to clean your brains off my highway" lol

Maybe I do need to ride smarter, but the worst I'm really doing is speeding, right?
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Old February 19th, 2012, 10:01 PM   #5
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Old February 19th, 2012, 10:14 PM   #6
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There's no rule, law, or even printed guideline that states the 35 mph he said to you. It's completely up to the officer's discretion on what is "safe". Good on you for passing the attitude test, and avoiding a ticket.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 10:25 PM   #7
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Quote:
His attitude was, "I don't want to clean your brains off my highway" lol

Maybe I do need to ride smarter, but the worst I'm really doing is speeding, right?
Well at least he wasn't being too pushy about it. But yeah, thats very true, maybe you need to get a radar detector so you'll know when to slow down
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Old February 19th, 2012, 10:48 PM   #8
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MOTM - Apr '13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex View Post
There's no rule, law, or even printed guideline that states the 35 mph he said to you. It's completely up to the officer's discretion on what is "safe". Good on you for passing the attitude test, and avoiding a ticket.
So do you think I could have been given a ticket for illegally passing? It's not like I ever crossed a solid line and lane sharing is not illegally passing. I feel like the only thing I was really doing wrong was speeding.

I wasn't racing past cars just doing my typical 5mph faster than them on my 250.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 11:25 PM   #9
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Anything's possible. If you crossed a lane marker without signaling, or were speeding, of course he would have been able to ticket you if he so chose. That said, if you're lane splitting while going faster than the speed limit, you're taking some pretty significant risks aside from the potential tickets.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 11:34 PM   #10
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The law is written very openly its something like "only aloud in a safe matter" which is no more then 10mph over the flow of traffic
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Old February 19th, 2012, 11:35 PM   #11
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No, it's not. There is no law that is written about it. The only thing in print are some guidelines in the motorcycle handbook, but they have zero bearing on what is considered "legal".
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Old February 20th, 2012, 12:04 AM   #12
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MOTM - Apr '13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex View Post
Anything's possible. If you crossed a lane marker without signaling, or were speeding, of course he would have been able to ticket you if he so chose. That said, if you're lane splitting while going faster than the speed limit, you're taking some pretty significant risks aside from the potential tickets.
Yea, I understand I am taking more risks. I do try to be as safe as I can while engaging in this inherently unsafe activity. I watch what I call the 'demeanor' of a car and try to anticipate what they will do on the road. I'm also only actually lane sharing when between 2 cars and it wouldn't be possible for them to switch lanes. The rest of the time I switch lanes to move around the cars. I ride and drive with a strategy, something my brother makes fun of me for. It's something I've done since I started driving and comes naturally to me. When I'm on the road I know what cars are around me, how fast they are going, where I can move if I need to. I see the cars whose drivers are distracted and anticipate people changing lanes before they do by watching their driving habits.

These are habits that I naturally adopted when I learned to drive and now that I am on a motorcycle with no distractions like radio, ac, etc, I feel these habits have developed even more causing me to be a more aware and safer (don't laugh) rider. Though I'm engaging in a more risky activity I feel safe doing it because I make it safe for myself, if that makes any sense. When I feel unsafe doing something, I stop doing it. I never outride my own limits.

The lane marker thing I didn't think of, I guess technically without signaling and changing lanes is a moving violation. I might adapt signaling more significantly into my riding. If I get a ticket for speeding then so be it, I know I'm eligible for it anytime I go over 70.
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Old February 20th, 2012, 12:09 AM   #13
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I think what Kevin is referring to is that, on the official CHP website, they state in their FAQs:

Quote:
Originally Posted by www.chp.ca.gov
Can motorcycle riders "split" lanes and ride between other vehicles?
Lane splitting by motorcycles is permissible but must be done in a safe and prudent manner.
Obviously not an official law, but it is highway patrol explicitly stating in writing that it is technically an acceptable practice. But yeah, I'm sure if they have it out for you, they won't have any trouble coming up with the right phrasing so that whatever you were doing can count as an actual ticketable offense
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Old February 20th, 2012, 12:13 AM   #14
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Right - it's completely gray. There's nothing anywhere that says or implies:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin2109 View Post
which is no more then 10mph over the flow of traffic
Jiggles - if you're splitting cars at 70 mph, you're underestimating the risks you are taking, and overestimating your capabilities to minimize them.
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Old February 20th, 2012, 12:26 AM   #15
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On another note. Jiggles, that unmarked cop car does have lights and sirens. They just aren't visible. In fact the sirens on regular cop cars aren't visible either, since on both cars they are usually in the front behind the grill. As for the lights they are usually thin light bars behind the darkened windows and behind the grill. I've had to find that out both the hard and easy ways.

Also you never quite know what car will be an unmarked cop car. In Orlando I have seen two I never would have expected. One was a Pontiac Grand Prix that I believe was a greenish color and had the hidden lights and such. The other was a white Ford Explorer or Expedition, I don't remember which now that also had the hidden lights in the windows.
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Old February 20th, 2012, 12:39 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex View Post
Jiggles - if you're splitting cars at 70 mph, you're underestimating the risks you are taking, and overestimating your capabilities to minimize them.
Exactly what I am thinking. Lane splitting seems so utterly dangerous. You know how many people dont know how to signal a lane change and dont know how to check their rear view? About 95%. I consider myself to be a very good driver, yet I still get surprised when a bike unexpectedly lane splits right next to me.
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Old February 20th, 2012, 12:41 AM   #17
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MOTM - Apr '13
Alex, I'm not trying to discount your advice, you are a cool headed individual with heart felt responses to those in need and I do hold your opinions in high regard. I just don't feel like I am being unsafe. Maybe it's because I have a different outlook on life than you; I don't have kids nor anyone that depends on me, maybe my personal safety just isn't as important to me as yours is to you. I'm a 21 year old know it all and I think I understand everything about everything even though I know I don't (I do).

I appreciate you looking out for me and though I probably won't change my riding habits you do have me seriously considering the way I ride. Perhaps one day I will be enlightened , or a hood ornament
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Old February 20th, 2012, 12:44 AM   #18
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MOTM - Apr '13
Quote:
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On another note. Jiggles, that unmarked cop car does have lights and sirens. They just aren't visible. In fact the sirens on regular cop cars aren't visible either, since on both cars they are usually in the front behind the grill. As for the lights they are usually thin light bars behind the darkened windows and behind the grill. I've had to find that out both the hard and easy ways.

Also you never quite know what car will be an unmarked cop car. In Orlando I have seen two I never would have expected. One was a Pontiac Grand Prix that I believe was a greenish color and had the hidden lights and such. The other was a white Ford Explorer or Expedition, I don't remember which now that also had the hidden lights in the windows.
Well this car was a marked car, white doors with police symbol and dark blue for the rest of the car. But I didn't realize it was a cop car until I was next to it because it didnt have the light attachments on the top and so it appeared to be a regular car until I got next to it.

Anyway you've confirmed that I felt my actions were right in getting away from him and falling into the lap of another patrolmen
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Old February 20th, 2012, 12:45 AM   #19
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I just don't feel like I am being unsafe.
You're wrong. The hard part is that you'll be right 999 times out of 1000, but that last one is a doozie.
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Old February 20th, 2012, 12:49 AM   #20
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MOTM - Apr '13
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You're wrong. The hard part is that you'll be right 999 times out of 1000, but that last one is a doozie.
Well its a good thing I'm invincible until age 25 then
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Old February 20th, 2012, 01:22 AM   #21
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The thing they'll nail you for if they think 36MPH or +11MPH above traffic is illegal is "Reckless Driving," which is up to their discretion anyway and the law will side with them.
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Old February 20th, 2012, 01:34 AM   #22
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I specifically have heard CHP has a 35mph rule, specifically 35. So if he is saying that then what I heard is probably true. .
Sorry, there's no such rule. Written or unwritten. Talk to 3 different CHP officers and you'll get 3 different answers. It comes down to individual discretion, and with that the golden rule still applies: stand out for doing something they believe is silly, and it could get expensive. Don't buzz cars, don't split at excessive speeds, don't repeatedly switch lanes quickly to move forward, and you'll be less likely to stand out.
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Old February 20th, 2012, 03:27 AM   #23
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They would probably get you with Vehicle Code 22350 "Basic Speed Law". Note the "prudent" wording which is the same that the CHP has used on their page. With that said there are hundreds or thousands of vehicle codes out there, if they want to tag anyone they can surely find something. This law is so broad that it applies to virtually anyone on the road at any speed even if it is less than the speed limit.

http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22350.htm



They also have these at their disposal
http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21658.htm
http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22107.htm






It appears that CHP no longer says such things on their site. They used to say this (circa 2000 from archives)
http://web.archive.org/web/200008160...l/answers.html

And somewhere addressing the "must merge back in when traffic starts to move again" part they had said 35 mph. They appear to have removed all of the references to specific speeds leaving it more subjective.
Their suggestion was what you should do and never law anyway. That said, "Unsafe Speed for Conditions" is often cited as "Reckless Driving" in many states.
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Old February 20th, 2012, 04:07 AM   #24
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Quote:
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Correct, and as enforcers of the law they dont have to write tickets if you follow their suggestions. However as I said in the post you quoted they have removed said suggestions leaving it entirely to officer discretion. It seems however the cop that was involved in the writeup that started this thread is still using their suggestions as a rule of thumb.

I have always maintained that it was their guideline (the word I used instead of suggestion) and never maintained that it was a statute. The statutes I provided included wording to say that they can be applied to splitting, as in what the ticket would be for.

EDIT: ok I did not use guideline on this thread and maybe not on this forum, I used "unwritten rule" which has the same effect.
It's good to know what guidelines and unwritten rules of thumb they may be using, we just need to make sure people know that they are not the law, are not the rule, and are not the ONLY criteria an officer may use. It's pretty common knowledge now that >35MPH and >10MPH over the speed of traffic are two considerations that many LEOs will use to determine if you deserve a citation. Also, signaling is required when entering lane-splitting space and when exiting it and you can't lane split on the outside of the outer-most lanes (emergency lane or at the center median). If you follow all these and still get a ticket, you likely bumped into one with a more restrictive concept of prudently safe operation than LEOs in general, like those who don't want to see you weaving in and out or passing on the right (they might cite a car for doing the same without lane-splitting).
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Old February 20th, 2012, 06:59 AM   #25
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I've lived in California and in Singapore. "Lane Splitting" seems dangerous to the rest of everyone in the 49 states that don't accept it. When done properly its not really an issue. It should be used when traffic is at a stop, very slow etc. When lane splitting and everyone is at highway speeds you are just being a tard, squid, a$$hole. Quit riding like an A$$hole and giving the rest of us a bad name.
I lanesplit, I've seen an entire family of four on a scooter lanesplit, it can be done safely. You are VERY OBVIOUSLY not doing it safely, Thus you keep getting pulled over. You can lane split right past a cop without issue as long as you are not being a turd. Lane splitting at above the speedlimit...qualifies for turdness.
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Old February 20th, 2012, 07:25 AM   #26
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This is where "fairness" becomes "I am miserable so you must be too". Drag everyone to the lowest rung on the ladder instead of trying to elevate more people to higher rungs.
This is so very true. Extremely sad that we live in a world like this, but oh so very true.
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Old February 20th, 2012, 08:01 AM   #27
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I just don't feel like I am being unsafe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex View Post
You're wrong.
The more accurate way to assess the situation is that it matters exactly ZERO percent how safe *you* think you're being. It matters 100% how safe the LEO thinks you're being.

Lane splitting is allowed, but there is a huge caveat - if a LEO thinks you're doing so in an "unsafe" manner, then you're gonna get pulled over. I put unsafe in quotes because that is up to the officer's discretion, and not how you or I as the riders would perceive it. Lane splitting/sharing is not expressly illegal, but unsafe operation and reckless driving would easily cover a lane splitting situation where the LEO thought you were not being safe.
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Old February 20th, 2012, 09:16 AM   #28
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Quote:
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The more accurate way to assess the situation is that it matters exactly ZERO percent how safe *you* think you're being. It matters 100% how safe the LEO thinks you're being.
Sure, but that's a bit of a tangent. When Jiggles was describing his lane-splitting methods, tickets were the least of the concerns. Splitting cars at 70+ mph isn't safe under any conditions, and it will inevitably come back to bite him. A ticket would be a particularly minor consequence.
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Old February 20th, 2012, 12:46 PM   #29
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I was talking to a cop friend of mine...best guys in the wrold till they're on duty.
He says....up to some limit...I believe 85...you're speeding
Beyond 85...you're recklessly endangering, which I believe he said is a felony.
My other friend got stopped and clocked @ 120 and it appears he is going to jail. Thye take this stuff serious in NY.
It was further explained to me that even if you outrun the police...if they get your plate on camera they can bring you to court to prove you werent on the bike, get a postponement while you are in court thereby costing you at least 2 trips to court.
Maybe $200 for a track day is worth it ?
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Old February 22nd, 2012, 10:36 AM   #30
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or just make sure they dont get your plate.

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I kid I kid

Illegal in all 53 states IIRC.


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Sure, but that's a bit of a tangent. When Jiggles was describing his lane-splitting methods, tickets were the least of the concerns. Splitting cars at 70+ mph isn't safe under any conditions, and it will inevitably come back to bite him. A ticket would be a particularly minor consequence.
True, but again, regardless of speed or conditions, the only person's who opinion of "is it safe" that matters would be the LEOs if he were to get pulled over. Now, as to how fast you can go before you stop lane splitting, that's an individual decision. I will say that "splitting at 70+" isn't splitting, it's speeding. But I would not go so far as to say that it isn't safe under any conditions. I might agree with saying it's not a "smart" decision though. Overall, I think you and I are on the same side of this one.
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Old February 22nd, 2012, 11:26 AM   #31
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Jiggles, be careful! You have been pretty lucky so far in your encounters with the accident gods and the police, count your blessings and don't push your luck.

I'm sorry about lecturing on this, I never got to meet you yet but I worry about you. I enjoy your posts and don't want anything bad to happen to you.
Live by the sword , be prepared to die by it. Its your decision.
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Old February 22nd, 2012, 11:36 AM   #32
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For the record, I go slower on my 650 than my 250 so yea.

Maybe I'll get a busa so that I can't lane split so easily
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Old February 22nd, 2012, 02:14 PM   #33
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Jiggles, I am around the same age and have the same outlook on riding that you do. However, lane splitting is illegal in MA so I don't do that. Already got a speeding ticket on my bike so I don't speed anymore.

Basically you can think you are being safe while driving unsafely, I do this all the time. But you gotta realize that unless you follow the law 100% of the time, you are putting yourself at a greater risk of getting pulled over or worse, crashing.
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Old January 16th, 2013, 09:14 PM   #34
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His attitude was, "I don't want to clean your brains off my highway" lol

Maybe I do need to ride smarter, but the worst I'm really doing is speeding, right?
I know this is an older thread, but I just saw it and thought I'd comment.

After receiving a speeding ticket myself, I spoke with a friend who's a CHP officer in the SoCal area. He told me that, generally speaking, this IS the attitude of most CHP officers.... safety. He also said that, unlike local Sheriff/PD departments, the CHP does not benefit financially from writing tickets. As long as you're not being a punk, they're the most likely LEO to treat you with respect. That's been my [limited] experience anyways.
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Old January 16th, 2013, 09:24 PM   #35
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If you're one of those assholes who splits over the speed limit, then yes, you deserve it.

There's nothing "safer" about splitting at speed. People who push it are those who **** up and ruin it for the only state that allows it.

When I'm in a slower than limit traffic, I expect motorcycles to split by me.
When I'm going 70+mph, I am not. I would not feel at all bad if I accidentally body-checked someone on a bike with my car because they didn't think faster than the limit was fast enough.

I would, however, feel bad for the person who ****ed up their car running over your head, the person who had to pull your arm out of their drive shaft and any bikes that could have been following that wrecked because spleens and motorcycle parts laying all over are just sh!t for traction. And no one is paying for the therapy for the 4 year old who saw it all happen.

It's not about how safe you're being for yourself. It's about the other lives you could ruin. Believing you're just endangering yourself is selfish. You're not the only one out there.
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Old January 16th, 2013, 10:20 PM   #36
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But going over the speed limit is fine if you're not splitting huh? Don't be a hypocrite
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Old January 16th, 2013, 10:27 PM   #37
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Old January 17th, 2013, 12:51 AM   #38
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But going over the speed limit is fine if you're not splitting huh? Don't be a hypocrite
Being a hypocrite would be telling you not to split faster than the limit and then doing it myself. However, I have noticed that seems to be the go-to argument when people are called out on their crap.

My point is that 70+mph in your own lane with good following distance and with the flow of traffic is far different than 70++ between cars also traveling at that speed who don't expect you to be there. It's no different than someone weaving between cars in a car without signalling. It's unsafe lane changing.

If traffic around you is going faster than the speed limit, there really isn't a reason to split rather than "I want to go faster than everyone else and I can". Splitting is argued well in stop and go traffic congestion where the rider is at risk of being rear-ended, in temperatures where the bike and/or rider may overheat and to free up space in traffic for cars.

If traffic is traveling at 70+ mph there is no reason for any of that, and it becomes a point were you're not reducing risk for yourself, but generating it for everyone on the road.
At those speeds, you can't seriously believe that you can react accurately to every sudden lane change, weave, steering play or wandering of other drivers/riders, because at that speed everything happens suddenly.

Lanesplitting isn't there so we can go faster than everyone else. It's there to protect us when we need it, and those who abuse it just spit in the face of everyone who has fought for the privilege to do it safely.


Like I said, if it just affected you, then I wouldn't care. I don't care if people want to do stupid crap and hurt themselves. But it's not just you. It's everyone on the road, and they shouldn't bear the brunt of others' idiotic, selfish entitlements when they do catch up with them.
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Old January 17th, 2013, 02:24 AM   #39
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Old January 17th, 2013, 06:53 AM   #40
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Well its a good thing I'm invincible until age 25 then
Despite being invincible while younger, you pay with interest on all the stupid crap you did during this time when you get slightly older.

I beat the snot out of myself until i was about 27, I'm only 30 now and there is a significant change in aches and pains, to late now.

on topic

A lot of cop cars now a days have radar detectors in them and they are pretty fancy and accurate, even if you are traveling opposite direction and they are in motion it will still give accurate reading.

If for some reason a cop was unable to get an actual speed from radar, they can deem your speed "Traveling at speed greater than reasonable" It is a standard citation on the forums. I have gotten this twice in my car, both when i passed on a double yellow, whoops. Cop got me for illegal passing, blah blah, and then tacked on "speed greater than reasonable" just to be a prick.

You can fight almost any ticket and at least get less fines, or points dropped but if cop shows up you most likely will not win and get away scotch free.
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