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Old February 21st, 2014, 05:17 PM   #1
mikedabike64
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Ninja 500 Spring swap

I adjusted my preload with half-inch spacers, soon as I get some time I want to drop my 500 springs into my 08 250.
I was wondering if anybody had experimented with this if anyone has taken ninja 500 Springs and put them into their ninja 250,
I put a caliper on both and they seemed very close in spring diameter.
I did not measure / compare the lengths.
So I thought let me just ask to see if somebody had done this previously thank you.
I thought given the same diameter with the 500 Spring being shorter it might be stiffer.
But again I thought let me ask before I go dropping them in.
Thanks Mike h
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Old February 23rd, 2014, 09:38 AM   #2
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I think there are threads of people swapping out the rear shock for the 500 shock, but not sure I've seen one where people swapped the front springs yet.
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Old February 23rd, 2014, 10:00 AM   #3
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I see a fair amount of discussion on this site about suspension improvements, most of which involve putting in the rear shock from another model of bike. Got a question about the pregen and postgen ninjettes:

Does anyone (like Klaus at EPM in NJ, for example) sell a decent reasonably priced (like YSS) front-and-rear suspension upgrade kit for the ninjettes? Or are we on our own?
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Old February 25th, 2014, 05:07 PM   #4
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http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...534#post809534 has a bunch of EX500 suspension details.

The Gen2 EX500 fork springs are a little stiffer than the NewGen's, but according to RaceTech's calculator, they're correct for a rider of about 50lbs. Even for a 100lb rider, they suggest 10% stiffer than the EX500 springs; for a 150lb rider, they suggest 25% stiffer. If you have some laying around that you can just toss in, they're less bad, but they're still below the proper rate for any adult. I would only put the tiniest amount of money or effort into acquiring EX500 springs as an upgrade, and only if I were very small. Getting the wrong parts for slightly cheaper isn't really much of a deal when you can just spend a little more on springs with the optimal rate.

The EX500 shock is pretty similar to the PreGen's, except that it has preload adjustment and a much softer spring, 300# vs. 440#. The NewGen's spring is about 520# for some comparison. I doubt the shock itself is much/any better than the PreGen's other than being able to adjust the preload, since it looks nearly identical. Looking at RaceTech's calculator again, the stock NewGen rear spring is a bit stiff, good for about 220lbs. The PreGen's 440# spring is good for about 140lb on the NewGen, and the EX500's 300# is below the minimum 31lb the calculator will accept.

RaceTech's calculator points out a good chunk of the problem with the NewGen's suspension. The rear spring is good for a 220lb rider, but they recommend 25% stiffer fork springs for a 31lb rider (the lowest number it will take). You need 90% stiffer (yes, almost double) fork springs to match the rear spring. The Ninja 650 is oddly sprung like this as well, but with the fork springs about double what the rear spring can handle. The EX500 is just soft on both ends (but more on the front). It really blows my mind that Kawasaki does such a poor job of choosing spring rates.
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Old February 25th, 2014, 05:18 PM   #5
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The racetech calculator isn't the bible and has also been known to be a little off for light riders
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Old February 25th, 2014, 05:52 PM   #6
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ok, thanks

Bill I seat of the pants was telling me just what you said I weigh about 150, I sat on a gentleman's ninja 300 at the track, and it seemed to feel pretty much the same way, not that that stopped in from buzzing around there like heck.
but I do have springs from the 500 laying around seeing as it might be the lesser of two evils,
I suppose I could make some pre load spacers about the difference
between the 500 & 250 Springs. (in length)

most recently with the stock springs I made half inch spacers on it, I seem to get more feel out of the front end which is probably all in my head.
like you said you don't have to put too much effort into it it might be worth more or less of an experiment in anything else.
just that I would need a ballpark for the preload spacers to start with.
and thank you for clarifying that that really makes much sense to me.
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Old February 26th, 2014, 07:10 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choneofakind View Post
The racetech calculator isn't the bible and has also been known to be a little off for light riders :rolleyes:
Yeah, people have said that it might be better to go a step softer than their recommendation on the EX500, and I figured that the ends of the range is probably where there would be the most discrepancy in the numbers. I don't have firsthand experience with the EX250's suspension (other than having a NewGen shock on my EX500), so I was just going with what the calculator said as a baseline. If my assumption that it's at least fairly close is wrong, then everything I've said might not be applicable.

Even if it's a bit off, my basic points still stand, that the EX500 springs are quite soft, and for medium-weight riders the stock springs could be pretty far from optimal and even quite mismatched between front and rear (not just on the 250, but several Kawasaki bikes).

With my limited knowledge, I'd say that the info at http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/EX500_springs_option applies more to the PreGen than the NewGen. Once again falling back to RT's calc since that's all I've got, it shows the EX500's fork springs to be about right for a 100lb rider on a PreGen, while it shows 10% stiffer for the same weight on a NewGen. Unless you happen to be almost exactly 100lb, I would consider it a better deal to buy the correct rate springs from Sonic for $80 compared to paying $66 for the EX500 springs. If you have some EX500 springs sitting around and would just need to make some new spacers, it'll still be at least a slight improvement so you might as well try it. But for most people, I think it'll still be too soft, and buying them new isn't much cheaper than just buying the proper springs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedabike64 View Post
Bill I seat of the pants was telling me just what you said I weigh about 150, I sat on a gentleman's ninja 300 at the track, and it seemed to feel pretty much the same way, not that that stopped in from buzzing around there like heck.
but I do have springs from the 500 laying around seeing as it might be the lesser of two evils,
I suppose I could make some pre load spacers about the difference
between the 500 & 250 Springs. (in length)

most recently with the stock springs I made half inch spacers on it, I seem to get more feel out of the front end which is probably all in my head.
like you said you don't have to put too much effort into it it might be worth more or less of an experiment in anything else.
just that I would need a ballpark for the preload spacers to start with.
and thank you for clarifying that that really makes much sense to me.

http://www.ex-500.com/wiki/index.php...ension_Preload has lots of good background info and math on setting the preload/sag. The big thing to keep in mind is that the setting controls where in the travel range the suspension operates. If your spring is the wrong rate, it will always be the wrong rate, regardless of how much preload you put on it.


I'm just throwing this out there as someone who got the correct rate springs (RaceTechs up front, NewGen shock in the rear) for his fat butt, and now realizes just how crappy the stock EX500 suspension was compared to even just putting the proper springs in. I've since added Intiminators and have a used Penske waiting to be installed, but just getting the correct springs made a night and day difference. I just want to help others get the optimal suspension as well. While there's always a price compromise (or everyone would have an Ohlins), I don't think it's worth saving $14 to get something that you know isn't right.
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Old February 27th, 2014, 10:02 AM   #8
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ok thanks bill

I see what you were saying I appreciate the help if I change it over I will let you know
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Old February 27th, 2014, 12:53 PM   #9
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Sonic springs are 80 a piece, ex 500 springs are 66 for a pair.

Anyhow, I'm 130. The calculator suggests 0.64 and the ex500 springs are 0.585. A little soft but not bad for a street. It's a fine option for a lightweight rider.

The other option for saving money is springs from other bikes. Last I checked, fork springs from an SV650 are somewhere around 0.65 it's worth checking other bikes to save some money where you can.
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Old February 27th, 2014, 02:34 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choneofakind View Post
Sonic springs are 80 a piece, ex 500 springs are 66 for a pair.
You sure about that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zim View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apex View Post
FRSP S2938070 RT FRK SPR 29.0x377mm .70kg $109.99
Sonic Springs sells the same rate springs for $30 less.
I've always heard Sonic was a cheaper alternative, and I only paid $92 for my pair of RaceTech springs. They're currently $94 (MSRP listed as $109.95) with free shipping on Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000GV7SD0/


Quote:
Originally Posted by choneofakind View Post
Anyhow, I'm 130. The calculator suggests 0.64 and the ex500 springs are 0.585. A little soft but not bad for a street. It's a fine option for a lightweight rider.
On the NewGen, they recommend .701 for 130lb on the street and .736 for the track. That's 20-25% stiffer than the EX500 springs. On the PreGen, it's only 5.5-11% off. I'd be ok with using those in your situation, but I'd rather pay $80-$94 for springs of the correct rate than $66 for springs that are only 80% as stiff as they should be.


Quote:
Originally Posted by choneofakind View Post
The other option for saving money is springs from other bikes. Last I checked, fork springs from an SV650 are somewhere around 0.65 it's worth checking other bikes to save some money where you can.
I'm all for using parts from another bike if it works well and is cheap. Like I said, I have a NewGen shock on my 500 because the spring rate works well for me (and the shock probably isn't any worse than the stock shock) and I previously had an SV650 shock on it. However, there's a point where it's better to spend a little more on the right thing, than to save a little money on something that's "sorta close". It comes down to how much it costs vs. how close it is.
Pretty darn close + a lot cheaper = good deal.
Somewhat close + only slightly cheaper = much less of a deal.


If Mike already has them just sitting around, he might as well throw them in. It'll at least be less bad, even if it isn't perfect. If you're smaller and can get your hands on some for cheap (which shouldn't be too hard considering how weak they are for the EX500), they may be a great bang-for-the-buck upgrade. However, I think it's bad advice to tell a 160lb NewGen rider to spend $66 on EX500 springs. There are much better options that only cost a little more.
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Old February 27th, 2014, 02:47 PM   #11
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I get what you're saying. I never said you're wrong. I just don't take that calculator to be perfect. It's known to be off for light riders by suggesting high spring rates, so I wouldn't put much confidence in your estimates of spring rate error. The calculator just gives suggestions, that's all I'm saying. A mathematical model is only good for a defined range. Using that model at the extremes (like your example of 31 pounds) does not yield an accurate answer.

So yes, spend the money to get close and decide what's worth it to you in terms of how close you're getting vs if the savings are worth the soft springs.

I'm not sure why you're reacting like I'm pushing these on a heavy rider, because I'm not pushing them. All I've said in this thread was that the calculator wasn't perfect for light riders after you used it for the extreme case of lightness to make your point. I was showing you a flaw in your argument. I, however, was wrong about prices because they've changed significantly since I last researched the subject.
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Old February 27th, 2014, 03:44 PM   #12
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I may have interpreted that with a bit more "You're wrong!!!!111" than you meant. I'm really not trying to argue with anyone.

I just see so many people who have no clue about the math behind suspension buying whatever someone else said worked, without understanding why they're doing it (it's the same way with rear shock options on EX-500.com). While the EX500 springs may be a good option for some, I have personal experience with them and know they're probably still too soft for a lot of people (maybe the average rider here is also lighter than what I'm used to over on the 500 board). I just don't want someone to assume that the EX500 springs are a universal fix and cheap too. In reality, they're not that much cheaper when bought new, and it seems like they may not be a great match for a lot of people. I defer to others with personal experience on ideal spring rates, as I only have the calculator to go on (my buddy won't let me take his girlfriend's '09 apart just to play with it).

As we both said, compare the cost and how close a match it is. It'll be a different call for each person.

I'm a bigger guy so it's more evident, but it really was amazing how much different the stiffer springs made my bike. Doing anything to move closer to the ideal rate will help, but I'd hate to see someone settle for "meh" instead of "amazing" over the cost of a single tank of gas.
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Old February 27th, 2014, 03:58 PM   #13
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Might be a little late, but I just noticed this thread.

I swapped the fork springs in my pre-gen 250 for ones from a GS500F a few years back. The GS500F fork spring are nearly identical in stiffness to the ninja 500 springs.

I weigh ~150lbs, so according to the racetech calculator they are actually a little soft for my weight, at least that's what racetech says. The front end is actually way to stiff, I was gonna go back to stock and raise the oil level hoping to find a happy medium. I never got around to it though, just got used to a stiff front end which is better than a soft front I guess.

With the GS500F spring the front end on that bike barely moves, even if I jump up and down on the bike, or under hard braking. I might be getting 2in of travel during riding, just a guess from looking at the forks but I know I wasn't getting anywhere near full suspension travel.

I don't know why the racetech chart is so far off for me. Unless you weigh over 200lbs I wouldn't recommend the springs. BTW I also swapped the rear shock in that bike for one from an '08 250, which I was really happy with.
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