how do you crash?

[old3]

Originally Posted by alex.s

i was referring to my 600 which is just shy of 450 (its from 1992) but 100 lbs shouldn't make that much of a difference. if anything i would trust the bigger bike to stay on the ground. maybe you have never had a sliding wheel catch the tiger teeth and flip the bike after a lowside? i have seen highsides turn into lowsides and lowsides turn into highsides. you can't predict what a bike sliding on its side or upside down is going to do. sure you can take a guess that if you drop the bike going 35, its probably not enough force to flip the bike very much.

And if it flips you believe you have some sort of control as to where you are going and what your legs and arms will do? You will most likely be a rag doll. Nice to have a plan, but at that point there is not much you can do.

Low side at 35 and let me know!

How often have you crashed? Seriously? 35 was like falling from a third story window. Thankfully I held the bike and was simply dragged to a stop.

[rojoracing53]

How do I crash you ask? well you name the style and method and I can almost guarantee I've accomplished it with a 10 for style point's.

[old3]

Originally Posted by alex.s

i was referring to my 600 which is just shy of 450 (its from 1992) but 100 lbs shouldn't make that much of a difference. if anything i would trust the bigger bike to stay on the ground. maybe you have never had a sliding wheel catch the tiger teeth and flip the bike after a lowside? i have seen highsides turn into lowsides and lowsides turn into highsides. you can't predict what a bike sliding on its side or upside down is going to do. sure you can take a guess that if you drop the bike going 35, its probably not enough force to flip the bike very much.

100 lbs. is huge. I'll crash a 250 lbs. bike over a 350 or 450 lbs bike all day long.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by old3

And if it flips you believe you have some sort of control as to where you are going and what your legs and arms will do? You will most likely be a rag doll. Nice to have a plan, but at that point there is not much you can do.

Low side at 35 and let me know!

How often have you crashed? Seriously? 35 was like falling from a third story window. Thankfully I held the bike and was simply dragged to a stop.

i've crashed 7 times. 35 is barely sliding on the ground and is slower than all of my crashes except for the first two (first one was the first day i got the bike, and the other was getting hit by a car so i wasn't going fast)

you weigh less than a bike right?

do you know how mass works? what friction does? big things take more to slow down or speed up. separating yourself from the bike means you will slow down faster than it will. which means it goes off in front of you and flips and goes and does whatever the **** its going to do, and you get a nice view of it while you're sliding because you're going slower than the bike. if you tried to hold on to it what do you think would happen?

[old3]

Originally Posted by alex.s

i've crashed 7 times. 35 is barely sliding on the ground and is slower than all of my crashes except for the first two (first one was the first day i got the bike, and the other was getting hit by a car so i wasn't going fast)

you weigh less than a bike right?

do you know how mass works? what friction does? big things take more to slow down or speed up. separating yourself from the bike means you will slow down faster than it will. which means it goes off in front of you and flips and goes and does whatever the **** its going to do, and you get a nice view of it while you're sliding because you're going slower than the bike. if you tried to hold on to it what do you think would happen?

Why are you asking for advice, you seem to already be steeped in your own beliefs and opinions already?

I'm here with an open mind, but you don't seem to be offering anything as far as a plan for crashing right now. Educate me if you think you can. Dismiss my opinion if you want. No skin off my arse, you were the one who asked for advice.

[NevadaWolf]

First crash, brain decided it didn't want body to bounce and slide and so sent a command for the arm to go stiff and stop the rest of the 150lb body using the flimsy wrist. The wrist spent the next month chewing out the brain for such an idiotic command. The knee got in on the act too since the wrist fracture was minor so the brain needed a big more of a visual.

Second crash, body overrode brain and stayed loose. Ended up just sliding and rolling across the ground (with nice video of the bike doing the same ahead of me) until coming to a stop. Remaining calm and loose and accepting I was just along for the ride let me keep my head about me when it came to the self evaluation before getting up.

Oddly both times i came to a stop face down. Not particularly a view I want, but given the fact that I was seeing and thinking, I'll take whatever I can get after a wreck.

[dcj13]

Originally Posted by NevadaWolf

...Oddly both times i came to a stop face down. Not particularly a view I want, but given the fact that I was seeing and thinking, I'll take whatever I can get after a wreck.

That is why I wear a full face helmet! I like my face (such as it is) and I'm sure we all like your face, too!

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by old3

Why are you asking for advice, you seem to already be steeped in your own beliefs and opinions already?

I'm here with an open mind, but you don't seem to be offering anything as far as a plan for crashing right now. Educate me if you think you can. Dismiss my opinion if you want. No skin off my arse, you were the one who asked for advice.

i'm asking how to survive a crash with less injury. not how to crash in a way that will encourage you to injure yourself as much as possible simply because... you don't want to be away from your bike??? what would hanging onto the bike accomplish to help you in any way at all? you're right i asked the question. and i'm questioning ****** responses like yours.

[old3]

Originally Posted by alex.s

i'm asking how to survive a crash with less injury. not how to crash in a way that will encourage you to injure yourself as much as possible simply because... you don't want to be away from your bike??? what would hanging onto the bike accomplish to help you in any way at all? you're right i asked the question. and i'm questioning ****** responses like yours.

Very judgmental there buddy. Your talking to Frank Rizzo here, liver neck.

I crash my sumoto and MX bikes on a pretty regular basis. I rarely get injured, last major injury was without a fall, a simple foot planted on tar that tore my ACL apart. You want to avoid any sudden limb impacts that break bones and tear stuff apart. If you are low siding at a lower speed, you can simply slide behind the bike with your hands/wrists/arms pretty safe, and your legs behind not slapping the ground.

When using bark busters, holding on is the best place to have your hands. At 150 MPH nobody can really tell you, too many variables.

Maybe my earlier advice about getting a mini and practicing on grass would be good for you, might help you understand after the first time you break your wrist?

[dcj13]

Gentlemen! Discourse is good... Let's remain collegial.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by old3

Very judgmental there buddy. Your talking to Frank Rizzo here, liver neck.

I crash my sumoto and MX bikes on a pretty regular basis. I rarely get injured, last major injury was without a fall, a simple foot planted on tar that tore my ACL apart. You want to avoid any sudden limb impacts that break bones and tear stuff apart. If you are low siding at a lower speed, you can simply slide behind the bike with your hands/wrists/arms pretty safe, and your legs behind bot slapping the ground.

When using bark busters, holding on is the best place to have your hands. At 150 MPH nobody can really tell you, too many variables.

Maybe my earlier advice about getting a mini and practicing on grass would be good for you, might help you understand after the first time you break your wrist?

are you still talking about dirt like it applies to asphalt?

[flitecontrol]

Originally Posted by alex.s

i'm asking how to survive a crash with less injury. not how to crash in a way that will encourage you to injure yourself as much as possible simply because... you don't want to be away from your bike??? what would hanging onto the bike accomplish to help you in any way at all? you're right i asked the question. and i'm questioning ****** responses like yours.

Wow, that's a lot of crashes! You are wrong about the physics involved. Sliding friction is less than rolling friction. Staying on the bike and utilizing maximum braking is the best way to lose speed. When you "lay her down", you lose all control of where your body is going, and it's going to go a lot farther sliding than it would staying with the bike while braking.

David Hough describes the best way to crash in his book Proficient Motorcycling. I think every rider should read it annually. He doesn't call it the best way to crash, and is a firm believer in riding the bike to avoid a crash. In some instances, the rider may be able to maneuver to avoid a crash. In others, maximum braking can stop the bike short of a crash. Even if crashing is unavoidable, which do you prefer, sliding into/under the wheels of the cage, or reducing speed as much as possible before hitting the vehicle and possibly going over it?

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by flitecontrol

Wow, that's a lot of crashes! You are wrong about the physics involved. Sliding friction is less than rolling friction. Staying on the bike and utilizing maximum braking is the best way to lose speed. When you "lay her down", you lose all control of where your body is going, and it's going to go a lot farther sliding than it would staying with the bike while braking.

David Hough describes the best way to crash in his book Proficient Motorcycling. I think every rider should read it annually. He doesn't call it the best way to crash, and is a firm believer in riding the bike to avoid a crash. In some instances, the rider may be able to maneuver to avoid a crash. In others, maximum braking can stop the bike short of a crash. Even if crashing is unavoidable, which do you prefer, sliding into/under the wheels of the cage, or reducing speed as much as possible before hitting the vehicle and possibly going over it?

i'm talking about after you have crashed. when you and the bike are sliding on asphalt. not before you crash.

[flitecontrol]

Have you tried riding so you don't crash?

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by flitecontrol

Have you tried riding so you don't crash?

again- its not the question being asked. i only crash when pushing my bikes. typically during qualifying of a race. i know how to maintain limits when i choose to do so.

[old3]

Originally Posted by alex.s

are you still talking about dirt like it applies to asphalt?

Yes, because I've ridden, raced and crashed on both surfaces. You race any dirt?

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by old3

Yes, because I've ridden, raced and crashed on both surfaces. You race any dirt?

don't you know? i'm ricky carmichael.

[old3]

Originally Posted by alex.s

don't you know? i'm ricky carmichael.

Then you already know how to crash really hard and walk away. We met at Broome-Tioga, you must remember asking for my autograph?

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by flitecontrol

.........Sliding friction is less than rolling friction...........

Just a pedantic clarification trying to keep Physics pure:

I understand what you say regarding decelerating faster using a braking-steering rolling tire that does not skid or slide on the road.

Nevertheless, sliding friction is stronger than rolling friction.
That is one of the reasons for which we have sliding brake pads and rolling cars and bikes.

On the same line of thinking and assuming that we are going down anyway, riders from whom I learned to ride and I, agree with Alex regarding letting a street or track bike go, as metal and plastic will slide much easier than Cordura or leather (or skin and bones, ....... yikes !!!) over pavement.

I believe that it is somehow different on dirt and grass.

[Sykes92]

"How do you crash?"

In a full set of gear, armored up more than an Abrams, hopefully.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by old3

By "ridden out" I meant till it stopped. A bar touching the ground is not the end in every case either.

I think you took me a little too literally.


Those riders, dirt or pavement, haven't lost control nor are they crashing. And... many track day orgs define a crash as; "a bar touching earth" = retech your bike before you go back out. In OH, if a bar touches earth and there is any damage to the bike, the 5.0 can and will ticket you for "failure to control". Plain common sense says in this case... if you have failed to control, you must have crashed.

While I don't think riders get a choice in the matter very often, nor am I advocating holding on until a full stop, Imma be open minded here and seed this thread with some pros (since alex asked) for holding onto the bars or keeping close to your bike in the event of a crash.

Holding on to the bars until after impact spreads the impact to better armored areas and/or larger, stronger points of the body vs. the hands.
Riders/cagers only have one target to avoid.
The bike may block the rider from sliding under a car.

The cons?
We all have seen bikes crash and the amazing stunts they sometimes perform without a rider present. I just am not sure the pro's outweigh the cons the majority of the time. And I have seen with my own eyes, a rider pulled back onto the race line after lowsiding and holding on for dear life. He got real lucky that day... Lemme know if you wanna see the video of that. If he would have let go, the rider and the bike would have easily slid off the track.

[BlueHairSar]

I haven't been in a crash, but I imagine you would want to react the way you would with any other "falling" technique:

Tuck your chin, move your body like you're going to sit (as opposed to staying upright - this helps keep you from waving your arms, and staying upright), and naturally curl into fetal position.

Falling properly is a skill and requires practice to break the natural habits we have, like going limp, tightening up, or waving our arms around. But these skills are things that are used in things like kung fu, flying trapeze, snowboarding/skating, etc.

[jefe305]

Originally Posted by Boosted139

Stay relaxed and slide. Every time I've crashed my first instinct is to keep my head from sliding and hitting the ground so I don't need a new helmet. Yes that's seriously what goes on in my head believe it or not.

Hahaha same here, in my last crash I kind of leaned up and just slid on my lower back until I stopped. Helmet is okay except for some minor damage by the chin which I guess happened when I rolled.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by BlueHairSar

But these skills are things that are used in things like kung fu, flying trapeze, snowboarding/skating, etc.

After 10yrs of TKD, I got the falling part down. It's getting back up that is getting harder on me the older I get.

Having a bit of luck on your side wouldn't be a bad thing either.

[eddiekay]

I'm impressed by these track-crash vids where the riders are like trying to stand up as they slide....I got hurt a few times on the street and sliding into and thru things was pretty painful.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by old3

Maybe, if this is a serious topic, you should define what you mean by crashing. In a typical low side, into a clear path, yeah, hold the fook on.

Completely disagree.

Originally Posted by old3

Very judgmental there buddy. Your talking to Frank Rizzo here, liver neck.

Dude, chill and get off your high horse. People are more likely to at least think about and may consider your opinion more relevant if it comes with solid discussion and leaves out immature name-calling and ego.

[old3]

The Frank Rizzo bit is a joke that I guess you aren't aware of and I know how to fall off my high horse without getting hurt. You crash a lot? How about teaching me how to do it?

[ally99]

Originally Posted by old3

The Frank Rizzo bit is a joke that I guess you aren't aware of and I know how to fall off my high horse without getting hurt. You crash a lot? How about teaching me how to do it?

You just made yourself sound even less credible. Seems to happen every time you type a completely oblivious response to anyone. And your "joke" sucked.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by old3

The Frank Rizzo bit is a joke that I guess you aren't aware of and I know how to fall off my high horse without getting hurt. You crash a lot? How about teaching me how to do it?

I crash less as I ride more. How about focusing on learning how to ride more than bragging about learning how to "fall off your high horse without getting hurt"? I'd be careful saying things like that.

[old3]

Originally Posted by ally99

I crash less as I ride more. How about focusing on learning how to ride more than bragging about learning how to "fall off your high horse without getting hurt"? I'd be careful saying things like that.

Why???

[ally99]

Originally Posted by old3

Why???

First of all you sound like a conceited prick. Secondly? Never think you're invincible. You're human, so you're not.

[old3]

Originally Posted by old3

I explained it in my post, you will try to catch yourself with your hand by reaching out. That is a great way to snap a wrist or arm. I'd rather be dragged to a stop than snapping my bones trying to fight it. Every crash is different, but given the room to slide to a stop, I'll keep my grip as long as possible.

Last "good" crash was 35MPH impact on the sumoto race bike. It blew my leather jacket zipper open but I had only minor abrasions thru the arms of the jacket. My hand guards were scarred very badly.

Alley, get a grip. I gave my advice, seriously, based on a extensive years spent crashing like a fool. I explained the circumstance I'd use this tactic and the reasons why. If you disagree, that is great, don't use it.

You don't like my Frank Rizzo joke? Maybe you don't get it? Maybe you do? Tell me why in the circumstances I explained why my suggestions are bad, if you can. I've probably been falling off bikes on tracks longer than you've been alive but if you can really teach me something, go for it!

[old3]

Originally Posted by ally99

First of all you sound like a conceited prick. Secondly? Never think you're invincible. You're human, so you're not.

I think you hear what you want to hear. Feel free to answer me above request to educate me and others or take it to PMs if you have some personal issue with me. Do I know you? You sound like something but I'll refrain from putting a name to it.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by old3

if you can really teach me something, go for it!

Lesson one: When delivering a concept or idea to another, and it's still not completely understood after the first example. Then another example must be rendered in a way that can be understood. Otherwise your concept or idea falls on deaf ears. So far, in this thread. I have given more beneficial examples of your statement than you have.

Lesson two: Try to include the questioning party in the process of arriving at an understanding that they are comfortable with, even if it's a partial stepping stone along the way.

Lesson three: To build a rapport that supports trust and encouraged interaction and learning, present yourself as a peer that is experienced, instead of a superior with low tolerance and something to prove.

Above all, from one experienced rider to another, what works for you, may not work for everyone. You know this...

In your future posts, here or anywhere else for that matter. Try to remember these lessons, for they will serve you well.

Peace.

[old3]

I went back and read my advice and explanation, what I see from the OP are condescending comments and another member apparently protecting him when I sparred with some humor directed at him.

You seem to get it CS, the OP only want to hear what I guess he already believes.

I don't need to prove him wrong, he seems to have all the info he needs already. Why he asks a question this wide ranging, with basically zero specifics, on a forum rife with far less accomplished riders than he believes he is I don't know???

I hope he finds a very safe way to crash. Practicing it at safer, lower speeds on a less aggressive surface like grass seems to be an insane idea to him. Good enough for many of the best racers in the world though.

Enjoy debating whatever it is that he was looking to confirm about his own opinions!

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Lesson one: When delivering a concept or idea to another, and it's still not completely understood after the first example. Then another example must be rendered in a way that can be understood. Otherwise your concept or idea falls on deaf ears.........

Lesson two: Try to include the questioning party in the process of arriving at an understanding that they are comfortable with, even if it's a partial stepping stone along the way.

Lesson three: To build a rapport that supports trust and encouraged interaction and learning, present yourself as a peer that is experienced, instead of a superior with low tolerance and something to prove...........

You are a natural teacher, Chris

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein


.......... but please, change this last avatar !!!
For some reason a see a mustache growing on that face.

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by alex.s

again- its not the question being asked. i only crash when pushing my bikes. typically during qualifying of a race. i know how to maintain limits when i choose to do so.

Have you tired to not pushing your bikes around and just riding them everywhere It seems a lot of people can't master the pushing the bike while standing on one side, they tend to lose their balance and get pulled and crashing over on the opposite side.

[csmith12]

Lol Hernan!!! I believe I have found a fix for my identity crisis and things will be back to normal soon enough.

You know what has scared me more than any moment on a bike? My first class as the instructor at my local college. Nothing put me in my place more than 27 fello adults of varying ages, experiences and backgrounds all staring at me with whatever expectations they had. My dad tried to teach me many things when I was a wee lad, but I never really understood some of those values until the end of that day. Heck man, I still don't understand some of them, despite having gray hairs.

[old3]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

Have you tired to not pushing your bikes around and just riding them everywhere It seems a lot of people can't master the pushing the bike while standing on one side, they tend to lose their balance and get pulled and crashing over on the opposite side.

Brevity seems to be quite polarizing with this bunch.

[pwalo]

Strange question. Obviously if you're sliding along, you want to relax, get your arms close to your body, and pray that you don't hit something solid like a curb, or get run over by a car! (Presuming you're riding on the road rather than the track).

I've only ever come off my bike once, despite being hit three times by cars, and having a tyre deflate. Unfortunately my 'off' was highside after being hit from behind. It hurt.