The Ninja 300 will fail

[ninjaone]

Originally Posted by Alex

Put up or shut up.

Post the numbers, or stop the crap.

This website is for fans of kawis and fans of ninjettes. If you're here to bash that, this doesn't make you an informed and articulate consumer. It makes you come off as a bit of a tool who doesn't understand his audience.

honestly I'm why you guys think I'm bashing anything? I said repeatedly that in my opinion having ridden all 600 supersports Kawasaki has the highest quality among the big 4. I already posted the latest numbers which show Kawasaki is 4th in production among the big 4:

http://www.ultimatemotorcycling.com/...wn-0-9-percent

I will drop it since it seems this has struck a nerve with people, but honestly I'm not saying anything bad about Kawasaki or their brand, I think they make great bikes and I've said it repeatedly in this thread.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by ninjaone

that in my opinion

That's exactly the point. Check the sig

[ninjaone]

To be clear my opinion is regarding quality, the facts are the numbers which I posted which aren't really up for debate.

Anyway I think it's kind of funny the contrast between this community and something like the Ducati community. On the Ducati forum, everyone loves the fact that Ducati has relatively small production numbers and is more exclusive in terms of ownership. They love that not everybody rides a Ducati.

On this forum, it seems everybody wants the Ninja to be the most popular bike in the world and are actually offended when you imply it might not be.

All I know is, when I see a ZX-6R riding down the street, I figure that guy is more of a motorcycle connoisseur then the guy riding an R6 or GSXR600, because the ZX beats those two bikes hands down in my opinion.

[Alex]

Nuff said. I'm seeing similar numbers to what you've posted, which does show Kawi as the smallest producer in Japan. But Suzuki isn't far ahead many months, and the July exports from Japan have Kawi ahead by a bit. That said, those JAMA numbers look like they don't include units that are built outside of Japan, so top sellers like the ninja 250 and cbr 250 both built in Thailand aren't in there anyway. I think that the best numbers for the US sales would probably come from the MIC, but they don't publish them publicly or freely, so your speculation is as good as mine or anyone else's.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by ninjaone

It would be interesting to see but of course it wouldn't count as data.



That's not a great example because the general public doesn't buy trucks. Just like the 747 is one of the most famous airplanes doesn't say anything about it's sales numbers. The disconnect between brand recognition and sales is relatively huge in commercial business to business products like that compared with a customer product like a motorcycle. Can you think of a single consumer product which has huge public mind share but lower sales numbers? It simply doesn't happen, not with Kleenex, not with dish detergent, not with shoes, not with clothes and not with motorcycles.

The general public doesn't buy motorcycles but the general public is aware of what a "Ninja motorcycle" is and most of them know that it is actually a "Kawasaki Ninja." That said, the pervasiveness of Kawi's brand is why we have knock-off names like "Katana" from Suzuki directly taking aim at "Ninja." Even though "Hayabusa" from Suzuki is taking aim at the Honda Super Blackbird and Nighthawk bikes, none would likely carry a name like that if it weren't for "Ninja."

I don't see Kawasaki attempting to change the Concours 14 to "PlatinumRotor" to compete with the Honda GoldWing's domination of the touring bike segment presence of mind. I don't see Honda calling their VFR1200 the "Honda Shinobi R1200XGS" to aim at the Suzuki Hyabusa GSX1300R. What I see is a market trying to duplicate the presence of mind Kawasaki and their "Ninja" brand have.

Originally Posted by ninjaone

Besides, I still don't get why you guys care so much, for all the reasons I mentioned before, having a strong brand doesn't mean anything when it comes to actual products, so again, why do you care that Kawasaki is a distant fourth in sales and brand among the big 4?

And now we come FULL CIRCLE. No one is getting defensive of Kawasaki. We're just saying that you are delusional and dead wrong if you think Kawasaki doesn't have the recognition to register on a sampling of ten sportbikers. Not only do we believe that the brand recognition is disconnected from sales, but we believe that the relationship in this case is EXACTLY OPPOSITE of what you believe it to be: among Japanese sportbike brands, Kawasaki has MORE awareness in the general public despite lower sales. I never gave two craps about your sales claims, only the ridiculous notions that people would ID Honda and Yamaha and Suzuki first ten of ten times when, in reality, it would be closer to 6+ for Kawasaki/Ninja, and the remainder divided by Honda, Suzuki, and Yamaha.

I'm willing to prove it as soon as I get my replacement earhook for my Looxcie.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by ninjaone

All I know is, when I see a ZX-6R riding down the street, I figure that guy is more of a motorcycle connoisseur then the guy riding an R6 or GSXR600, because the ZX beats those two bikes hands down in my opinion.

Well the guy on the gixxer is clearly a squid and the guy on the R6 is a n00b on his first bike, the zx6r guy is probably a pro AMA racer

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Well the guy on the gixxer is clearly a squid and the guy on the R6 is a n00b on his first bike, the zx6r guy is probably a pro AMA racer

Unless it's @Kevin2109, then all bets are off.

[Kevin2109]

Originally Posted by Alex

Unless it's @Kevin2109, then all bets are off.

I beg to differ @Alex

[Alex]

I love the mention function.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by Alex

Unless it's @Kevin2109, then all bets are off.

Did you not hear? Kevin (dragged? drug? drugged?) drugged knee before hitler on GMR

Link to original page on YouTube.

[alex.s]

i disagree!!!!

[eddiekay]

I dont think the 300 will fail but I dont think it'll develop the cult the ninjette has. At this early point..it has no position, no real reason to exist. It appears that it will do more than the 250's....but still nowhere near what a 600 is. A little faster, maybe a bit more MPG, possibly handle better ( in the hands of a racer) but I really dont get what Kawa is thinking. Honda has a nice 250 and we'll still have the ninjette and that little suzuki ( do they still make that?) so it's not the only choice as a pure entry level bike,,,in fact...it's not entry level anymore. I'm just guessing but...I dont imagine it'll perform with any 600.
Really...outside of us on this board....whio's gonna buy these ?
Alex....did you write them a letter telling them we wanted 300's or something sneaky like that ?

[Jiggles]

^ wut

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by eddiekay

I dont think the 300 will fail but I dont think it'll develop the cult the ninjette has. At this early point..it has no position, no real reason to exist. It appears that it will do more than the 250's....but still nowhere near what a 600 is. A little faster, maybe a bit more MPG, possibly handle better ( in the hands of a racer) but I really dont get what Kawa is thinking. Honda has a nice 250 and we'll still have the ninjette and that little suzuki ( do they still make that?) so it's not the only choice as a pure entry level bike,,,in fact...it's not entry level anymore. I'm just guessing but...I dont imagine it'll perform with any 600.
Really...outside of us on this board....whio's gonna buy these ?
Alex....did you write them a letter telling them we wanted 300's or something sneaky like that ?

Uhh, it has every reason the 250 had to exist and then some.

[Reddoak]

Fail? How. I'll bet Kawi sells every one that they import to the US. That would be a success.

Now, someone mentioned the beloved ER-6N earlier. I have one, I love it, it's better than all of your bikes (unless you have a Z1000 or a Ducati Monster.) This is undisputed, factual, absolute truth. However, the ER-6N was a failure in the US market. How do I know this? I bought my 2009 ER brand spanking new in 2011... for less than the price of a Ninja 300. When they have a bike leftover for 2 years and need to unload them cheap... failure.

All that said, if I were bike shopping with the same criteria I had back in 2008 (When I bought my 250r) I would go buy a CBR. It's cheaper (criteria 1), better on gas (criteria 2) and comfortable and capable enough to ride (criteria 3). When I bought the 250R for $3,600 there was nothing to compare to it. The Rebel and Nighthawk were crap, the only real small displacement bike worth owning was a Ninja 250, in my opinion. And at that price, and driving a car that got 16-17 MPG on 93 octane, it cost less to pay for the bike than put gas in the car.

The CBR certainly hasn't tossed the Ninjette off the top of the hill, but it certainly smacked Kawi around a bit. If Kawi had released a FI 250 here for the same price as the carbed one, it would have been a slam dunk. They left the small displacement door wide open for a long time, and Honda certainly stepped in hard.

[Alex]

Learned something about the CBR250 today while chatting with the salesguy selling me my new 300. The CBR may be cheaper on Day 0, but the first service is early, and it's $500 as they do have a required valve check, compared to the $150ish service for the Ninjette, which doesn't require a valve check until 7500 miles.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Reddoak

Now, someone mentioned the beloved ER-6N earlier. I have one, I love it, it's better than all of your bikes (unless you have a Z1000 or a Ducati Monster.) This is undisputed, factual, absolute truth.

I dispute it, call it non-factual, and inabsolute. That's the problem with bikes, as the specs sometimes don't translate to either a certain amount of fun, or a certain amount of got-to-buy-it-right-now-someone-try-and-stop-me. It's impossible to measure "better" by any tape measure, dyno, suspension tester, or lap time.

If you used the words "more capable", then it's a harder to dispute, as it's undoubtedly faster, likely a little more comfortable over long distances, might be better able to support a passenger, and certainly provides more bang for the buck in terms of inherent measured capabilities.

But none of that makes it better. And it was pulled from the market accordingly. Buyers are fickle creatures.

[Boom King]

Originally Posted by Alex

Learned something about the CBR250 today while chatting with the salesguy selling me my new 300. The CBR may be cheaper on Day 0, but the first service is early, and it's $500 as they do have a required valve check, compared to the $150ish service for the Ninjette, which doesn't require a valve check until 7500 miles.

That's a good point. I think the first service on the Honda is at 1000 km requiring oil and filter change, checking of bolts/nuts and valve clearance inspection. Seems like a huge money grab. The chances of a modern day Jap designed bike having valves go out of spec at 1000 km are probably virtually nil.

[rjones91]

Originally Posted by Alex

Learned something about the CBR250 today while chatting with the salesguy selling me my new 300. The CBR may be cheaper on Day 0, but the first service is early, and it's $500 as they do have a required valve check, compared to the $150ish service for the Ninjette, which doesn't require a valve check until 7500 miles.

The first service is recommended at 600 miles and I paid $199 (not including switching out front sprocket) and I paid this amount because the dealer I took it to charges $90/hr and it was a 2hr job for it including valve check, oil change, oil filter and they supposedly checked everything else checkable on the bike. It all depends on where you get the service done as I have seen many other Honda cbr riders pay alot less and some pay more.

[Alex]

Yep, it definitely depends on area. According to the guy I just bought the 300 from, who also sells CBR250's (Kawi/Honda/Suzuki dealership), it's a $500 service at their shop. What's the interval for the next valve check? The Kawi's have a 7500 mile interval from 2008 on, with first one due at 7500. The '07's and earlier did have an early valve check, requiring an expensive service at 600 miles.

[rjones91]

According to Honda the second valve check is at 16,000 miles.

[Alex]

Then it's a bit of a wash, at least over 16k miles, with both bikes requiring two checks/adjustments. Past that period, if the interval remains 16k, it becomes cheaper on the Honda, though it takes until 22.5k miles for the 3rd one on the kawis. It's a rare bike in this class that makes it north of there before someone sells it, but certainly some do.

[Aufitt]

Originally Posted by Alex

Learned something about the CBR250 today while chatting with the salesguy selling me my new 300. The CBR may be cheaper on Day 0, but the first service is early, and it's $500 as they do have a required valve check, compared to the $150ish service for the Ninjette, which doesn't require a valve check until 7500 miles.

No sorry Alex, the cbr first 1000km service is $200-$300, (even here in Oz)
includes valve clearance check.

I just got a 2012 Ninja 250 service done for a friend at same dealer group $150.

Neither bikes will 'fail' certainly not here, they are the 2 biggest sellers.
The Australian sales figures for first half of year 2012-

cbr250r 1258
Ninja 250 - 943

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=806956

[Aufitt]

My Ninja 300 wont fail either, I set up my motorcycles meticulously for track use.

Cannot fault the Honda, and have no brand loyalty or bias.
Cant wait to get it humming, hopefully lapping a little quicker, and the same sure footed handling.

[JA-Moo]

Originally Posted by Aufitt

My Ninja 300 wont fail either, I set up my motorcycles meticulously for track use.

Cannot fault the Honda, and have no brand loyalty or bias.
Cant wait to get it humming, hopefully lapping a little quicker, and the same sure footed handling.

It will be interesting what differences you can tell.......

[Aufitt]

Originally Posted by JA-Moo

It will be interesting what differences you can tell.......

If it can do this, and not lose so much to the big bikes on the boring bits I'll be stoked-

http://i34.servimg.com/u/f34/16/24/31/39/_mg_5713.jpg

Just picture a White 300 under me instead lol.

[Orleanne]

< First post Been a lurker for a while

Ok, to the OP.. I am exactly the kind of buyer you described. I'm 29 years old and brought my first bike 3 months ago, Will I be lynched for saying I brought a CBR125 ? I love the bike to bits and have rolled up just under 4k miles. And yes I probably do look pretty silly as a middle aged man riding a 125...... I really dont care, it's my baby.

I'm doing my direct access course over the next couple of months and am looking for something to upgrade too. I've been umming and arr'ing over what to upgrade to and I must say untill recently i was settled on buying a CBR 250R, Which I DONT prefer over the ninja but I will have about 2k to lay down as a deposit on my second bike, Honda offer some very nice low interest rate finance which Kawasaki in the UK do not. On top of that the CBR has ABS which is an added plus, and yes... The bike itself is cheaper.

Enter the Ninja 300, All previous plans turn to plop... It's got plenty enough speed to keep me happy, looks fantastic, will manage 60-70mpg (or so i believe) and has abs.. ( cant say I care to much about a slipper clutch ? Maybe I ride like a noob/idiot but I cant say i've ever downshifted 4-5 gears and popped the clutch.,.... may try it for a laugh )

Would I pay 1k more for a significantly better bike ? In an instant !!! and will be doing once they roll out here in the spring.

Orleanne

Oh yeah....the only issue I have with my ideas changing AGAIN is just how economical/budget/fast the new CBR 500 will be :/ Sigh

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Aufitt

No sorry Alex, the cbr first 1000km service is $200-$300, (even here in Oz)
includes valve clearance check.

There's nothing to be sorry about, but that is exactly what the dealer 8 miles north of my house, who I just picked up my bike from Saturday, gets for the fisrt service on the CBR250's that they sell. I'm relaying exactly what they shared. Now whether someone who owns that bike decides that's a reasonable price to pay for that service, is certainly up for discussion.

[Aufitt]

Originally Posted by Alex

There's nothing to be sorry about, but that is exactly what the dealer 8 miles north of my house, who I just picked up my bike from Saturday, gets for the fisrt service on the CBR250's that they sell. I'm relaying exactly what they shared. Now whether someone who owns that bike decides that's a reasonable price to pay for that service, is certainly up for discussion.

http://www.cbr250.net/forum/cbr250-s...vice-cost.html

Most average $220 in the USA and $250 in Oz.
Thats for first compulsory valve clearance remember.. so about the same as the ninja & cbr annual service.
Very few actually need shims (mine didnt)... it just covers Honda's, (and the owners) ass.

[Alex]

Makes sense. Mine didn't need any shims at that first 7500 mile check either. Makes you feel like it was wasted $ in some ways, to open everything up just to find out that nothing needs to be done.

The valve check service is relevant to folks on ninjettes because it was a significant change from the '07 to '08 model; the older versions did require and early (expensive) valve check, and some dealers were asking similar amounts of money (insane) for that 600 mile service. That was pushed out to 7500 for the initial when they changed the valvetrain adjustment setup, and retained that interval for this newest redesign as well. That said, some folks who do their own work think that the older ('07 and earlier) design was much easier to deal with, as it didn't requiring obtaining the exact size shims and getting them exactly right; it was a simple screw & locknut system that could be completed without any additional parts.

[Kevin2109]

Originally Posted by Alex

Learned something about the CBR250 today while chatting with the salesguy selling me my new 300. The CBR may be cheaper on Day 0, but the first service is early, and it's $500 as they do have a required valve check, compared to the $150ish service for the Ninjette, which doesn't require a valve check until 7500 miles.

Service cost? Psssh n00b

[Alex]

I know, right?

[Reddoak]

Originally Posted by Alex

I dispute it, call it non-factual, and inabsolute. That's the problem with bikes, as the specs sometimes don't translate to either a certain amount of fun, or a certain amount of got-to-buy-it-right-now-someone-try-and-stop-me. It's impossible to measure "better" by any tape measure, dyno, suspension tester, or lap time. ...

LOL, I'll explain:

I have one: True. Dispute it all you want. It's here.
I love it: True. Going to have to trust me on this.
It's better than all your bikes: True. Let me clarify, I am judging by my own personal, highly subjective standards.

Like you said, specs don't translate. I don't "bench race" and say it's better becasue it has XX.XX HP, it's better to me because I like it!

Now the U.S market... not a success at all. Not a hated bike, just an ignored one. I think if they had say.... advertised it, or offered it in more than one color per year.... Might be a different story.

The Ninja 300 will get plenty of advertising, and being an inexpensive bike, I'm sure it will sell well. But as long as Honda offers a less expensive version of the same thing (in a new owner's eyes) Kawi can't hold that percentage of the market that they did. The 250R was already more capable than the CBR, as far as power goes, and people still bought CBRs. Adding more power and features like a slipper clutch that a new rider doesn't recognize... meh. Should have offered a 250r with fuel injection and optional ABS for $500.00 less than the MSRP of the 300.

[Alex]

I think the price differences get nullified more than we'd think due to so many new riders relying on financing for these bikes. (regardless of what we might think about the benefits of doing so). The price that many newer / younger riders for either the kawi or the cbr has as much to do with the financing available. Nobody who wants the kawi is going to buy the cbr because it's a little cheaper. Nobody who wants the cbr is going to be swayed to the kawi, even if the pricing was identical.

[jimn235]

I have a katana and a 2012 ninja250. the katana is fun in a straight line and the ninja is fun everywhere else, except in front of the line of cars that build up behind it on the highway.

I dropped some $ into forks, gearing ratio, and a laminar lip for the 250 so that it's smooth as glass, and the improvements make it world class afaic... except for the line of cars that build up behind it on the highway, and avoiding the prius drivers that can't stay in one lane.

waiting day by day for the 300 ABS to show up at the dealer nearby. for the money, swapping the 250 for the 300 is cheaper than finishing the job with exhaust, FI, and the ABS to cure that line of cars and obstacle course of prius drones ambling from side to side....

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by jimn235

I have a katana and a 2012 ninja250. the katana is fun in a straight line and the ninja is fun everywhere else, except in front of the line of cars that build up behind it on the highway.

I dropped some $ into forks, gearing ratio, and a laminar lip for the 250 so that it's smooth as glass, and the improvements make it world class afaic... except for the line of cars that build up behind it on the highway, and avoiding the prius drivers that can't stay in one lane.

waiting day by day for the 300 ABS to show up at the dealer nearby. for the money, swapping the 250 for the 300 is cheaper than finishing the job with exhaust, FI, and the ABS to cure that line of cars and obstacle course of prius drones ambling from side to side....

Welcome! I hope the 300 does it for you. Keep us informed!

[Old Guy on a '08]

Originally Posted by jimn235

...except in front of the line of cars that build up behind it on the highway.

How fast do they drive in "Around"???? I can keep ahead of traffic pretty easily up to around 90-95mph.... If it going that fast I'm getting off....

[jimn235]

Originally Posted by Old Guy on a '08

How fast do they drive in "Around"???? I can keep ahead of traffic pretty easily up to around 90-95mph.... If it going that fast I'm getting off....

680 up here is 80 in the slow lane and wot in the diamond lane

...and bonus points for dodging the stationary or lanechanging priuses doing 70. Also gusty and foggy most morning

I'm 100+ lbs over the intended ninjette rider. My top end is lower with higher center of gravity

[Old Guy on a '08]

Originally Posted by jimn235

680 up here is 80 in the slow lane and wot in the diamond lane

Like I said 90-95 is okay but it take a minute to get up there....

Originally Posted by jimn235

I'm 100+ lbs over the intended ninjette rider.

Not sure what the "intend ninjette rider" weight is but I'm about 240+ with riding gear on... 80mph is "noprob"

Originally Posted by jimn235

...and bonus points for dodging the stationary or lanechanging priuses doing 70.

[jimn235]

Originally Posted by Old Guy on a '08

Like I said 90-95 is okay but it take a minute to get up there....



Not sure what the "intend ninjette rider" weight is but I'm about 240+ with riding gear on... 80mph is "noprob"

im up around 270. i'm not personally experienced being lighter riding a 250 but I gotta figure the p/w ratio is significantly affected by 10lbs/hp weight penalty moreso than a 170 lb rider. racetech fork stuff for my weight bracket made the bike perfect to ride, top-end take-off aside.

fat-ass aside, i drive like im playing a game of chess, the ninja 250 is a better tool in congestion than a heavier bike, so i ride to work at 8 and ride back at 4:30 to make the most of bad traffic. cuts about an hour off of a 50 mile commute.

with the katana otoh 90+ is instant-on and fun when there's road but the damn prius drivers come up quicker in your flank and there's more inertia to plan for. given the throttle response of the katana and the heartbreaking reality that the ninja-250 simply has none, i decided the ninja was a clear winner for shoulder to shoulder lane splitting.


.. back to the 300 with abs and FI.. maybe enough power/brakes/throttle response to replace both bikes there...

and oh.. btw.. 300 ABS bikes are hitting Nov20.. i just called to firm up the dates