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Old August 30th, 2019, 03:48 PM   #1
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Harley Livewire Demo Ride

I took a ride on the Harley Livewire today.

If I had a spare $30K sitting around I'd buy one. They are insanely fun. Quicker than a liter bike all the power right off the line, the weight is down low and they feel much liter than the 550 lb spec.

The Demo Truck is in the King of Prussia Mall just north of Philadelphia, PA. If you are anywhere near and have a motorcycle license go take one for a ride.

Only downside is if you are short. Seat height is 30". My 5'1" daugther was on the very tips of her toes and didn't feel comfortable riding it.
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Old August 30th, 2019, 08:37 PM   #2
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We're thinking of going to check it out. Little bit of a hike but we'll see. I would definitely like to see it.
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Old August 30th, 2019, 08:45 PM   #3
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Awesome! I want to try this bike. Expensive, probably won't buy one, but I hope they catch on.
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Old August 31st, 2019, 05:34 AM   #4
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$30K? 540 pounds?

No thanky...until the tech, design and marketing is refined, prices and weight lowered, I'll stick with my internal combustion version of 2 wheel fun.
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Old August 31st, 2019, 06:01 PM   #5
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$30K? 540 pounds?

No thanky...until the tech, design and marketing is refined, prices and weight lowered, I'll stick with my internal combustion version of 2 wheel fun.
$30K and 550 LBS also backed up with limited range. I dont recall exactly what the range is but I believe they said under 100 miles then 3 hours charge till the fun comes back on line. I like the looks of the bike but there needs to be an increase in the range before I could even consider it. I have a 100Mile each way commute to work and could not risk getting stuck with a lowbatt on the way to or from work!
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Old September 1st, 2019, 01:02 PM   #6
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$30K and 550 LBS also backed up with limited range. I dont recall exactly what the range is but I believe they said under 100 miles then 3 hours charge till the fun comes back on line. I like the looks of the bike but there needs to be an increase in the range before I could even consider it. I have a 100Mile each way commute to work and could not risk getting stuck with a lowbatt on the way to or from work!
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$30K? 540 pounds?

No thanky...until the tech, design and marketing is refined, prices and weight lowered, I'll stick with my internal combustion version of 2 wheel fun.
You can say what you want, I'll I can say is go test ride one. It's free and they are fun. The lead and tail riders were very forgiving of hooliganizm. And I didn't stick around to see why, but the cops showed up after we got back from the 4th demo run of the day.

I've ridden plenty of liter plus sport bikes, used to own a CBR1100XX. The Livewire accelerates like nothing I have ever ridden. Traction control and ABS is very well sorted out. My 1200 Sportster is over 500 lbs and the Livewire feels much much lighter, it balances very well.

At $30K I'm not buying one either, but if you compare Harley's to Japanese bikes they are anywhere from about %15-%45 more expensive. Compare the Livewire to something like a Zero and it's right in the middle of that range depending on which Zero model you choose. Harley has marketed itself as a premium brand just like Ducati has.

The range is what it is, if you have a 100 mile one way commute it's probably not the bike for you. I have a 27-47 mile commute depending on which route I take.

If I had a spare $30K sitting around I would have one on order.
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Old September 1st, 2019, 02:29 PM   #7
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No offence intended, I am going to test ride one also if I can get a chance. I think 30,000 for an electric bike, any brand, is way too much. With a $30,000 price range we are talking bikes with full ohlins, titanium rods and valves and nearly everything carbon fiber. A Ducati V4S is less and the R is just a little more. Not saying they are better just look at what you get for the same money. Maybe I am not comparing apples to apples
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Old September 1st, 2019, 02:50 PM   #8
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No offence intended, I am going to test ride one also if I can get a chance. I think 30,000 for an electric bike, any brand, is way too much. With a $30,000 price range we are talking bikes with full ohlins, titanium rods and valves and nearly everything carbon fiber. A Ducati V4S is less and the R is just a little more. Not saying they are better just look at what you get for the same money. Maybe I am not comparing apples to apples
No offense taken.

I agree, I don't have $30K laying around and I've done the math it won't pay for itself as a commuter bike unless I ride it for 16 years. (I have a free level II charging station in the parking garage at work.) I can't justify spending my money on one. To be honest if I had $30K sitting around I'd probably spend it on a new Goldwing. Then if I had another $30K sitting around I'd consider a Livewire.

I'm just saying I took a demo ride on them and they are really fun to ride. If you get a chance to take one for a ride. You will walk away with a big grin on your face.
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Old September 1st, 2019, 03:20 PM   #9
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No offence intended, I am going to test ride one also if I can get a chance. I think 30,000 for an electric bike, any brand, is way too much. With a $30,000 price range we are talking bikes with full ohlins, titanium rods and valves and nearly everything carbon fiber. A Ducati V4S is less and the R is just a little more. Not saying they are better just look at what you get for the same money. Maybe I am not comparing apples to apples
Same thing applies to a Zero though. You could get an equivalent gas powered bike for under 10k, it's why I don't have one. My Tiger cost the same as a Zero, but is a much more capable bike.
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Old September 1st, 2019, 04:02 PM   #10
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For 2/3 the price, to can get the highest end Lightning Strike, which has the full Ohlins treatment, carbon fiber bodywork, 150/200 highway/city miles and 150 mph top speed. And you can get the lower range model for $13K.



What I'd suggest to the OP is to test ride something else before you shell out $30K for a Harley.
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Old September 1st, 2019, 04:59 PM   #11
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For 2/3 the price, to can get the highest end Lightning Strike, which has the full Ohlins treatment, carbon fiber bodywork, 150/200 highway/city miles and 150 mph top speed. And you can get the lower range model for $13K.



What I'd suggest to the OP is to test ride something else before you shell out $30K for a Harley.
Can you really buy the Lightening Strike?

Looking at their web site you can buy the $40,000 Superbike. You can put a deposit down on the Strike, which was supposed to be shipping months ago. And they are going to ship the Carbon Fiber version first, which is an extra $10,000.

As far as I can tell the Strike is Vaporware. Really the only competition for the Livewire right now is the Energica and the Zero. If the Strike ever comes to market I'll take one for a test ride.

I've said before I don't have $30K for the Livewire. I'm not really in the market for an electric bike. I'll probably take a Zero for a test ride, I rode one of their bikes a few years ago and was impressed with it.
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Old September 2nd, 2019, 05:51 AM   #12
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Can you really buy the Lightening Strike?
Not yet, but I don't doubt it will be available because the price is within the range of reasonable compared to other electric bikes. If it is vaporware, no big deal. As you mentioned there's still Energica and Zero, which are both better options than the Harley.

What's NOT reasonable was the Strike's initial ad campaign. What pissed a lot of people off, myself included, is that initially they were saying you could get all the good stuff (150mph, 150 mi range, fast charge) for $13K. The whole world was like "Whoa, game changer!" Later on it came out about the bike's "tiers" and you can't get 150mph and 150 mi range for $13K.
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Old September 2nd, 2019, 06:49 AM   #13
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Not yet, but I don't doubt it will be available because the price is within the range of reasonable compared to other electric bikes. If it is vaporware, no big deal. As you mentioned there's still Energica and Zero, which are both better options than the Harley.

What's NOT reasonable was the Strike's initial ad campaign. What pissed a lot of people off, myself included, is that initially they were saying you could get all the good stuff (150mph, 150 mi range, fast charge) for $13K. The whole world was like "Whoa, game changer!" Later on it came out about the bike's "tiers" and you can't get 150mph and 150 mi range for $13K.
How long will Lightening be in business to support that bike? A reasonable price means nothing if you can't make a profit to stay in business.

Zero and Energica better than the Harley?

That is a very subjective call based on looking at specs on paper. And when looking at those specs make sure you are comparing similar components. The Livewire has top of the line components on it. Neither the Zero or Energica have a DC fast charger on them. To get quick charging on a Zero you have to use multiple Level II chargers. And you still don't get an 80% charge in 40 minutes. A DC quick charger is what makes a long trip in a Tesla possible.

Energica has 11 dealers in the USA. Zero has more, maybe 75 but still not much of a support network. Harley has 150 dealerships signed up to sell the Livewire already and more signing on.

You can look at specs on paper and pretty much any Japanese bike is better and cheaper than a similar Harley Davidson, but Harley keeps selling them. Harley has positioned themselves as a premium motorcycle.

I'm not saying the Livewire is the best deal in an electric motorcycle, but if you really take a look at the cost, the features, and the competition it isn't priced that outrageous. No more outrageous than any other Harley motorcycle.

Also consider that Harley is going the opposite route of Zero. Zero started out with basically an electric bicycle and has been building up to bigger and better bikes. The Livewire is meant to be Harley's electric show piece. They have other electric bikes in the design phase that will be smaller and cheaper.

I will agree with you that if someone is considering buying a Livewire they should take a demo ride on the competition. If they can find a dealer near them that will let them take a demo ride. They should do a comparison and buy what they consider is the best bike for them.

Again I'm not buying one, I'm not selling them. I took one for a demo ride, and they are a hell of a lot of fun. Now if Energica, Zero, and Lightening would send a semi truck full of electric bikes around so I can take a demo ride on them I will. But none of them have the money to do that. (although Zero does have a dealership a few miles away that allows demo rides)
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Old September 2nd, 2019, 07:51 AM   #14
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I'd like to ride an e-bike sometime. I loved my '14 Volt so much that I traded it in for a '19 Volt a couple months ago. The power is different from an ICE. I get that people like the characteristics of ICE, but objectively speaking, it's probably a better powerplant by all metrics. Flappy paddles don't have the same feel as rowing through the gears, but few people would argue that they're inferior when it comes to results.

As others have said, the range is the biggest issue for me right now. My new Volt's battery range is right on the edge for my commute. If I use any gas depends on if/where I drive to lunch and the weather conditions. But I always have the ICE available if the trip exceeds the battery range. If I need to take a long trip, I can just treat it like a regular ICE car. I'm not ready to go full EV yet.

My bike is my pleasure vehicle. I'll just hop on and ride around for however long I feel like riding, on whatever route sounds good at the time. Short ranges and long recharge times don't fit that model very well (as compared to a known, fixed commute). Once we get battery and charging tech to the point where it's comparable to the frequency and duration of gas stops (figuring in a few minutes to grab a drink and stretch your legs, not just the time gas is actually flowing into your tank), e-bikes will be much more desirable.

Also, my new Volt has the highest tech packages you can get. It parks itself, and nearly drives itself between the Adaptive Cruise Control and Lane Keep Assist. With a little extra, it can drive itself. And it only ended up costing a couple grand more than this Harley.

Yuck. I just looked up the Livewire's charging details. You can use a regular 120V outlet (Level 1) to charge at ~13mi/hr. It has a standard J1772 L2 port, but it still only charges at the L1 rate - H-D skimped on the AC/DC charger electronics onboard. It also has L3 DC fast charging at ~192mi/hr (~1hr recharge). It looks like most utilities won't even run the 3P 480V necessary for that into residential units (if you wanted to drop huge cash on the best charging option possible). That means you're limited to a 10-11 hour recharge time anywhere there's not a DC fast charging station. For comparison, my Volt's battery is 19% larger and can fully recharge in 2 hours with the L2 in my garage. Check out https://www.plugshare.com/ and filter on the CCS/SAE plug to see how many of those are around you. It looks like MI has about 10 outside of dealerships, with most charging $0.35/min. That's $21/hr (which should be a "full tank" on the Livewire), so don't expect to save much on fuel costs unless you're slow-charging at home.
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Old September 2nd, 2019, 08:32 AM   #15
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The Livewire has top of the line components on it. Neither the Zero or Energica have a DC fast charger on them. To get quick charging on a Zero you have to use multiple Level II chargers. And you still don't get an 80% charge in 40 minutes. A DC quick charger is what makes a long trip in a Tesla possible.
You posted this while I was typing my previous post, which includes the Livewire's charging details. Personally, I feel they did the charging all wrong. They made it support "fast" charging at relatively rare charging stations, with the tradeoff that it will charge very slowly everywhere else. If you're riding around a metro area, or along select highways, you can recharge in an hour. If you're heading out to Sturgis along I-90, the closest L3 charger is in Sioux Falls, 370mi away. If you fill up there, you'll get another 70mi before you have to recharge. You're 300mi away from Sturgis, with 10 hour recharges every 70mi. I'll be the first to admit that EVs are not made for every type of travel, especially with the current status of charging infrastructure, but this "typical" H-D trip points out just how useless the L3 can be.

I'd rather have 2 hour recharging almost everywhere, than 1 hour recharging in a few locations and 10+ hour recharging everywhere else. If L3 fast charging was as common as L2 charging is, I'd be ok with this setup; most people could handle overnight charging at home, if they could fast charge everywhere else. But the fact that they prioritized L3 charging (which isn't even available at home) over L2 in the current environment is a very dumb move in my eyes.

I believe they did this to cut costs. "Charging stations" are essentially just big extension cords with some safety features. With AC charging, the vehicle has an onboard charger that actually converts the power to store in the battery. Faster charging requires a bigger onboard charger. With DC charging, you're basically just dumping the power into the battery, without needing to convert it. They really skimped on the AC charger, not even supporting 240V L2, and get to brag about how they support the simple-and-cheap-to-implement L3. Which ends up being only slightly faster than L2 chargers in other vehicles, like my Volt.

I hope L3 DC fast charging gets more popular, and I like the idea of not having (as big?) an onboard charger on the bike to help keep it simple and light, but I don't see it as a great gift from the H-D gods, or even all that helpful right now, especially considering what they left off.
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Old September 2nd, 2019, 11:58 AM   #16
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You posted this while I was typing my previous post, which includes the Livewire's charging details. Personally, I feel they did the charging all wrong. They made it support "fast" charging at relatively rare charging stations, with the tradeoff that it will charge very slowly everywhere else. If you're riding around a metro area, or along select highways, you can recharge in an hour. If you're heading out to Sturgis along I-90, the closest L3 charger is in Sioux Falls, 370mi away. If you fill up there, you'll get another 70mi before you have to recharge. You're 300mi away from Sturgis, with 10 hour recharges every 70mi. I'll be the first to admit that EVs are not made for every type of travel, especially with the current status of charging infrastructure, but this "typical" H-D trip points out just how useless the L3 can be.

I'd rather have 2 hour recharging almost everywhere, than 1 hour recharging in a few locations and 10+ hour recharging everywhere else. If L3 fast charging was as common as L2 charging is, I'd be ok with this setup; most people could handle overnight charging at home, if they could fast charge everywhere else. But the fact that they prioritized L3 charging (which isn't even available at home) over L2 in the current environment is a very dumb move in my eyes.

I believe they did this to cut costs. "Charging stations" are essentially just big extension cords with some safety features. With AC charging, the vehicle has an onboard charger that actually converts the power to store in the battery. Faster charging requires a bigger onboard charger. With DC charging, you're basically just dumping the power into the battery, without needing to convert it. They really skimped on the AC charger, not even supporting 240V L2, and get to brag about how they support the simple-and-cheap-to-implement L3. Which ends up being only slightly faster than L2 chargers in other vehicles, like my Volt.

I hope L3 DC fast charging gets more popular, and I like the idea of not having (as big?) an onboard charger on the bike to help keep it simple and light, but I don't see it as a great gift from the H-D gods, or even all that helpful right now, especially considering what they left off.
Not disagreeing with you, I have a free Level II charger in the parking garage at my office. But a Livewire wouldn't charge any faster on it.

At the Demo ride I mentioned that to one of the Harley engineers, his comment was "I know, I can't say anything but expect an announcement soon."
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Old September 2nd, 2019, 12:57 PM   #17
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Zero and Energica better than the Harley?

That is a very subjective call based on looking at specs on paper.
Fair enough, That's all I'm really doing at this point, for several bikes that are so far off the prospective purchase curve that it's almost a pointless exercise for most anyway.

Fact of the matter is I've never seen an Ebike that doesn't cost double what it should, given its limitations. Or in the case of the Harley, triple.

The battery production breakthrough we need is never going to happen. We get teased about how some companies are close to some breakthrough, but I can translate those press releases for you: "This is what we're trying to do, but we've failed so far and now we're out of money. Please give us more."
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Old September 2nd, 2019, 02:41 PM   #18
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Yuck. I just looked up the Livewire's charging details. You can use a regular 120V outlet (Level 1) to charge at ~13mi/hr. It has a standard J1772 L2 port, but it still only charges at the L1 rate - H-D skimped on the AC/DC charger electronics onboard. It also has L3 DC fast charging at ~192mi/hr (~1hr recharge). It looks like most utilities won't even run the 3P 480V necessary for that into residential units (if you wanted to drop huge cash on the best charging option possible). That means you're limited to a 10-11 hour recharge time anywhere there's not a DC fast charging station.
That's very sad that they chose to skimp on charging on such an expensive vehicle! It really doesn't cost more than $10 to add good AC-adapter for L2 charging.

One of my friends used to work at H-D headquarters and he tells me they have basement full of high-tech prototypes. Stuff that's light-years ahead of current market. But they intentionally chose to shelve it and crank out same old crap because that's what their target audience buys. With H-D's shift away from traditional old smelly-hippie clients to more affluent yuppie dot.com weekend-warriors, hopefully more of this tech will make it to market instead of being kept in cellar.
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Old September 4th, 2019, 04:02 PM   #19
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The battery production breakthrough we need is never going to happen. We get teased about how some companies are close to some breakthrough, but I can translate those press releases for you: "This is what we're trying to do, but we've failed so far and now we're out of money. Please give us more."
While it's not a true breakthrough, I think we're making decent progress on EV battery tech. From 2011 to 2016, the Volt got a 51% increase in battery range. That's due to a combination of factors, not just the battery holding 51% more juice. But hopefully things continue like this, and before too long we end up with EVs that are overall comparable to ICE for long-distance travel.

I'd love to see a massive breakthrough where a battery weighs half as much, holds twice as much power, and charges in seconds, but I think that's quite a lofty dream. I think steadily improving capacities combined with improvements in partial charging will end up going a long way to help EVs. If you can really-fast-charge to 70% of a 500mi battery, that's going to be about the same as a get-out-and-walk-around-a-bit gas stop for an ICE car. While you can technically refuel an ICE a little quicker, I think most people would be accepting of a 350mi recharge in 10-15 minutes. At that point you're not "sitting around waiting" like with a 1 hour (or more) charge, you're just stretching your legs, grabbing a drink, and using the restroom after several hours of driving, like most people already do.


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That's very sad that they chose to skimp on charging on such an expensive vehicle! It really doesn't cost more than $10 to add good AC-adapter for L2 charging.
The Leaf owners paying $2900 for additional 3.3kW chargers are interested in your sources.
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Old September 4th, 2019, 06:28 PM   #20
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There's extreme rape going on due to large demand and little supply. L2 DC converter is nothing more than typical battery charger. All those little extra line-items is just padding the bill without changing underlying functionality. Implementing at manufacturer's level is least costly, really minimal parts needed (same as regular 12v battery-charger).

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Lectron-...0-30/305916167
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Level-2-E...1772/225522204
https://www.amazon.com/MICTUNING-Cha.../dp/B07QWRSMF5

Even under $100.
7.7kw - https://www.ruzshop.com/products/ele...rger-certified
9.6kw - https://www.picksus.com/shop/ev-with...rging-portable

Problem is not many homes have required outlet. Most, if present would be 20a circuit for dryer, but not much more. Perhaps H-D was playing into this. I made sure when I ran 240v for my welder, I installed 2nd 40a line for EV charging.

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Old September 4th, 2019, 07:54 PM   #21
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We put in a L2 charger at the house when we bought our chevy spark, though it's not really needed at home. Out, yes, you want a good charger, but when we're parked at home for 14 hours, who cares if it charges in 4? Home charging on 110 power is fine. I'm a little disappointed in HD for skipping out on L2 charging, though, since that could really be useful out in the world. My hubby has a Victory electric bike, and we plug that in while we do lunch and it charges up enough to continue the ride and get home.
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Old September 5th, 2019, 04:46 AM   #22
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If Harley improves the charging system to fast charge just think of the possibilities. You will be able to ride between Harley Dealers charging your bike along the way. Harley Dealers have waiting rooms, free coffee and snacks, and you shop until you drop. Plus around here there is a dealer every 20-50 miles.

I have 28 Harley Dealers within a 100 miles.

Looks to me I could ride from New Jersey to Daytona Bike Week on a fast charging live wire and never run out of juice. More research needed, but it looks promising.

I think Harley has got a plan. Remember the old days at the Harley Plant in York PA? No jap bikes allowed in the parking lot. Maybe Harley will revive it to no brandX electric bikes on the power stations.

Say what you want about Harley, but they have lots of dealerships to support a network of charging stations. No one else is even close. Nor will anyone be close anytime soon.

Long Live Harley Davidson
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Old September 5th, 2019, 08:20 AM   #23
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Tesla has a pretty impressive charging network. I wonder if LiveWire owners would be able to charge at the dealerships even after hours.
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Old September 5th, 2019, 01:02 PM   #24
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One thing i’d like to see is splitting battery charge between EVs. Say your LiveWire runs out of juice and leaves you stranded (a leak is certainly part of design). Your spouse can drive over in Tesla and using EV-to-EV jumper, transfer some charge to dead vehicle.
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Old September 5th, 2019, 06:49 PM   #25
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Tesla has a pretty impressive charging network. I wonder if LiveWire owners would be able to charge at the dealerships even after hours.

I think the chargers work 24/7
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Old September 5th, 2019, 06:55 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
There's extreme rape going on due to large demand and little supply. L2 DC converter is nothing more than typical battery charger. All those little extra line-items is just padding the bill without changing underlying functionality. Implementing at manufacturer's level is least costly, really minimal parts needed (same as regular 12v battery-charger).
That's a lot of hyperbole. Yes, an AC charger for an EV is the same basic concept as an AC charger for a 12V battery. However, my 12V charger puts out 10A, or 120W. The slower chargers in older EVs are 3300W, 28x as much. 7200W has been pretty standard for a few years now, so 60x as much. They're the same thing just like taking your Ninjette with a K&N and some carb tweaks to the drag strip is the same thing as a top fuel drag bike.


None of those are AC-DC chargers though. That's just the EVSE - the "extension cord with some safety features" that I mentioned earlier. It connects the power in the wall to the $2900 onboard charger that I linked above.


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Problem is not many homes have required outlet. Most, if present would be 20a circuit for dryer, but not much more. Perhaps H-D was playing into this. I made sure when I ran 240v for my welder, I installed 2nd 40a line for EV charging.
240V L2 is everywhere. There are 2 charging stations in the theater parking lot near work. There are 2 in the parking garage where I used to work. There are 2 in the parking garage next to the arena. There are 2 in the little town of 4,000 next to me. I have one in my garage. The 120V EVSE that comes with the Volt actually supports 240V charging (undocumented feature), so I made an adapter that fits the welder outlet in my dad's garage (I store it in the trunk cubby with the EVSE). 240V L2 is the only fast charging available at home. Even just a 20A 240V outlet turns a 120V charge of 20-30 hours (10-15A outlet) into a 7.5 hour charge. Even if people don't have an "EV charging outlet" in their garage, many do have some sort of 240V outlet, and I'd bet that most EV buyers would be willing to spend a few hundred bucks to have one installed.

Completely removing L2 ability from the Livewire has only two benefits that I can see. It means the bike doesn't need an onboard 240VAC charger. It does have a 120VAC charger, meaning it's still got an AC charger, just smaller/simpler. It saves some weight from the bike, and it saves some cost. I feel like the weight savings is a tiny gain compared to every charge not at a L3 charging station being 10 hours instead of 2. Charging at home, work, or any other random spot is now hugely inconvenient. On the Volt, it's annoying; on a pure EV, it's a major hindrance to using the vehicle.
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Old September 6th, 2019, 10:15 AM   #27
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There might be something wrong with my math, but it really looks to me this electric motorcycle is pure bullshit.

I looked up those fast charging stations. They appear to charge something like $.35/minute.

I think I read it takes about and hour to fast charge a live wire. Man that works out to $21 dollars to go something like 70 miles at highway speeds. Cost per mile $.30.

My Harley Fatboy sucks lots of high octane gas, but I get around 30 miles per gallon.

Cost per mile $3.00 gas per gallon costs me 10 cents per mile. Three times the cost per mile, you can only go a third of the distance, your stuck at 60-70mph, then you have to wait an hour to charge. So drive an hour and wait an hour and spend three times to money.

Why are there so many roof tops covered with solar panels in New Jersey?
Maybe because they are government subsidized. If they had to be profitable you would see zero panels in New Jersey. NJ got a low sun angle and lots of cloudy days. Now Austin Texas different story, 320 sunny days a year.

Ok so I did not include oil and filters. BFD.
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Old September 6th, 2019, 02:44 PM   #28
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Yes, variable costs in dollars-per-mile with EV simply cannot compare with petrol. You've got additional conversion-steps in between that's not 100% efficient. Users reporting lower costs are having lots of their charging subsidised by their work, or malls or city.

I suspect it's another ploy by gov. and oil-companies to get everyone converted, then tax and raise prices.
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Old September 6th, 2019, 05:57 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Cafe Racer View Post
There might be something wrong with my math, but it really looks to me this electric motorcycle is pure bullshit.

I looked up those fast charging stations. They appear to charge something like $.35/minute.

I think I read it takes about and hour to fast charge a live wire. Man that works out to $21 dollars to go something like 70 miles at highway speeds. Cost per mile $.30.

My Harley Fatboy sucks lots of high octane gas, but I get around 30 miles per gallon.

Cost per mile $3.00 gas per gallon costs me 10 cents per mile. Three times the cost per mile, you can only go a third of the distance, your stuck at 60-70mph, then you have to wait an hour to charge. So drive an hour and wait an hour and spend three times to money.

Ok so I did not include oil and filters. BFD.
Your numbers are correct. H-D is partnering with Electrify America, which is the company created by VW as a penalty for Dieselgate. They charge based on what rate you're using to recharge, with most of the ones I've looked at being $0.30-$1.00/min. https://www.electrifyamerica.com/pricing

Quote:
Originally Posted by https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/about-us/hd-news/2019/livewire-beckons-new-moto-experience.html
All participating authorized Harley-Davidson dealers selling the LiveWire model will offer a public DCFC charging station at their dealership. U.S. LiveWire customers will receive free charging on ChargePoint stations at participating LiveWire dealers for the first two years. Additionally, Harley-Davidson will provide U.S. LiveWire owners with 500 kWh of free charging service at Electrify America DCFC charging stations.
That helps ease the cost of charging, but every single L2 charger (mostly ChargePoint) I've seen around here is free, other than the one in the parking ramp at the arena (the city charges you to get into the ramp, then has a meter on the parking spot at the charging station too).

From the little I've seen of it, the EA network seems to have been built to make a profit, or at least not risk losing any money. I wouldn't mind paying actual cost for the electricity I use to charge, or even a little more to help cover the costs involved with the charging station. The LiveWire's battery is about the same capacity as the Volt, so it should be about $2.00 worth of electricity at average home rates. If you're paying $20 for that at a charging station, that's a hefty premium. H-D doesn't list exact charging specs, but at least it looks like the relatively slow "fast charging" should fall into the cheapest EA pricing bracket (though it would still fall into that same pricing bracket even if it were 3x as fast).

Once again, it feels to me like they went the route that looks the best at first glance on paper, but actually ends up being pretty crappy when you get into the details. Adding to my previous statement, I'd much prefer ubiquitous, free 2 hour charging over expensive, rare 1 hour charging and 10+ hour everywhere-else charging. For anyone who does buy a LiveWire, I'd try to use the free ChargePoint dealership chargers as much as possible for the first two years, and save your 500kWh (about 26 full charges) of free EA charging for after that.


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Originally Posted by Cafe Racer View Post
Why are there so many roof tops covered with solar panels in New Jersey?
Maybe because they are government subsidized. If they had to be profitable you would see zero panels in New Jersey. NJ got a low sun angle and lots of cloudy days. Now Austin Texas different story, 320 sunny days a year.
Keep in mind that Berlin is at 52.52°N. That's the same latitude as Newfoundland (i.e. north of the entire ConUS). A couple years ago, Germany managed to get 85% of their energy from renewables. At the peak of that, solar was providing about half of all the power.

Quote:
Just a few weeks ago, an energy auction for the rights to produce electricity from wind turbines off the coast of Germany startled most observers when it resulted in record low prices despite the fact that no energy subsidies were involved in the tender. Critics of renewables like to harp on the fact that many renewable energy projects are partially funded by government incentives, conveniently forgetting that those same governments have been giving away taxpayer money to fossil fuel companies for a century.
We've been giving the oil companies so much money for so long that everyone seems to have forgotten about it...




Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Yes, variable costs in dollars-per-mile with EV simply cannot compare with petrol. You've got additional conversion-steps in between that's not 100% efficient. Users reporting lower costs are having lots of their charging subsidised by their work, or malls or city.

I suspect it's another ploy by gov. and oil-companies to get everyone converted, then tax and raise prices.
Electric is cheaper than gas. ~$1.25 worth of electricity gets you about a gallon of gas worth of miles (~35mi in the Volt and similar EV cars). As long as gas is more than $1.25/gal, it's cheaper to use electricity. Besides just pure cost out of the consumer's pocket, there are other benefits to electric driving. Generally better performance, quieter/smoother ride, no ICE maintenance (or reduced, in the case of a hybrid), reduction in all the foreign issues related to oil, etc. Even if gas fell to $1/gal, I'd probably still choose to use the slightly-more-expensive electric as much as possible in my Volt, just because it's nicer to drive without an engine and refuel in my own garage.
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Old September 7th, 2019, 01:47 AM   #30
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Have to use some real-world examples here comparing actual usage and costs incurred.

Commute miles = 1000 miles/month
Ninja 250 MPG = 55 to 65 mpg, let’s average to 60mpg
Petrol = 3.71 to 3.89, average = 3.80 dollars/gal

1000 miles/month / 60 miles/gallon * 3.80 dollars/gallon = 63$/month in petrol
Or if I drive auto that gets 30mpg = 126$/month in petrol

Now let’s compare to using Chevy Volt.
2.7 miles/kWhr charge - https://www.valleychevy.com/how-much...-a-chevy-volt/
86.7% L1 charging efficiency - https://www.sae.org/publications/tec.../2015-01-1152/

I currently use about 450kW/hrs per month at home. First 200kW/hr tier-1 costs $0.24, thereafter, tier-2 costs $0.32. My last month’s utility bill was ~200$ (includes gas). PG&E lies about temperatures, many many days in 90s last month with couple over 100-F.



So basically charging Volt @ home will cost me tier-2 $0.32/kWhr. This is reality of actual utility bills. My friend Nicole who uses Volt for commuting says she pays $0.28 tier-2 due to low-income subsidies (PG&E still gets their $0.32). That comes to:

1000 miles/month / 2.7 miles/kWhr = 370 kWhr/month
370 kWhr / 0.867 ChrgEff = 427 kWhr/month from wall (about same as my entire household usage)
427 kWhr * 0.32 $/kWhr = 137$/month (120$/m with gov. subsidy)

Or more than petrol auto getting 30mpg. If i buy used Prius hybrid that gets 50mpg, it’ll only cost me 76$/month to commute those same miles and Volt will never cost less to purchase or operate. I’ll stick with Ninja 250 for lowest operating costs and way faster commutes given Bay Area traffic.

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Old September 7th, 2019, 08:16 AM   #31
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I don't have our numbers, but I was filling up one of our cars every week, $50 or so to fill the tank. We sold one of the gas cars, bought an electric, and if we use that a lot, I only had to fill the gas car once a month, and the power bill went up $20.

For us, that was useful. We've been driving the gas car more and more miles overall lately, so we're buying more gas for the car, but it's still less than we had been spending.

Electric vehicles have their place, but aren't for everybody. It depends on your commute, can you charge at home or somewhere, where else you go, and if you have or can rent a second car for those trips too far for the electric. Hubby also has an electric motorcycle and that's his first choice when we go out. We will choose routes that include charging for an hour or so at a lunch stop. If we go on a non-friendly route he'll take the gas bike, but he prefers the electric given any chance.
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Old September 20th, 2019, 05:39 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Have to use some real-world examples here comparing actual usage and costs incurred.

Commute miles = 1000 miles/month
Ninja 250 MPG = 55 to 65 mpg, let’s average to 60mpg
Petrol = 3.71 to 3.89, average = 3.80 dollars/gal

1000 miles/month / 60 miles/gallon * 3.80 dollars/gallon = 63$/month in petrol
Or if I drive auto that gets 30mpg = 126$/month in petrol

Now let’s compare to using Chevy Volt.
2.7 miles/kWhr charge - https://www.valleychevy.com/how-much...-a-chevy-volt/
86.7% L1 charging efficiency - https://www.sae.org/publications/tec.../2015-01-1152/

I currently use about 450kW/hrs per month at home. First 200kW/hr tier-1 costs $0.24, thereafter, tier-2 costs $0.32. My last month’s utility bill was ~200$ (includes gas). PG&E lies about temperatures, many many days in 90s last month with couple over 100-F.


So basically charging Volt @ home will cost me tier-2 $0.32/kWhr. This is reality of actual utility bills. My friend Nicole who uses Volt for commuting says she pays $0.28 tier-2 due to low-income subsidies (PG&E still gets their $0.32). That comes to:

1000 miles/month / 2.7 miles/kWhr = 370 kWhr/month
370 kWhr / 0.867 ChrgEff = 427 kWhr/month from wall (about same as my entire household usage)
427 kWhr * 0.32 $/kWhr = 137$/month (120$/m with gov. subsidy)

Or more than petrol auto getting 30mpg. If i buy used Prius hybrid that gets 50mpg, it’ll only cost me 76$/month to commute those same miles and Volt will never cost less to purchase or operate. I’ll stick with Ninja 250 for lowest operating costs and way faster commutes given Bay Area traffic.
A power outage (oh, the irony!) ate the reply I had typed up, but I'll try to recap the main points I had...

2.7 miles/kWhr seems low. That page shows a Gen2 Volt, but the article references the very early Gen1. I've personally gotten 3.8mi/kWhr in my Gen2, and I drive very NOT-eco and was running the A/C at the time. It's going to depend largely on your speed, so each person's results are going to vary based on where/how they drive.

Your electric rates start at double the national average and go up from there. Using my actual electric rates and the increased efficiency with your example numbers, it would cost me about $51, 19% less than your Ninjette numbers. Using your rates and my adjusted efficiency, it would work out to $97 for you ($85 for your friend). I figure it would be the equivalent of ~$3.50/gal gas - slightly cheaper than what you're paying, but not huge savings like I'm seeing. Generally speaking, if you're getting bent over on electric prices, an EV may not be all that helpful.


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Originally Posted by CaliGrrl View Post
I don't have our numbers, but I was filling up one of our cars every week, $50 or so to fill the tank. We sold one of the gas cars, bought an electric, and if we use that a lot, I only had to fill the gas car once a month, and the power bill went up $20.

For us, that was useful. We've been driving the gas car more and more miles overall lately, so we're buying more gas for the car, but it's still less than we had been spending.

Electric vehicles have their place, but aren't for everybody. It depends on your commute, can you charge at home or somewhere, where else you go, and if you have or can rent a second car for those trips too far for the electric. Hubby also has an electric motorcycle and that's his first choice when we go out. We will choose routes that include charging for an hour or so at a lunch stop. If we go on a non-friendly route he'll take the gas bike, but he prefers the electric given any chance.
That's what I love about the Volt, especially in this area. It's designed to be an EV for an average driver's average driving needs, but it's instantly a regular ICE car with "unlimited" range as soon as you run out of battery. You do give up some battery capacity and some of the EV simplicity by adding in the ICE, but for me it's pretty much perfect. I frequently use no or little (as in tenths of a gallon) gas in my daily driving, but I've also taken several trips of a few hundred miles without even thinking about it (in just the 3 months I've had the new Volt). If I lived in a more urban area and/or had more charging stations available around here, I'd have to think a lot harder about getting a pure EV. But right here, right now, the Volt is just about perfection.


Ok, enough of me gushing about the Volt. Let's get back to agreeing how horrible the LiveWire's charging setup is.
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Old October 15th, 2019, 04:17 AM   #33
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MOTM - Aug '15
Harley-Davidson stops electric motorcycle production due to charging problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by H-D
As we lead in the electrification of motorcycles, we have delivered our first LiveWire motorcycles to authorized LiveWire dealers. We recently discovered a non-standard condition during a final quality check; stopped production and deliveries; and began additional testing and analysis, which is progressing well. We are in close contact with our LiveWire dealers and customers and have assured them they can continue to ride LiveWire motorcycles. As usual, we’re keeping high quality as our top priority.
No real info on the issue, but they're asking that owners charge them only at dealerships, so it seems to be something with the AC charger.
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Old October 15th, 2019, 09:41 AM   #34
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Capacitors are leaking!!!
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Old October 15th, 2019, 07:16 PM   #35
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Harley has decided to stop production.
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Old October 15th, 2019, 08:25 PM   #36
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Goddamn media making it sound like a horrible thing. It's a temporary pause while they figure out a problem with the charging system. It's not unusual, and they didn't even recall anything. It's not that big a deal.
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Old October 16th, 2019, 05:57 PM   #37
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Goddamn media making it sound like a horrible thing. It's a temporary pause while they figure out a problem with the charging system. It's not unusual, and they didn't even recall anything. It's not that big a deal.
Thanks for the “real” news. Harley has an excellent Quality control program that catches problems before too many get out the factory and fixes the problem which avoids huge recalls.
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Motorcycle Safety Foundation

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