Ticket for Sliding into an Intersection

[bob706]

[backinthesaddleagain]

Originally Posted by Blackwidow

i like how everyone throws in the "what if" situations...bottom line is that the law doesn't judge based on "what if's", it judges based on facts and actual occurances.

1. she was not going fast
2. she did not get a ticket for speeding
3. she did not hit anyone
4. road conditions were bad

bottom line is this is an unfair ticket, and by all means it should be heard by a judge. Is she responsible for the car sliding, NO, its the city's fault for not preparing the roads for the harsh weathers PA gets.

There is no such thing as driving at the right speed on snow/ice covered roads, no matter how fast or slow you drive, you still have a chance of sliding..PERIOD. You see people sliding on ice while walking, and they are going what 1 mph on foot? Same thing with the car, how is one to know that the road they are about to drive on will make the car slide? If wifey had hit someone, then yes, her insurance should cover it, but thats not what has happened here.

Good point. If I go to work on an inclement day and slip on ice on the stairs, would the building superintendent say I was exceeding the speed on the steps based on the conditions.

Now there are some idiots who drive like its dry out when its snowing, but that isn't the case here.

[rockNroll]

I'm thinkin' she wasn't sportin' enough cleavage, lesson learnt.

[onetruevibe]

Originally Posted by rockNroll

I'm thinkin' she wasn't sportin' enough cleavage, lesson learnt.

Bwuahahaha!

Now that's how accidents happen!

[Reswob]

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

I think I know what Alex is saying (not to speak for him). Agreed 4WD or AWD has no effect on braking (with the brakes locked). However I do think that engine braking in a 4WD vehicle is more effective than 2WD engine braking. Its probably a combination of added friction/drivetrain resistance (that costs us that couple of MPG), and that backing off on the gas is slowing all the wheels.

Engine braking in an automatic is negligible (most auto's don't downshift under braking until you've come to a stop or reached below a certain speed). If anything, a 4WD vehicle would be slightly harder to stop due to the extra weight of the 4WD components (more inertia). The negligible engine braking increase probably cancels out the negligible weight increase.

[Deanohh]

Is is against the law to enter an intersection against a red light? Yes or No?

So I guess its guilty with an explanation.

No harm, no foul? Then a cop's only duty should be to investigate accidents.

If everyone knows how bad the maintenance is and how bad the roads can be, that hurts her case rather than helps it. Besides that, no amount of maintenance can ever be good enough to prevent all problems.

Also with her luck, if she would have slid off the road and flipped over onto someone's front yard, she probably would have been arrested for tresspassing.

[Deanohh]

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

Good point. If I go to work on an inclement day and slip on ice on the stairs, would the building superintendent say I was exceeding the speed on the steps based on the conditions.

Now there are some idiots who drive like its dry out when its snowing, but that isn't the case here.

What if you and everyone else knew that the stairs were poorly maintained and were always icy in spots and nobody ever cleaned them but you decided to use them anyway? Doesn't some of the responsibility fall on you?

[backinthesaddleagain]

Originally Posted by Deanohh

What if you and everyone else knew that the stairs were poorly maintained and were always icy in spots and nobody ever cleaned them but you decided to use them anyway? Doesn't some of the responsibility fall on you?

I don't think so. My responsibility is to get to work on time and do my work (damn why am I posting on here then?). The employer/facility owner have a responsibility to maintain them, especially if everyone else knew their condition.

At the other extreme we live in a country where I come to your house, maybe to sell fundraising candy bars, unwanted by you, and fall off your steps...

[Snafu]

For those of you who drive on all season tires, changing them to 4 snow tires makes a huge difference when you're driving in the snow. I drive a Ford Crown Vic (rwd). I don't fear driving my car in the snow anymore (Blizzacks) but other drivers are a different story.

Why do people still tailgate during bad weather is beyond me.

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by Reswob

Engine braking in an automatic is negligible (most auto's don't downshift under braking until you've come to a stop or reached below a certain speed). If anything, a 4WD vehicle would be slightly harder to stop due to the extra weight of the 4WD components (more inertia). The negligible engine braking increase probably cancels out the negligible weight increase.

I agree. I drive a Subaru WRX complete with winter tires, and that thing is invincible in the snow....until you try and stop. While you may be able to control your stop better than most other cars that aren't AWD or so equipped with snow tires, the fact remains that you'll be sliding just as far.

There are, however, other ways to avoid hitting things with that much controllability in snow. You just have to know your limitations and play to your strength...which can be counter-intuitive at times.

With regards to the original post; while I don't blame the driver for losing control of her car, I do understand why she was ticketed. Unfortunately, driver training generally under prepares people when it comes to dealing with hazardous road conditions. Even up here in Canada, where we get snowed on for half the year. It is, still, technically her fault, however.

[revstriker]

Interesting thread. I'll offer my $.02:

I grew up in the north east, so driving in the snow was part of learning to drive (in a rear wheel drive manual transmission car no less). I've also driven tractor trailers through the mountains in Europe. So I've driven in all kinds of snowy and icy conditions.

I have heard of people sliding into an intersection or through a stop sign and getting a ticket for something like "failure to control". It happens.

Intersections and stopping points are notorious for being slippery in ice and snow. Always approach these very cautiously. That being said, even if you are going <5mph, your momentum can still slide you further than you planned.

As for the talk on 4 wheel drive, people should be aware that most vehicles on the road don't really have true 4 wheel drive, but rather an all wheel drive. This works great for not getting stuck, but does little for stopping. The only advantage would be that a 4 wheel drive SUV or truck might have more aggressive tires that might be able to bite a little bit better as they are stopping.

My advice to the OP would be to contest the ticket. I would think she would have a very good chance of winning.

[onetruevibe]

Has anyone contested a ticket? I'm wondering if I should tag along (moral support) or let her fly solo? I'm not sure if I'd even be allowed in???

Thanks - you guys/gals are the best!!!

[kkim]

Tag along... being in court is never a pleasant experience.

[Alex]

Can you contest it by mail? California has this great system where you can contest a ticket by mail via a "Trial by Declaration". You basically send in whatever you'd like to say about the ticket, the LEO has to respond by mail with their evidence, and a judge quickly rules. If it is dismissed, you're done. If you're found guilty, you then have the opportunity to request an actual trial, and can contest it in person if you choose. I have had tickets dropped in the past by sending in those forms, and is definitely the easiest way to go if it's available, rather than having to take time off work, etc.

[onetruevibe]

Originally Posted by kkim

Tag along... being in court is never a pleasant experience.

That's exactly what I'm thinking.

Originally Posted by Alex

Can you contest it by mail? California has this great system where you can contest a ticket by mail via a "Trial by Declaration". You basically send in whatever you'd like to say about the ticket, the LEO has to respond by mail with their evidence, and a judge quickly rules. If it is dismissed, you're done. If you're found guilty, you then have the opportunity to request an actual trial, and can contest it in person if you choose. I have had tickets dropped in the past by sending in those forms, and is definitely the easiest way to go if it's available, rather than having to take time off work, etc.

Sounds like a great system! I'll look into it, but I'm not hopeful. The receptionist at the Magistrate's office told my wife that she would receive notification in 3 weeks of when her case would be heard.

It's a (really) small town so, the wheels turn very slowly. Plus, you guys out west have way more bad people than we do so there's additional incentive to speed things along.

[Alex]

Looks like you're out of luck, here's a link that lists the states where this is available; PA isn't one of them.

[Rosie]

Originally Posted by RhinoJC

As far as traveling at a safe speed for the conditions, that's crap. I learned to drive in Chicago during a particularly nasty Chicago winter, I know how to drive in the snow. The only "safe" speed for snow covered roads is 0 MPH.

Amen to that. Lived in Chicago for 5 years and had my ex 4WD SUV slid in an intersection as well. No cops around and no accidents, I was lucky, but I know how difficult it is to control a car in those conditions, regardless of your speed.

[Reswob]

Originally Posted by onetruevibe

Has anyone contested a ticket? I'm wondering if I should tag along (moral support) or let her fly solo? I'm not sure if I'd even be allowed in???

Thanks - you guys/gals are the best!!!

You can go in the courtroom, but you won't talk to the judge. Depending on the county and ticket she may be able to talk to someone before even entering the courtroom and get the ticket reduced.

[CC Cowboy]

Kindergarten kids, bad road conditions, stay home.

[Talonne]

Originally Posted by Snafu

For those of you who drive on all season tires, changing them to 4 snow tires makes a huge difference when you're driving in the snow. I drive a Ford Crown Vic (rwd). I don't fear driving my car in the snow anymore (Blizzacks) but other drivers are a different story.

This. Contest the ticket, and then get some snow tires if you don't have them already. I get pissed off at drivers on all-seasons wobbling around all over the road. If you live in a city with a "real winter", get some real tires!

[zilaniz]

take it to court. I live in PA and it might be different since you are in a small town, instead of philly metro, but where I am from if you get any kind of speeding ticket, you send it back checked not guilty, then when you go to court, the cop pulls you into a little room and offers you a plea deal cause the judges get pissed when when court gets clogged up for speeding tickets ( for example I got a speeding ticket for going 64 in a 35(was a dead straight double lane on both sides road), plead not guilty, went to the court date, cop pulled me in room said if he changes ticket to going 5 over and no points will I settle, I said yes of course and that was that)

Keep in mind this is in philly metro area, huge population, so might be different in a small town court

[backinthesaddleagain]

^^ Wow, I thought you would be brought into a small room and beaten. Just kidding.

[onetruevibe]

My wife will contest her ticket before the magistrate tomorrow morning at 10:00am. I'm going to tag alone for support. She goes armed with a a set of puppy eyes and a couple photos of the snowy intersection.

We don't know what to expect, but I figure the experience itself will be worth the $7 in court fees.

I'll keep you posted!

[gfloyd2002]

Good luck, Brian. We're all rooting for her, and she's got puppy dog eyes and justice on her side.

I have a cynical streak that tells me that the magistrate is going to say "the driver needs to be aware of the road conditions, and shouldn't drive faster than is safe under the conditions of the road. The fact she slid through the intersection says that she was putting herself and her child in danger because she was doing more than the car could handle under the conditions." In California, that is essentially the Basic Speed Law, and justifies almost any ticket written -- I've lost two contested tickets under it, including one where I was driving below posted speed limits (safely, but it was raining) on the freeway and was pulled over because I was young in cool car.

And if the Magistrate does say that, I hope he/she slides through an intersection during the next storm and rear ends a cop car, because fact is there is just sometimes you can't do anything to avoid sliding, especially when the darn city doesn't clear the roads well.

[Jinx250]

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

^^ Wow, I thought you would be brought into a small room and beaten. Just kidding.

No, that's LAPD.

[onetruevibe]

Well, we weren't expecting much, and that's what we got.

The judge ruled in favor of the commonwealth - $110 fine, $7 court fee, and 3 points on her license.

Regardless, it was a good experience for both of us - contesting the ticket. My wife did a really good job - I was very proud of her. The officer and judge asked her some loaded questions and she handled them perfectly.

Often, in situations like this I tend to follow up with a lot of "you should have said this...." Or, "I would have done this...." But in this case, I had nothing to offer.

She rocked it like a repeat offender!

[CThunder-blue]

dang that really sucks. kudos to your wife for handling herself tho

[Blackwidow]

what did the judge say? she was driving too fast for the conditions? details please!

[onetruevibe]

Originally Posted by Blackwidow

what did the judge say? she was driving too fast for the conditions? details please!

The judge didn't say much. It pretty much came down to the judge taking the cops word over my wife's. Which isn't too surprising since it's a small town (local cop and local judge). Their wives prolly play bridge together every Wednesday night.

In fact, in retrospect, it all seemed very scripted - like they'd reviewed this same case 100 times before! I'm sure they have.

Anyway - what really sealed the deal was when the cop said. "As I watched her approach the intersection I knew she was going too fast to stop for the red light...regardless of the conditions." This was frustrating because it was a damning statement not based on fact. So...this statement on top of the fact that she did actually enter the intersection against the red light carried enough momentum to put "The Book" in the air and bounce it off my wife's lovely head.

Either way, I am proud of her for sticking up for what she believed was right - even though it didn't turn out in her favor.

[gfloyd2002]

[Ramen]

You fought the law and the law won.

Take pride that you were in the right, and the State cares not - it just wants the cash so it may feed itself.

Stay frosty.

[GeneJunkie]

Originally Posted by onetruevibe

Anyway - what really sealed the deal was when the cop said. "As I watched her approach the intersection I knew she was going too fast to stop for the red light...regardless of the conditions." This was frustrating because it was a damning statement not based on fact. So...this statement on top of the fact that she did actually enter the intersection against the red light carried enough momentum to put "The Book" in the air and bounce it off my wife's lovely head.

I don't understand how that statement isn't based on fact. I know many cops, especially the CHP officers here are trained to be able to track speed without using a radar gun (I know one of those officers personally). Physics doesn't change, based on their training, plus distance it is possible to estimate the amount of time it would take to stop.

Things happen, at least the fine was only $110, the 3 points suck tho. In Cali a red light ticket is well over $200, plus the traffic school to take off the point ends up being around another $100.. to pay the court and then to pay the school which then pays the court again to process the certificate.

[onetruevibe]

Originally Posted by GeneJunkie

I don't understand how that statement isn't based on fact. I know many cops, especially the CHP officers here are trained to be able to track speed without using a radar gun (I know one of those officers personally).

Well, I know his statement isn't based on fact because the fact is that she only travelling 10 mph in the 25 mph zone (as per speedo reading).

I don't know...I guess I am usually very careful not to interpret opinion as fact. I tend to look at the facts first and then assess the value the opinion. In this case, the facts reduce his opinion to pretty much worthless in my estimation.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that training is legit...I'm just thinking maybe this officer missed the training.

[onetruevibe]

Originally Posted by gfloyd2002

[Rosie]

Originally Posted by onetruevibe

Either way, I am proud of her for sticking up for what she believed was right - even though it didn't turn out in her favor.

This deserves a

[Reswob]

Originally Posted by GeneJunkie

I don't understand how that statement isn't based on fact. I know many cops, especially the CHP officers here are trained to be able to track speed without using a radar gun (I know one of those officers personally). Physics doesn't change, based on their training, plus distance it is possible to estimate the amount of time it would take to stop.

Things happen, at least the fine was only $110, the 3 points suck tho. In Cali a red light ticket is well over $200, plus the traffic school to take off the point ends up being around another $100.. to pay the court and then to pay the school which then pays the court again to process the certificate.

Well if she was travelling too fast to stop for the light in dry conditions, it's a pretty safe bet that in snow/ice she would have coasted right through the intersection and then some. Since it sounds like she only slid a little ways into the intersection, it's a pretty safe bet the cop was full of **** for saying what he said.