Ticket for Sliding into an Intersection

[onetruevibe]

So my wife calls me at work yesterday sobbing - after dropping the kids off at kindergarten she slid her SUV through a traffic light and into an intersection - one of our three small town police officers saw the incident and issued her a $110 ticket. Fortunately there was no accident.

The language on the ticket reads:
"Diver entered intersection controlled by a traffic signal nearly causing an accident."

Don't get me wrong, I understand that by choosing to drive in snowy weather you have to be willing to assume some additional risk and the possible consequences of taking such a risk. But something stinks here:

1. My family was put at risk by not cancelling school and making them venture out onto the roads.
2. The roads were not sufficiently cleared (a service my tax dollars pay for) for such a venture.
3. My wife almost crashes and gets a ticket (her first) as a result.

Auxiliary annoyances:
1. The cop made my wife cry
2. The ticket doesn't mention anything about the poorly treated roads.

It's not the $110, but a principle here that might be worth fighting for.

What do you think?

Also - I've never contested a ticket in PA before; I'd welcome any comments on that process.

[dubojr1]

It does seem to me you have some argument to the road conditions. I would say contest it. It would be one of those tickets where I would wonder if I could have had it thrown out in court. GL!

[Alex]

I dunno, it sounds like she was driving too fast for the conditions, and didn't have full control of her vehicle, right? It's fortunate that she didn't make contact with anything, but also unfortunate that it happened right in front of a cop who witnessed it.

[bob706]

How far into the intersection did she slide?

[onetruevibe]

Originally Posted by Alex

I dunno, it sounds like she was driving too fast for the conditions, and didn't have full control of her vehicle, right? It's fortunate that she didn't make contact with anything, but also unfortunate that it happened right in front of a cop who witnessed it.

You're absolutely right, Alex. She clearly was driving too fast for the conditions, not being able to stop in time. However, in her defense, how can one ever be certain how fast is "too fast" in any condition less than perfect? You have to best-guess it, and her best-guess was a bit off.

My rub is, with two kids in the car, she shouldn't have to "best-guess" it. She shouldn't be on the road at all. But with only a two-hour delay that would not be possible without generating an illegal absence for my kids for skipping kindergarten (which is punishable by an extra repetition of Twinkle, Twinkle and three ABCs)

Originally Posted by bob706

How far into the intersection did she slide?

I wasn't there, but she said something like 5 feet.

[mrlmd]

Fight it. drag the cop into court to explain it.
And you can skid 5 feet going 2 mph too, too fast is all relative and not absolute. The judge will probably toss it out. Not only will you save $110 if he does, but no points on the license too. The judge may side with you also just because you are willing to show up and protest this ridiculous ticket. Is the cop just trying to meet his quota instead of using common sense and maybe just issuing a warning to be more careful or slow down? I would go to court over this.

[Alex]

If it was 5 feet past the line, and she didn't hit anything or cause anyone else to hit anything, I do wonder if justice wouldn't have been better served with a warning rather than a points-paying ticket. Seems a little over the top; nobody likes driving in slippery conditions.

[Reswob]

Sorry, but if you live in PA and can't drive in the snow, you deserve a ticket for travelling too fast for the conditions and running a red light.

[onetruevibe]

Originally Posted by Reswob

Sorry, but if you live in PA and can't drive in the snow, you deserve a ticket for travelling too fast for the conditions and running a red light.

I would consider your response if you actually lived in PA.

[CThunder-blue]

Originally Posted by mrlmd

Fight it. drag the cop into court to explain it.
And you can skid 5 feet going 2 mph too, too fast is all relative and not absolute. The judge will probably toss it out. Not only will you save $110 if he does, but no points on the license too. The judge may side with you also just because you are willing to show up and protest this ridiculous ticket. Is the cop just trying to meet his quota instead of using common sense and maybe just issuing a warning to be more careful or slow down? I would go to court over this.

I agree. I used to live near St. Louis and one winter, I drove my dad out to the airport and it was snowing heavily. Even tho the trucks and snow plows were out in force, it didn't help. On my way back, I saw the red light and hit the brakes, but the truck hydroplaned in the snow into the intersection. I was already half way thru so just kept on going to keep out of traffic. Sometimes the conditions are just that no matter how hard you try, accidents happen.

I would argue the ticket that your wife did not intentionally try to run the red light, nor were the conditions in her favor. I would also mention that she has a spotless driving record and it's way out of character that she would skid into an intersection. At the very least, if PA has some sort of traffic school, this will keep the points off the record and if the judge is nice enough, maybe he'll reduce the fine. If the principle is worth it, hire a lawyer. Good luck!

[backinthesaddleagain]

In rhode island there is a good driver privilege you can claim (no moving offenses in 3 years). Maybe your state has something similar?

[Blackwidow]

fight it...thats a bunch of BS!!!! Its the end of the year and cops need to punch in as many tickets as possible. I just got a parking ticket parked in front of my own house. Pretty pathetic!!

[kkim]

if the sliding was solely due to the weather conditions, you have to ask... was everyone else sliding around as well? if not, your wife was doing something the other drivers were not to result in a slide.

[00NissanNinja]

That is why I hate how if you live somewhere where it snows a lot you are forced to drive in it. Its better for me to come to work/school alive than to risk my life driving around in deep snow, but I guess no one understands that. I really hate my school since even when there is beyond a foot of snow and a lot other places close, I still have to drive to school in that much snow. I remember it took me 3 or 4 hours to get to school one time because of the weather (I left 40 minutes early to and I still was really late). If the weather is that ridiculous let me stay home. After that I just said it isn't worth it to drive in weather that bad I've already had quite a few people nearly hit me.

But yeah fight it

[highpsiguy]

All of the municipalities are broke. They are ticketing anything and everything to generate revenue. Unfortunately, you may have to wait all day to have your case called due to high writing of tickets and people contesting them. What is your time worth?

[Reswob]

Originally Posted by onetruevibe

I would consider your response if you actually lived in PA.

I learned to drive in CT. In January.

If you don't know how much slower than usual you need to drive in poor conditions, and how much longer it takes to stop, you shouldn't drive. What if there had a been a car in front of your wife? Maybe a ticket will have her rethink driving too fast for the conditions (or keeping the kids home).

[Sailariel]

I am very used to driving in the snow having lived in Syracuse NY, Bonners Ferry, Idaho, and now, Maine. If they delayed school for two hours, the roads were nasty. Unless your SUV has 4WD, when your wheels lock up, you will slide. Those things are heavy. I will not drive my 2WD Suburban in the snow. I would definitely fight the ticket. Let the LEO explain his rationale for issuing a ticket, and let the judge decide.

[ithaca00]

Originally Posted by 00NissanNinja

That is why I hate how if you live somewhere where it snows a lot you are forced to drive in it. Its better for me to come to work/school alive than to risk my life driving around in deep snow, but I guess no one understands that.

Move. That fixes your problem.

Personally I miss driving in snow and all that it entails... But that was in a small town so

[Deanohh]

If conditions prevent you from controlling your vehicle, don't drive it. So what if the school stays open. You made a choice to drive. You are lucky there was noone there to run into.

[00NissanNinja]

Originally Posted by ithaca00

Move. That fixes your problem.

Personally I miss driving in snow and all that it entails... But that was in a small town so

Pay my rent since you have a job then and I would certainly move. I'm not a moving bank that can buy and move where ever he pleases. If you are saying move out of colorado, I am most certainly doing that once I have the means to do so. Snow is fine with me so long as there is no one else around but there will never be empty roads where I live and commute.
Certainly don't drive if you can't control your vehicle. You can always find something else to take you where you need to get

[onetruevibe]

She stopped in at the local Magistrate's office this morning and contested the ticket. She'll be contacted within three weeks to have her case reviewed.

Thanks everyone for weighing in - it was interesting to read everyone's perspectives. I'll keep you posted on how this turns out.

Either way, it will be a valuable learning experience for my wife as both a driver and as an engaged citizen.

Brian

[Blackwidow]

i just want to remind everyone how awesome Los Angeles is.

ok, thank you! and have a great day

i'm such a brat!

[00NissanNinja]

Originally Posted by Blackwidow

i just want to remind everyone how awesome Los Angeles is.

ok, thank you! and have a great day

i'm such a brat!

I wish I lived somewhere near there, you don't have to remind me how nice it is lol

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Blackwidow

i just want to remind everyone how awesome Los Angeles is.

True, but you forgot to mention what the roads look like here out West with the first rains of the season, with overturned cars and fender-benders everywhere you look. Imagine if Californians *had* to drive in real low-traction situations like snow/ice.

[kkim]

Originally Posted by Blackwidow

i just want to remind everyone how awesome Los Angeles is.

ok, thank you! and have a great day

i'm such a brat!

I agree with everything you say in your post, except the part about LA being awesome.

it sucks living here in Hawaii.

[Flashmonkey]

I did this once....except my light was green...and it wasn't a cop...it was a firetruck barrelling through the intersection. Also, I didn't stop...I slid, found a big fat "GMC" logo staring me in the face through my driver's side window, and released the brakes and got the hell out of there. Definitely a close call, and I'm glad the driver of the firetruck managed to stop otherwise I'd be dead.

Good times.

To this day I do NOT know how I didn't notice a huge, colourful, noisy firetruck, complete with flashing lights, going through an intersection. Mind you this WAS during a blizzard. But whatever...I'm better than that.

[silver_bullet]

Not to sound like a dick BUT, last week a kid in his parents car slid into me while I was at a stop sign. He was going too fast for conditions which looks to be the case. He was found at fault so his insurance is fixing my car. If they were to go with the approach "the roads sucked so you don't get any money" I'd be pissed. Just saying, though she didn't cause an accident she was still driving too fast for the conditions or didn't have adequit tires for the season.

[Reswob]

Originally Posted by Sailariel

I am very used to driving in the snow having lived in Syracuse NY, Bonners Ferry, Idaho, and now, Maine. If they delayed school for two hours, the roads were nasty. Unless your SUV has 4WD, when your wheels lock up, you will slide. Those things are heavy. I will not drive my 2WD Suburban in the snow. I would definitely fight the ticket. Let the LEO explain his rationale for issuing a ticket, and let the judge decide.

4WD has nothing to do with braking...

[sombo]

Ok, for all those that don't live, have never lived, and never will live in PA and therefore know nothing of the roads, I say stop putting blame where it doesn't belong.

I lived in PA for far too long imo and drove in every condition that PA has to offer on all kinds of roads. Until you drive on a road that looks and feels ok and then suddenly w/o warning find yourself sliding at 5mph for 30ft...... DON'T BE CRITICIZING WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW ABOUT!!

What most of you don't realize is that PA is voted year after year as one of the absolute worst roads in the USA. The state uses the least affective road paving there is because it's super cheap and easy to put down. This has the problem of not effectively channeling water off the road. It's also not properly insulated either which causes patches of ice and compacted snowy/slushy ice to form that makes it like driving on a frozen lake regardless of speed, vehicle, or tires.

PA also has one of the most poorly run DOT plowing agencies in the country. In 2008 with weather services giving a 2 week warning of a blizzard for valentines day, Penndot was "unprepared" for the "sudden storm". Hundreds of people got stranded on the highways for more then 24hrs because they flash froze with the snow due to not being properly prepared for the storm. The highways ended up having several inches of snow covering a couple inches of ice. You only knew about the ice after either losing control or from the cleanup crews breaking it up.

I myself remember one winter approaching a light I knew quite well. The road looked fine, it wasn't snowing but it had been wet earlier. Was coming to light at a slow speed and slowing down when all of a sudden all traction was gone and I slid halfway through the intersection at no more then 10mph after sliding a good 15' up to the light. It was black ice, a condition you can't see till you hit it. There was a cop sitting right there who saw the whole thing and didn't even give it a second thought.

So yes, I 100% say to fight it. I know the PA roads this time of year and it's all guess work as to whether this 10' of pavement is good or pure ice hidden under snow. Small town cops tend to be one of two extremes. Either friendly and let most things go. Or (like it sounds in this case) an extreme hard ass who tickets anything just to show his power.

[RhinoJC]

Not sure how it is in other states, but IL has time of day and road conditions listed on the ticket. Any time the road conditions aren't ideal and a ticket is issued for something like this, take a picture of the roads with both your vehicle and the LEOs vehicle in the picture.

As far as traveling at a safe speed for the conditions, that's crap. I learned to drive in Chicago during a particularly nasty Chicago winter, I know how to drive in the snow. The only "safe" speed for snow covered roads is 0 MPH.

[tapdiggy]

Wow; that is unfortunate, to get ticketed for something that occurs so often on snowy roads.

Meh.

Probably wasn't too pleasant for your wife as she was sliding. Is she going to take a lesson from the experience and be extra-cautious in snow? The well-being of your kids and your wife is way more important than a fine, however unfair it may be.

[bob706]

Originally Posted by sombo

pa is voted year after year as one of the absolute worst roads in the usa.

+1000000.

[onetruevibe]

While she was only driving 10mph in a 25mph zone, I don't think anyone would disagree that she was driving too fast for the conditions (or did she not apply the brakes soon enough? )

However, we can only say this with confidence because we have the benefit of knowing the outcome - she slid after applying the brakes and was unable to stop within the distance remaining before entering the intersection.

If the light had been green and she had continued through the intersection without trying to stop, could we say, with the same amount of confidence, that she was driving too fast for the conditions? I don't think so. You would have nothing concrete to base that assumption on - it would be speculation.

In fact, it is this same speculation that guides our judgement when each of us gets behind the wheel (or handle bars) and the conditions are less than perfect. We have no way of knowing what hides beneath the snow-covered roads or how our vehicle will behave when hitting the brakes. We have to make a best-guess. Experience certainly can help in these situations, but if you think experience exempts you from risk, you're deceiving yourself.

Anyway,to put this thread back on track (sorry for the pun):

The question isn't whether or not she was driving too fast for the conditions but if should she have gotten the ticket. Speed wasn't the infraction, it was for entering the intersection.

[JMcDonald]

Sombo, that all sounds terrible, but if all those things are so obvious to people in PA, then she was still technically driving too fast for conditions she knew could exist. It's not like she was driving on a warm summer day and slipped on some ice spilled from a city truck. She had to had have some idea that the roads could have been slick.


I think the ticket was a little overkill, and a warning could have easily sufficed for the circumstances, but on the other hand I agree with the logic that if a car had been in front of her, it would have been much worse, you know? Of course, had a car been in front of her she likely would have been more careful anyways (especially with a good driving record and kids in the car), so I'd still say a warning and a "hey, slow down a little earlier" would have been just fine.

I am not saying your wife is a bad driver or anything, but you have to accept responsibility for things that you do wrong, whether or not it was by complete accident. I've spun out or skidded into intersections before, but I understand if I were to have hit someone it would have been my fault. That's just how it works.

And btw, the southern plains are notorious for black ice. Warm enough during the day for liquid rain, which then freezes overnight. One time I was coming back on a few-hour drive on a damp highway at around 70mph. It had sprinkled off an on throughout the day, but it had been in the mid-40s and didn't even cross my mind. However, by about 1am it had gotten cold enough that I went over a short, flat bridge over a creek and the rear end glided out to the right about a foot before regaining traction on solid ground. It was scary, and complete surprising, but if I had wrecked I understand I would have been at fault.


Don't take it so personal. Nobody is judging your wife, or saying she is negligent, or saying it doesn't suck to have gotten the ticket. Just, looking at it objectively, she is ultimately responsible for what happened.

Good luck with the contesting.

[backinthesaddleagain]

Originally Posted by sombo

Ok, Until you drive on a road that looks and feels ok and then suddenly w/o warning find yourself sliding at 5mph for 30ft...... DON'T BE CRITICIZING WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW ABOUT!!

It's also not properly insulated either which causes patches of ice and compacted snowy/slushy ice to form that makes it like driving on a frozen lake regardless of speed, vehicle, or tires.

Two good points. I have sometimes found here in RI that the snow covered part of the road is actually the better part (maybe because I see the snow and drive slower), but then you hit what appears to be a plowed to the surface section and its a thin layer of ice or very compacted snow and traction drops significantly.

[backinthesaddleagain]

Originally Posted by Reswob

4WD has nothing to do with braking...

I think I know what Alex is saying (not to speak for him). Agreed 4WD or AWD has no effect on braking (with the brakes locked). However I do think that engine braking in a 4WD vehicle is more effective than 2WD engine braking. Its probably a combination of added friction/drivetrain resistance (that costs us that couple of MPG), and that backing off on the gas is slowing all the wheels.

[onetruevibe]

Originally Posted by JMcDonald

Don't take it so personal. Nobody is judging your wife, or saying she is negligent, or saying it doesn't suck to have gotten the ticket. Just, looking at it objectively, she is ultimately responsible for what happened.

No worries, folks. I'm not taking any of this personally. I'm genuinely interested in everyone's perspectives on the issue - that's what I created the post.

[backinthesaddleagain]

First year of marriage and first new car. It starts snowing during the work day. Doing 15 on a 25 mph road. Gentle corner, corner is probably an overstatement, anyway slid into curb, bent strut, axle pops out of tranny (front wheel drive). State cop says "you've obviously been driving too fast for the conditions." Thinking there was probably a layer of ice under the snow in that section of the road.

[Sailariel]

Had a full sized Blazer with 4WD when I lived in Syracuse. Seemed to stop fairly well on snowy roads. The Suburban with 2WD is absolutely terible in the snow.

[Blackwidow]

i like how everyone throws in the "what if" situations...bottom line is that the law doesn't judge based on "what if's", it judges based on facts and actual occurances.

1. she was not going fast
2. she did not get a ticket for speeding
3. she did not hit anyone
4. road conditions were bad

bottom line is this is an unfair ticket, and by all means it should be heard by a judge. Is she responsible for the car sliding, NO, its the city's fault for not preparing the roads for the harsh weathers PA gets.

There is no such thing as driving at the right speed on snow/ice covered roads, no matter how fast or slow you drive, you still have a chance of sliding..PERIOD. You see people sliding on ice while walking, and they are going what 1 mph on foot? Same thing with the car, how is one to know that the road they are about to drive on will make the car slide? If wifey had hit someone, then yes, her insurance should cover it, but thats not what has happened here.