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Old February 26th, 2021, 04:59 PM   #1
Edge Genesis
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Question IGNITION SWITCH BYPASS-To-3pSt

Apologies for the lengthy thread. I have a couple of parts bikes ninja 250s. None of witch have the ignition. I do have the end of the pigtail that plugs into the ignition. The ignition has been removed. Trying to attach this 3pst switch to it in order to power the bikes. I believe thatís the only way to get them running. I have fuel, and the engines will turn over. But without a type of ignition switch I donít think they will turn on. I have a printed out paper of the wiring. I have the 100 ohm resistor. Iíve connected Wht/Br to one set of terminals, Rd/Rd Bl to one, and Wht Bk/Wht Gr/and Gy to the other. I have the courses on the on side and the loads on the off side. I have the resister in between the Grey wire. I have continuity between all wires, except for the grey. I assume because of the resistor. I donít know whether I just donít have the wires hooked up correctly or perhaps I should just connect the grey directly to the terminal from the grey? Thanks in advance, all!
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Old February 26th, 2021, 07:52 PM   #2
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Hi Dalton and welcome to Ninjette!

I take it your switch has 6-terminals?
Can you post diagram of how you have them connected?
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Old February 26th, 2021, 08:20 PM   #3
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Unhappy

I am using a phone atm. Can I add pictures with it? Sorry I am complete noob on this atm... yes it does have 6 terminals and I will add a picture of the diagram I am following as well. I have tired nearly ever combination I can think of and I get nothing.
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Old February 26th, 2021, 09:30 PM   #4
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
To post pictures, you can upload them to local profile here. Then embed in posts.

1. go to user-control panel
2. go to "show all albums" link in lower right
3. click on "Add Album" in lower left
4. give it name -> Submit
5. click "Upload pictures"
6. click "choose file" and select photos to upload
7. finally "upload pictures" -> Save Changes

8. Then click photo you want to embed
9. highlight and copy BBC code of photo: [img ]...[ /img]
10. copy and paste that into your post.

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Old February 26th, 2021, 09:52 PM   #5
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Hopefully Iíve done this correctly.. :D

[/IMG]
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Old February 26th, 2021, 09:54 PM   #6
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Maybe this time?..

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Old February 26th, 2021, 09:56 PM   #7
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Okay cool, thank you so much! Iíll send the rest!

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Old February 26th, 2021, 09:57 PM   #8
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Old February 26th, 2021, 10:01 PM   #9
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Old February 26th, 2021, 10:04 PM   #10
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Can someone please confirm. Does the black lines and dots represent different circuits? If so thatís how I have it wired. For example Br and white are on opposite terminals. I also have the ones that are source on the ďonĒ position and the ones that are load are on the ďoffĒ position. I have tried so many combinations. Apparently all but the correct one.
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Old February 27th, 2021, 10:08 AM   #11
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Yes sort of. The dot & lines shows connections switch makes.

Which year is your bike? You posted this in new-gen 2008-2012 but you're using wiring-diagram for pre-gen 1988-2007.

When you said you have "ends of pigtail that plugs into ignition", do you mean you have big plug that connects to main harness with free wire ends instead of ignition switch? In which case, wire colours change after going through that connector. And new-gen colours aren't same as pre-gen diagram you're using.

You need 7 separate wires from harness. Can't join those three red wires together, it'll bypass fusebox and defeats purpose of on/off switch.

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Old February 27th, 2021, 11:01 AM   #12
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Ok, here's how you want to have your switch wired:


There's 3 separate input wires going through different fuses and 4 outputs.
Grey ignition-wire should share same output-terminal as brown wire going to fuse-box.

You want to test for power on harness-side of ignition-switch connector by back-probing terminals. Should match state shown in table above.


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Old February 27th, 2021, 11:06 AM   #13
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Do usual test for spark:

1. unplug spark-plug wire
2. insert spare plug
3. touch/ground case of plug to valve-cover bolt
4. push start-button

Do you see spark at plug?
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Old February 27th, 2021, 12:01 PM   #14
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My apologies for that, they are all pre gen. Yes, itís the pigtail that plugs into the harness. You mentioned having all of those red wires together. There are is only one. If youíre referring to the sketch from the side of the diagram, you can ignore that. I tried getting some advice from a mechanic but nonetheless!
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Old February 27th, 2021, 12:06 PM   #15
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Will there be any way to get a Neutral light to show up? I would prefer if I could have all of these wires and their jobs working so I can properly test these bikes. No use in ordering a real ignition switch if here are further problems. Plus I would like to minimize damage to the harness. I just figure there had to be a way to simulate a ignition with this pigtail, switch, and resister. Iíve yet to get spark on the combinations Iíve tired and the start button seems to never have power to it either. But I know that power is running through the bikes because I can turn the engine over by throwing the starting solenoid.
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Old February 27th, 2021, 12:33 PM   #16
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
You're pretty close on ignition switch. Just ignore colour-change on pigtail section between harness connector and ignition switch. Test functionality by measuring for power on harness side of connector. should have power on all terminals when key is ON. You should have lower voltage on grey wire of 10v or less, otherwise IC-igniter won't trigger spark.

Neutral light needs to have neutral switch working. Test it by unplugging it and measuring resistance between switch and chassis ground.

Then test neutral bulb in clocks by inserting nail into unplugged connector and touching it to ground. Neutral light should turn on.

With those tests, you should be able to determine if neutral switch or bulb is bad... But.... There's also wiring in between..

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Old February 27th, 2021, 12:40 PM   #17
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Start-button very important as same circuit powers ignition coils. No power on start-button means no power to coils. Have you pulled every fuse and measure resistance across its legs? If I had penny for every time I've heard ,"fuse looks fine" but actually didn't conduct electricity...


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Old February 27th, 2021, 02:52 PM   #18
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I just tested some wires and anything I could think to test. I have continuity between all wires. I tested from the switch as well. When I turn the jumper on and supply power. I do not get any volts through the hot wire or anything for that matter. But I believe that is because the bike still thinks it isnít powered on.
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Old February 27th, 2021, 02:56 PM   #19
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I will have to check resistance on the fuses. I just check continuity. I know the starter motor is good, it rolls the engine over, I know the solenoid is good, I know the wires in the kill switch/starter button is good. It seems to me that the only problem is the bike just will not acknowledge being turned on no matter how I wire it. One thing worth mentioning. I checked the clutch safety switch and it isnít not good as the little pin is broken, as far as the neutral, at list an oil light should come up or maybe the horn would work. I havenít checked the kickstand as it has been removed 0-0. Other than all that. I am at a complete loss. Only other thing I can think to do is park is right beside one of the other 250ís and just cross hook the ignition to see if that will power the bike. If not then Iíll be... pulling some hair out. Lol
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Old February 27th, 2021, 03:33 PM   #20
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
You're skipping too many steps and leaving stuff out. All it takes is just ONE item left unchecked for bike not to run.

On power side of circuits, stop measuring continuity and measure voltage. Give me voltage readings on following wires on harness side of ignition-switch connector:

W = ??? volts
Br = ??? volts
R/Bl = ??? volts
R = ??? volts
W/Bk = ??? volts
G = ??? volts
Gr = ??? volts


Measuring continuity is for ground side of circuits. Better to measure resistance because there's difference between 0-ohms or 100-ohms or 1000-ohms.

Neutral-swt to ground = ??? Ohms
Kickstand-swt to ground = ??? Ohms
Clutch-swt to ground = ??? Ohms



Motorcycle circuits are not binary like computers with on/off all-or-nothing TTL levels. there's many shades of grey. Speaking of which, that grey wire is most important part and you need at least +2v differential between that and battery voltage.

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Old February 27th, 2021, 03:34 PM   #21
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There is no voltage running through the wires. Because my little wiring job doesnít work. So the bike doesnít think itís on. So I have no voltage through the wires.
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Old February 27th, 2021, 03:47 PM   #22
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge Genesis View Post
I just tested some wires and anything I could think to test. I have continuity between all wires. I tested from the switch as well. When I turn the jumper on and supply power. I do not get any volts through the hot wire or anything for that matter. But I believe that is because the bike still thinks it isnít powered on.


Which wire is this of which circuit is this?
Which junction are you measuring?
Key ON or OFF?
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Old February 27th, 2021, 03:49 PM   #23
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge Genesis View Post
There is no voltage running through the wires. Because my little wiring job doesn’t work. So the bike doesn’t think it’s on. So I have no voltage through the wires.
No, your wiring is fine and quite well-done actually! Let's make this simple and start from very beginning. Gimme just ONE voltage reading. No wiring involved.

1. What is voltage of battery measured at battery terminals?

You can just post picture of meter-reading of battery voltage if you want. One thing that helps speed things up is to use test-leads with alligator clip to keep black/negative probe of meter connected to battery negative terminal.


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Old February 27th, 2021, 04:36 PM   #24
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Next:

2. measure voltage at big B terminal on starter solenoid. Voltage = ???



3. measure voltage at fuse inlet. Voltage = ???



4. measure voltage at fuse's outlet leg. Voltage = ???




Electricity flow is like water and pipes. We are tracing from source (battery) down all little pipes and wires to various destinations. Where voltage disappears shows break/fault.

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Old February 27th, 2021, 04:59 PM   #25
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
5. measure solenoid output power at upper-right terminal. volts = ???



6. measure power at WHITE wire by back-probing terminal at harness ig-switch connector. Might be in different position on your pre-gen harness connector. volts = ???



So far we've measured power (water flow) at points that are on all the time. Doesn't matter what's downstream, with or without ignition-switch. Lack of power at any of these test points will prevent bike from running. They should ALL measure exact same voltage as measured at start (battery +positive terminal).

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Old February 27th, 2021, 05:13 PM   #26
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Okay I will, itíll have to be tomorrow. Sun has already set on me. Thank you for your advice and I really appreciate the help! Thank you for the compliment on the wires as well!
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Old February 28th, 2021, 07:42 AM   #27
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
You're welcome! Wiring is nice and tidy, except for that one loose wire. Did you run out of terminals? What you can do is wrap it in clockwise direction so it doesn't loosen when you tighten screw.

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Old February 28th, 2021, 11:22 AM   #28
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
When measuring voltage at starter-solenoid terminal B, if you don't have voltage, stop, you've found problem: B and M connections are reversed.

1. Disconnect battery +positive cable
2. Disconnect cable at B terminal
3. Disconnect cable at M terminal
4. Don't let go of it and immediately attach to B terminal
5. Attach remaining cable to M terminal
6. Connect battery +positive cable

Go back and repeat tests from step #1 above.

Here's similar case where guy refused to believe that his cables were on solenoid backwards: https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=345904

Thing to note is that terminals B and M at starter-solenoid are not identical and interchangeable. Just because you can connect them with needle-nose pliers and get starter-motor to run, does not mean you can connect them any which way. Battery +positive cable must be attached to B-terminal. Starter-motor must be connected to M-terminal. There's absolutely zero way around this with any other configuration that'll work. That's because it's B-terminal that sends power through 30-amp main-fuse to ignition-switch, which then powers rest of bike: lights, ignition-coils, IC-ignition, start-button, starter-relay, starter-solenoid, starter-motor.

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Old February 28th, 2021, 04:47 PM   #29
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
If you don't want to measure voltage, it's OK. Some people just can't or don't want to do it (we have support-group for this). You can make just ONE continuity measurement instead. Test continuity between WHITE wire terminal at ignition-switch connector (yours may be different position) to battery +positive battery terminal. That should be one continuous circuit that supplies power to entire bike. Lack of continuity in that segment is why you don't have power anywhere. Because battery cable is connected to wrong terminal at starter solenoid.

Measure continuity between these two points:


to

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Old February 28th, 2021, 09:03 PM   #30
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Unhappy

Sorry for the late reply. I have 12.74V at the terminals when battery is connected. I followed the wire. From terminals to solenoid I have 12.74, then bridging the solenoid there are 12.74, then to the start motor there is 12,74. So I have voltage running to the starter motor. I then tested the White hot wire and the brown. From the terminal to the junction box I have 12.74, then from the terminal to the pigtail side of the harness, still on the white wire I have 12.74. I did the same for the brown wire, first to the junction, then to the pigtail. Still 12.74V. I also tested the grey and the other Hotwire (black/white.) same thing. So then I tested to the starter button. I got 12.74 on all of the wires except two. But neither ran to the kill switch or starter button. I believe they were grounds or the two that plug under the switch on the handle bar? After that I connected my little switch apparatus. Still got 12.74 volts on the end of the switch for all the wires that were connected. I remembered you mentioned there should be a voltage difference between the grey and the rest of the wires. There was not. So with all that being said. I basically have voltage through out the whole bike. At least to the starter motor, junction box, ignition pigtail (outlet and inlet) and to the kill switch/starter button.
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Old February 28th, 2021, 09:03 PM   #31
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Also if you are sending pictures. I cannot see them. I only see large white boxes.
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Old February 28th, 2021, 09:07 PM   #32
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And no I did not run out of terminals. I tried spliced that wire to the two post to see if that would do anything when hooked up. Maybe one other thing worth mentioning. The way the switch is wired currently. I have the grey/brown together on one terminal and the white/white black on another. They are both on the ďonĒ side of the switch. Whether or not I had the switch on or off. I was still getting voltage readings on them.
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Old February 28th, 2021, 09:08 PM   #33
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I will have to check the solenoid wires tomorrow.
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Old February 28th, 2021, 09:54 PM   #34
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge Genesis View Post
I will have to check the solenoid wires tomorrow.
No need if your starter is spinning when you push start-button. This shows power to bike's electronics is OK. Much better than yesterday when you had no power at all. Good job!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge Genesis View Post
Also if you are sending pictures. I cannot see them. I only see large white boxes.
What browser are you using? It may have security feature blocking cross-domain links. Which is blocking my images coming from Google Drive. I'll upload them here.

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Old February 28th, 2021, 10:11 PM   #35
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Safari, Iím not all that sure that it would be the solenoid wires. As two of the bikes Iíve been working on have the same problem. No ignition, engine will crank, just no spark
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Old February 28th, 2021, 10:33 PM   #36
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge Genesis View Post
And no I did not run out of terminals. I tried spliced that wire to the two post to see if that would do anything when hooked up. Maybe one other thing worth mentioning. The way the switch is wired currently. I have the grey/brown together on one terminal and the white/white black on another. They are both on the “on” side of the switch. Whether or not I had the switch on or off. I was still getting voltage readings on them.
View switch diagram I re-uploaded above. There are three separate inputs and 4 outputs.

White and white/black should be on separate input terminals as their outputs are different circuits.

Yes, brown & grey goes together.

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Old February 28th, 2021, 10:43 PM   #37
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge Genesis View Post
...So then I tested to the starter button. I got 12.74 on all of the wires except two. But neither ran to the kill switch or starter button. I believe they were grounds or the two that plug under the switch on the handle bar?
What colours are these two wires? There's no grounds on right-side controls, just one power-circuit with switches in series. You need to turn ON kill-switch to get power coming out of it. Then this power goes into start-button. Then press ON start-button to measure power leaving it. That's OK, don't have to measure if starter runs when you push start-button.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge Genesis View Post
After that I connected my little switch apparatus. Still got 12.74 volts on the end of the switch for all the wires that were connected. I remembered you mentioned there should be a voltage difference between the grey and the rest of the wires. There was not. So with all that being said. I basically have voltage through out the whole bike. At least to the starter motor, junction box, ignition pigtail (outlet and inlet) and to the kill switch/starter button.
Good, all ignition-switch terminals having power at harness connector with key/switch ON is correct.

However, grey-wire having same voltage can mean other end at IC-ignitor connector is not connected.

1. measure continuity/resistance between grey-terminal at your switch and grey-terminal at IC-ignitor connector. Is this continuous circuit?

2. pre-1995 ignitors didn't use grey security wire. What's part# on your ignitor?
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Old February 28th, 2021, 10:48 PM   #38
DannoXYZ
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge Genesis View Post
Safari, I’m not all that sure that it would be the solenoid wires. As two of the bikes I’ve been working on have the same problem. No ignition, engine will crank, just no spark
So you've tested for spark by grounding spark-plug case to engine and cranking?

1. Might be resistor issue. With switch/key ON, measure voltage by back-probing grey-wire terminal at iC-ignitor connector (plugged in). If you have 10v or less going into IC-ignitor, then security-feature is working. If not, you may want to use 150-200ohm resistor until voltage is less than 10v. Provided of course your ignitors are 1995+.

2. With switch/key ON, measure voltage at each primary-terminal of both ignition coils (4 readings). Volts = ???

3. Measure resistance of crank pickup-coil. Ohms = ??? Ignitor won't trigger coil to spark if it's not seeing crank spin.
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Old February 28th, 2021, 11:03 PM   #39
Edge Genesis
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Okay, awesome. I got all of the pictures. Iíll do little changing of the wires tomorrow and some more test. When I said I had power to starter and starter button I only meant I have bolts running to them. Iím really not even sure where the Igniter is located. Iíll have some more Info for you tomorrow! I believe those two wires were black. I know they were not the yellow or red ones. It could be the two leading to some safety switch on the brake or something? Not sure if that is a safety switch. Iím also not sure why I didnít have the same voltage on those wires. I know that whole gearbox switch is good, I had checked continuity on all of them before hand. Iíll get another terminals on that wire tomorrow, hook them up correctly, double check what I did today and see what else I can check. I really do appreciate all the time and info you have gave me. <3
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Old March 1st, 2021, 10:38 AM   #40
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Igniter's on left side of bike under side-panel:


Note that pre-'95 ones have different pin-outs than 95+ versions. So check part# to verify you have one that matches harness you've got on bike.

Safety-switches connects or disconnects ground side of starter-relay. So even if you have power to starter-relay, safety-switches won't allow starter to run. If you can run starter to crank engine with start-button, all your safety switches are operational. They won't affect power-side circuits or ignition in any way.
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