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Old April 11th, 2020, 01:54 PM   #1
Mr.Catfish
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Ninja 250r No power with ignition ON

Hey everybody, My name is Catfish. This is my first post to the forums. I've got a 2009 Ninja 250r. A little about the bike is that it has a KOSO rx2 gauge cluster and I converted the headlights to a single bulb dual filament cafe racer style headlamp.
The bike ran fine before the winter and I go to start it up a month ago and it cranked but she had no spark. Long story short, my roommate and I hook up a charger to the battery on 10 amps to try and get spark and the positive charging cable popped off of the positive terminal and touched the frame of the bike It then arched and sparked between the positive terminal and the frame. After that NO power to the cluster. The KOSO cluster seems to be fine because everytime I hook it up to the battery it lights up and does a little sweep of the tach and colors (like it should), but then shuts off waiting for the ignition switch signal to power it back up. Plus I hooked up the old cluster and still nothing. All fuses are good including the 30amp fuse! Prodding around with a volt meter I get a little above 11volts from the battery to the starter solenoid but no power to the 30 amp fuse or anything after that. I replace the starter solenoid with a new one, still nothing. I'm pretty sure I didn't short my battery because it reads almost 12 volts and I switched it with the battery in my roommates R6 and still nothing. I think the key was in the on position when all of the sparking happened so do you think I shorted something in my ignition switch? I'm pretty lost here. Thanks in advance everyone
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Old April 11th, 2020, 07:53 PM   #2
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Are you 100% sure the fuses are fine? Swapping the main 30 amp out for a known good one is going to be the cheapest fix here - hopefully that's all that blew.
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Old April 12th, 2020, 03:55 PM   #3
Mr.Catfish
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All the fuses have 0 resistance when read with a volt meter and they all look good, including the 30amp. I think I might have blown something in my ignition switch? maybe the resistor? I'm kinda a noob with a volt meter but I can do basic things like check for voltage and resistance in a circuit. The key was in the on position when all the sparking happened. Does anyone know how to test the ignition switch? I'd like to test it before dropping 140$ on a new one
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Old April 12th, 2020, 04:09 PM   #4
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I also forgot to mention I was able to find a complete harness, cdi, stator cover/stator with the pickup coil, and ignition coils for $120 locally! I picked it up and I swapped all the diodes, relays, and cdi and still nothing, no horn, no signals, no dash lights.
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Old April 12th, 2020, 06:38 PM   #5
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Hi Mr. Catfish and welcome to Ninjette!

Stop replacing perfectly good parts with brand-new perfectly good parts because nothing will change. You need to test and measure parts to determine if they are indeed bad before replacing. Unless you bought that harness new from Kawasaki dealer, it too is as suspect as harness on your bike and should be thoroughly tested before using. Now you've got two harnesses that needs to be measured and tested instead of one.

One thing you need is new battery. Heathy battery properly charged is very first step. Even if all your wiring is operational, bad or poorly charged battery will prevent bike from running. Anything less than 12.6v is drained and dead. You need to get proper 1amp motorcycle smart-charger and put it on battery for 24hrs. Report back with battery voltage at that time. Once you have good battery with proper charge, then troubleshooting effort may be worthwhile.
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Old April 12th, 2020, 06:54 PM   #6
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Quote:
the positive charging cable popped off of the positive terminal and touched the frame of the bike It then arched and sparked between the positive terminal and the frame.
This doesn't make any sense. Please take photo of battery and cables. Then draw in where you saw sparks. Post photo here for review.

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Old April 14th, 2020, 09:34 AM   #7
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Put a good battery with 12.6 volts on, still dead as a door nail
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Old April 14th, 2020, 09:39 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
This doesn't make any sense. Please take photo of battery and cables. Then draw in where you saw sparks. Post photo here for review.
The battery was in the bike all hooked up. We just put a jump box on it to simulate a good battery so we could prod around with a volt meter to help diagnose the no spark issue than the positive jumper cable clamp popped off of the positive battery terminal and hit the metal frame that is right next to it which caused a bunch of sparking. After that she was completely dead. My first thought was I blew the main fuse but it's fine.
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Old April 14th, 2020, 02:06 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Catfish View Post
The battery was in the bike all hooked up. We just put a jump box on it to simulate a good battery so we could prod around with a volt meter to help diagnose the no spark issue than the positive jumper cable clamp popped off of the positive battery terminal and hit the metal frame that is right next to it which caused a bunch of sparking. After that she was completely dead. My first thought was I blew the main fuse but it's fine.
So it sparked between positive jumper cable and frame? That makes a lot more sense as your original post said it sparked between positive terminal and frame. Which I assumed was positive battery terminal which didn't make sense.
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Old April 14th, 2020, 03:56 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
So it sparked between positive jumper cable and frame? That makes a lot more sense as your original post said it sparked between positive terminal and frame. Which I assumed was positive battery terminal which didn't make sense.
Yup, pretty much. The key was in the ignition and in the on position when all the sparking happened, so I'm thinking it might have blown to 100 ohm resistor inside the ignition switch itself. But that's just my suspicion
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Old April 15th, 2020, 10:57 AM   #11
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Good to think of electricity flow like water. Goes from point-A to point-C along path of least resistance. Meaning if you see +12v at A and then at C, it certainly would've flowed through point-B and all wiring in between as well. So... let's test circuit for flow from beginning to end. Clamp meter's negative probe to battery's negative terminal and use positive probe to test voltage at following points.

1. battery positive terminal = ? volts
2. power out of starter-solenoid white wire =
3. power going into ignition-switch white wire =
4. key ON, power going out of ignition-switch blue wire =
5. key ON, power going out of ignition-switch red wire =
6. key ON, power going out of ignition-switch white/back wire =
7. key ON, power going out of ignition-switch brown wire =
8. key ON, power going out of ignition-switch orange/green=
9. key ON, run-switch ON, power at each ignition-coil red wire =
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Old April 28th, 2020, 05:00 PM   #12
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Hey, sorry it's been a while, I've been busy with other things but I finally got to prodding around with the multi-meter. I also popped off the ignition switch back cover and the 100 ohm resistor is fine and the starter switch is functional.
Checked the resistance of ground wire coming off the battery. It's at 0 so it's good.
I'm getting 12.6 volts from the battery and 12.6 v from the main positive wire that runs from the battery to the starter solenoid switch. After that the power stops. It doesn't matter if the ignition switch is on or off. I've prodded all the wires coming out of the starter solenoid switch and the 30amp main fuse and nothing. That's why I replaced the switch with a new one because I couldn't understand why all the power is stopping at that point. There isn't even power going to the fan fuse. Nothing, she's completely dead
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Old April 28th, 2020, 06:17 PM   #13
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Uhh... do you have 4-position plug connected to starter-solenoid? Also find BIG cable from battery positive terminal and trace it to starter-solenoid.

- Does it connect to starter-solenoid?
- What is voltage at that terminal where battery cable connects to soleniod?

Go systematically...

1. battery positive terminal = 12.6 volts
2. power out of starter-solenoid white wire = ???

What we need to do now, is determine WHY power doesn't make it out of solenoid. Trick question here, because power actually doesn't go through solenoid, but actually just bypasses it through 30-amp fuse. So here's what flow-path looks like. You'll want to verify power at each junction:

Batt+ --> starter-solenoid --> 30-amp fuse --> WHT-wire AT starter-solenoid --> WHT @ ignition switch --> all outputs of ignition-switch (key ON) --> [skip couple sections] --> RED wire at ignition coils.

You need power at all junctions, you're stuck at #2 on list above. Test that and then rest of system.

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; April 30th, 2020 at 02:19 PM.
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Old April 28th, 2020, 07:26 PM   #14
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Yes, the four prong connector is plugged in to the solenoid. I went through and tested all the wires mentioned in order. With having the key on and everything. Everything is 0 voltage
30 Amp fuse has 0 resistance when tested and visually is not blown.
That is why I bought the $12 solenoid because I'm kind of going crazy over the fact I'm getting power to it, but no power coming out anywhere not even to the fuse when I probe it from the back of the solenoid. I appreciate the feedback, I really hope I can get her running soon.
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Old April 28th, 2020, 11:51 PM   #15
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Uhhh... You have starter-solenoid connected backwards. Reverse connections of two big cable lugs. Put battery cable on other terminal and connect starter cable to other side.

Getting solenoid wires reversed is "that other thing" that happened completely independently from cable-shorting incident with jumper box. That event has absolutely nothing to do with your problems.
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Old April 29th, 2020, 12:20 PM   #16
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The solenoid is on correctly and it always has been on correctly . This is no mere coincidence that happened at the exact same time as the sparking that caused my no power issue.
1.Bike had power, cluster was lit up, key was in the on position
2. Positive jumper cable popped off of the positive battery terminal and hit the frame (sparked) AND seemed to swing back and hit the positive battery terminal again causing more sparks.(It didn't just hit the frame)
3. Immediately after the sparking the bike was completely dead, and that's where I'm at.
I'm kind of losing it over how simple it should be, yet it's proving to be some mysterious electric issue. I appreciate the feedback as always
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Old April 29th, 2020, 01:46 PM   #17
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I'm going to re test the grounds of the bike. It's the only thing I can think of.
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Old April 29th, 2020, 06:41 PM   #18
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There seems to be lack of understanding on how circuits work, so I'll start with some basics. DC power starts at power-source, goes through load and comes back at ground of source.


Every complete circuit has two segments, power and ground. Now if you've got break in power segment, which you yourself have identified as problem, there's absolutely nothing you can do on ground circuit to fix it.



Until you identify location of break in power circuit, there is no way this bulb is gonna light. You can spend next 300-hrs checking ground circuits and even if there's problems, fixing them will not fix broken power circuit.

I'll draw up diagram of power circuit and identify test points since text isn't describing it properly.

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Old April 29th, 2020, 07:48 PM   #19
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Ok, here's diagram of how power gets from battery through starter-solenoid. Also test-points of interest. Notice that battery-power just bypasses solenoid through 30-amp fuse on its way to ignition-switch. Even defective solenoid will send power to ignition-switch.



TEST-POINT 1 - battery positive terminal: With bike OFF, battery provides all power for starting. Simple enough to measure directly at battery-terminal as control.



TEST-POINT B - solenoid inlet terminal: Other end of battery-cable. Would be best to trace battery-cable from positive-terminal and find other end. Measure metal tab at end of cable, it should be same voltage as other end of cable at battery. Also measure at terminal-B of starter-solenoid where you have battery-cable connected. Should be exact same voltage as at battery.



TEST-POINT - fuse inlet: this just verifies fuse is connected to inlet terminal-B of solenoid.


TEST-POINT - fuse outlet: this actually tests that fuse is good and conducts electricity. Should be same as battery.



TEST-POINT 2 - solenoid output: Measure upper-right terminal of 4-pin socket. This takes outlet from fuse and sends it to ignition-switch. Should be exactly same as battery.


Note that there's no switches or relays or anything involved in circuit up to this point. Everything is tough, solid metal or close-to-solid metal. Most sensitive part is 30-amp fuse and is actually difficult to blow. Battery-power automatically flows through positive-cable to starter-solenoid terminal-B, through 30-amp fuse, out white-wire to ignition-switch passively.

TEST-POINT M - solenoid outlet terminal: goes to starter. There should be NO, ZERO, ZILCH, NADA power at terminal-M on starter-solenoid with bike off. Power from terminal-B only comes out to terminal-M when starter-button is pushed and all circuits connected properly.


So, IF you are NOT getting power to terminal-B of starter-solenoid, THEN positive battery-cable is bad. OR it's connected to terminal-M instead. Measure voltage at terminal-M. Simplest test really is just to trace battery-cable from positive-terminal and measure other end and see which solenoid terminal it's connected to.


Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; April 30th, 2020 at 03:03 PM.
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Old April 30th, 2020, 11:43 AM   #20
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Here's what happens if you have battery-cable connect to terminal-M of starter-solenoid:



Since output terminal-M of solenoid is not connected to anything internally or externally, power flows from battery through positive battery-cable and just stops at starter-solenoid. Power doesn't reach 30-amp fuse, doesn't go beyond fuse to white-wire and doesn't go to ignition-switch, full-stop.

Which you yourself confirmed:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Catfish View Post
Prodding around with a volt meter I get a little above 11volts from the battery to the starter solenoid but no power to the 30 amp fuse or anything after that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Catfish View Post
I'm getting 12.6 volts from the battery and 12.6 v from the main positive wire that runs from the battery to the starter solenoid switch. After that the power stops.

The ONLY way this can happen:

- power out of battery
- power out of battery-cable far-end
- power at "some" terminal of starter-solenoid
- no power to or out of 30-amp fuse
- no power out to white-wire

Is that battery-cable is attached to outlet terminal-M instead of inlet terminal-B. Compare electrical flow differences in two diagrams. Simple.

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; April 30th, 2020 at 04:37 PM.
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Old April 30th, 2020, 03:26 PM   #21
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
OK, if you want quick and easy without any background, humour me with simplest of tests, please. Measure both terminals of starter solenoid:

terminal-B volts = ???
terminal-M volts = ???

Thank you.
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Old April 30th, 2020, 06:21 PM   #22
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Good news! I got the bike Running!
I had power to the starter solenoid from the battery but nowhere else, not to the fuse or anything. So I switched back to the oem starter solenoid and I had power.
The new one said it fit the 250r and looked identical to the original but I guess they had the posts on a reverse order to the oem one.
I also I had the donor cdi, diodes, and relays all in, I think one of those could be faulty on my original bike because I was getting no power to the dash when I had the oem starter solenoid in after the sparking. I'll do some investigating to see the cause. I want to give a big thank you to DannoXYZ.
Thank you for the time and knowledge. I definitely learned a few things from all of this. My testing abilities with a volt meter are much better.
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Old April 30th, 2020, 06:40 PM   #23
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Good job on tracking these bugs down!!!
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Old March 1st, 2021, 04:00 PM   #24
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Due to broken image-links, which reduces usefullness, I'll re-post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Catfish View Post
I'm going to re test the grounds of the bike. It's the only thing I can think of.
There seems to be lack of understanding on how circuits work, so I'll start with some basics. DC power starts at power-source, goes through load and comes back at ground of source.


Every complete circuit has two segments, power and ground. Now if you've got break in power segment, which you yourself have identified as problem, there's absolutely nothing you can do on ground circuit to fix it.



Until you identify location of break in power circuit, there is no way this bulb is gonna light. You can spend next 300-hrs checking ground circuits and even if there's problems, fixing them will not fix broken power circuit.

I'll draw up diagram of power circuit and identify test points since text isn't describing it properly.
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Old March 1st, 2021, 04:05 PM   #25
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repost...
Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Ok, here's diagram of how power gets from battery through starter-solenoid. Also test-points of interest. Notice that battery-power just bypasses solenoid through 30-amp fuse on its way to ignition-switch. Even defective solenoid will send power to ignition-switch.



TEST-POINT 1 - battery positive terminal: With bike OFF, battery provides all power for starting. Simple enough to measure directly at battery-terminal as control.


TEST-POINT B - solenoid inlet terminal: Other end of battery-cable. Would be best to trace battery-cable from positive-terminal and find other end. Measure metal tab at end of cable, it should be same voltage as other end of cable at battery. Also measure at terminal-B of starter-solenoid where you have battery-cable connected. Should be exact same voltage as at battery.



TEST-POINT - fuse inlet: this just verifies fuse is connected to inlet terminal-B of solenoid.


TEST-POINT - fuse outlet: this actually tests that fuse is good and conducts electricity. Should be same as battery.


TEST-POINT 2 - solenoid output: Measure upper-right terminal of 4-pin socket. This takes outlet from fuse and sends it to ignition-switch. Should be exactly same as battery.


Note that there's no switches or relays or anything involved in circuit up to this point. Everything is tough, solid metal or close-to-solid metal. Most sensitive part is 30-amp fuse and is actually difficult to blow. Battery-power automatically flows through positive-cable to starter-solenoid terminal-B, through 30-amp fuse, out white-wire to ignition-switch passively.

TEST-POINT M - solenoid outlet terminal: goes to starter. There should be NO, ZERO, ZILCH, NADA power at terminal-M on starter-solenoid with bike off. Power from terminal-B only comes out to terminal-M when starter-button is pushed and all circuits connected properly.


So, IF you are NOT getting power to terminal-B of starter-solenoid, THEN positive battery-cable is bad. OR it's connected to terminal-M instead. Measure voltage at terminal-M. Simplest test really is just to trace battery-cable from positive-terminal and measure other end and see which solenoid terminal it's connected to.

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Old March 1st, 2021, 04:08 PM   #26
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Here's what happens if you have battery-cable connected to terminal-M of starter-solenoid:



Since output terminal-M of solenoid is not connected to anything internally or externally, power flows from battery through positive battery-cable and just stops at starter-solenoid. Power doesn't reach 30-amp fuse, doesn't go beyond fuse to white-wire and doesn't go to ignition-switch, full-stop.

Which you yourself confirmed:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Catfish
Prodding around with a volt meter I get a little above 11volts from the battery to the starter solenoid but no power to the 30 amp fuse or anything after that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Catfish
I'm getting 12.6 volts from the battery and 12.6 v from the main positive wire that runs from the battery to the starter solenoid switch. After that the power stops.

The ONLY way this can happen:

- power out of battery
- power out of battery-cable far-end
- power at "some" terminal of starter-solenoid
- no power to or out of 30-amp fuse
- no power out to white-wire

Is that battery-cable is attached to outlet terminal-M instead of inlet terminal-B. Compare electrical flow differences in two diagrams. Simple.
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How does power get to the ignition switch Akanoodle 1986 - 2007 Ninja 250R Tech Talk 3 July 23rd, 2013 04:33 PM


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