Speeding ticket

[Brother Michigan]

Originally Posted by flitecontrol

Ever think about accepting responsibility for your actions and the consequences that entails rather than acting like a weasel?

It's not HIS fault he was doing almost 30 mph over the speed limit!

/s

[akima]

[DEFY]

Originally Posted by akima

"I am Free" lol

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by Hero Danny

Speeding tickets are such BS. Just a cash crop for the government. I say hire a lawyer and fight it. Points on your license are expensive.

It's a victimless crime. Just like drunk driving tickets.

(Did you hear that? It sounded like a can opening. I smell worms...)

Originally Posted by akima

Just because you exceed the posted speed limit doesn't mean you have done something morally wrong.

Just because you feel you've done nothing morally wrong doesn't mean you haven't broken the law. I highly encourage everyone to fight laws they feel are immoral, but "I don't feel that what I did is really bad" isn't usually a good legal defense.

Based on the earlier posts, it sounded like the OP knew he was speeding and was just trying to deal with it in the least painful way possible. Some of the other posts took on a tone of trying to get out of the ticket simply because nobody likes to be inconvenienced themselves.

I say it's a personal decision if you want to try to get out of a just ticket. If you're fighting it simply because you don't want to pay a fine or whatever, remember that you're abusing the system, so don't complain when others do the same. If you truly believe that you're not guilty of whatever crime you're accused of, that's a different situation.

Originally Posted by akima

Also... weasels are cute. Are you saying that he's cute or acts cute? Pretty weird to throw a compliment in with that negative condemnation you gave him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel

In North America ... weasel can be a disparaging term, noun or verb, for someone regarded as sneaky, conniving or untrustworthy. Similarly, weasel words is a critical term for words or phrasing that are vague, misleading or equivocal.

Learn English, you dumb Brit! =)

[Alex]

Originally Posted by InvisiBill

If you're fighting it simply because you don't want to pay a fine or whatever, remember that you're abusing the system, so don't complain when others do the same. If you truly believe that you're not guilty of whatever crime you're accused of, that's a different situation.

I'm not sure I agree. It's not the motorist's job to make the ticket collection easier. If so, we should all wire up our phones to immediately/automatically paypal the court every time it senses us going over 75 mph (or 85 mph in Texas, I guess). Like any other crime or infraction, it's the court's responsibility to prove guilt before any penalties are assessed. That assessment should never be done only by the officer.

Dispute every ticket, pay as little as possible, use whatever necessary to keep your insurance rates reasonable. Looking at it as if everything is supposed to be fair and just from all sides, remember that the insurance companies are often the largest donors in funds and material for speed detection. More tickets = greater profits; not reduced losses.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by InvisiBill

I highly encourage everyone to fight laws they feel are immoral, but "I don't feel that what I did is really bad" isn't usually a good legal defense.

Laws are a funny thing sometimes... They lump everyone and everything into the respective buckets of that applicable law. Many laws were created due to a kneejerk reaction to an event to get that warm and fuzzy feeling vs. common sense and fact. And what is immoral to you, may not be immoral to me.

Nudity is considered against the law in most of the US? Why?
So... I can fly a toy single rotor heli with a cam on it all day long and nobody will care. Make that toy a quad copter and it becomes a "drone" and should be regulated to the point you can't film your backyard 4th of July fireworks. Why?
I can't own a pit bull dog because someone lacked the responsibility to control theirs. All tagless pit bulls caught in this county are killed mostly within 7 days. Why?
Why do you need a marriage licence? I thought there was a separation of church and state.

It don't matter why really, ultimately each law pisses off someone enough that they make a law to prevent it or hold someone responsible for something.

The other part of laws that are funny, is.... they can get you off the hook for something you knowingly did. Perfection is a bitch that way... it's a 2 way street.

EDIT: I would bet 99% of us broke a law today. Some laws we knew about, some we didn't even care about, the others we didn't even know existed. :\

[Hero Danny]

Originally Posted by Alex

I'm not sure I agree. It's not the motorist's job to make the ticket collection easier. If so, we should all wire up our phones to immediately/automatically paypal the court every time it senses us going over 75 mph (or 85 mph in Texas, I guess). Like any other crime or infraction, it's the court's responsibility to prove guilt before any penalties are assessed. That assessment should never be done only by the officer.

Dispute every ticket, pay as little as possible, use whatever necessary to keep your insurance rates reasonable. Looking at it as if everything is supposed to be fair and just from all sides, remember that the insurance companies are often the largest donors in funds and material for speed detection. More tickets = greater profits; not reduced losses.

This ^

[Ninjinsky]

Originally Posted by InvisiBill

Learn English, you dumb Brit! =)

Perhaps you should stop using our language and devise your own, you've had 200 years of liberty to do that in. You could start on the wrong side of the page, just like you do with driving

[akima]

Personally, I avoid breaking laws. Not because I think that's the right thing to do, but because there are people with truncheons, cages and handcuffs that like to go after you and your possessions if they catch you breaking laws.

I'm aware of only a tiny fraction of the laws and policies that "apply to me". Of that tiny fraction of laws I'm aware of, I cannot recall a single line of the legal definitions of those laws. If I could recall the exact wording of a law I'd then be faced with the problem of correctly interpreting the wording. Legalese is not the same as English. Two different languages.

I have an internal self-policing system that can be roughly summarized with:
1. Live and let live.
2. Do not do onto others that which you would not want done to yourself.
3. Do not steal.
4. Do not initiate force against another (AKA the non-aggression principle).

The first 2 things are kind of fuzzy, have exceptions and are problematic in some scenarios: they mostly work though.

The latter 2 things, I think are far more solid. It's very, very hard for me to conceive of a scenario where I think it would be ok for me to take something from another that is their private property or initiate force against another. Self defence is ok. Being the aggressor: not ok.

[akima]

@InvisiBill - I know what he meant by "weasel". I was being facetious.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by Alex

I'm not sure I agree. It's not the motorist's job to make the ticket collection easier. If so, we should all wire up our phones to immediately/automatically paypal the court every time it senses us going over 75 mph (or 85 mph in Texas, I guess). Like any other crime or infraction, it's the court's responsibility to prove guilt before any penalties are assessed. That assessment should never be done only by the officer.

Dispute every ticket, pay as little as possible, use whatever necessary to keep your insurance rates reasonable. Looking at it as if everything is supposed to be fair and just from all sides, remember that the insurance companies are often the largest donors in funds and material for speed detection. More tickets = greater profits; not reduced losses.

I'm not saying you should just go along with whatever a cop tells you. I'm saying that if you agree with the accusation and knowingly broke the law, and have come to the conclusion that the ticket is fair and just, then weaseling out of the ticket is going against the spirit of the law. If you really feel something about the law or the ticket is wrong, then I think you should absolutely fight it.

But if you agree with their assessment of the situation, and the sole reason for fighting it is that you'd rather keep your $100 instead of paying a fine, then I feel you're abusing the system. There are many more and worse cases of abuse of our legal system, but I think it's completely hypocritical to weasel your way out of punishment for breaking the law, while at the same time complaining about others weaseling their way out of legal punishments. Two wrongs don't make a right (but personally doing what's right might be more expensive and/or inconvenient, without having much effect on the system as a whole).

It will obviously depend on your local resources, but most bikes can easily get away from any regular cop car. You can probably avoid a lot of tickets simply by running from the cops. If you're doing anything you can to avoid tickets, make sure to keep that in your list of options.

These are just my feelings and line of thinking on the matter. What you do is your own choice. Fight the good fight, for whatever your definition of "good" is.


I don't worry about it too much, because I guess I'm just better at it than most people. I've driven hundreds of thousands of miles (I was averaging close to 40k a year for a while), probably 98% of that while speeding, and have only gotten one ticket. I think I tend to be a little slower on the bike due to the optimistic speedo, but I'm also aware of it so I tend to compensate and round my speed up to the next "5" mark. *shrug*

[akima]

Originally Posted by InvisiBill

If you really feel something about the law or the ticket is wrong, then I think you should absolutely fight it.

I really don't think that's good advice.

If he thinks the law and/or the ticket is wrong/unjust then fighting it should remain an option; not something that he should just go ahead and do.

If I was going to consider fighting something in court (I hope I never get in that situation), I'd want to assess the time and potential stress and resulting health impacts that the fight would take out of me. I'd want to weigh that against the likelihood of getting a desirable outcome. I'd want to then consider whether the desirable outcome would be worth the fight. It might well turn out to be cheaper (in terms of time spent, money invested in legal advise and stress) to just pay the fine.

Maybe you can share some advice on how you avoid getting tickets despite speeding? Now that I want to hear. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by akima

@InvisiBill - I know what he meant by "weasel". I was being facetious.

I figured as much, but I try to seize every opportunity to make fun of English English.

Originally Posted by Ninjinsky

Perhaps you should stop using our language and devise your own, you've had 200 years of liberty to do that in. You could start on the wrong side of the page, just like you do with driving :D

Maybe you should change the name of your country and stop trying to freeload off our awesome language's name. MURICA!

Originally Posted by akima

Personally, I avoid breaking laws. Not because I think that's the right thing to do, but because there are people with truncheons, cages and handcuffs that like to go after you and your possessions if they catch you breaking laws.

I'm aware of only a tiny fraction of the laws and policies that "apply to me". Of that tiny fraction of laws I'm aware of, I cannot recall a single line of the legal definitions of those laws. If I could recall the exact wording of a law I'd then be faced with the problem of correctly interpreting the wording. Legalese is not the same as English. Two different languages.

I have an internal self-policing system that can be roughly summarized with:
1. Live and let live.
2. Do not do onto others that which you would not want done to yourself.
3. Do not steal.
4. Do not initiate force against another (AKA the non-aggression principle).

The first 2 things are kind of fuzzy, have exceptions and are problematic in some scenarios: they mostly work though.

The latter 2 things, I think are far more solid. It's very, very hard for me to conceive of a scenario where I think it would be ok for me to take something from another that is their private property or initiate force against another. Self defence is ok. Being the aggressor: not ok.

I'm pretty similar to this. I generally follow the laws not because they're laws, but because they align with what I consider to be the right thing to do. Some laws I follow because it's simply easier to go along with them than dealing with the consequences. Laws that I feel are stupid I tend to just ignore (though that would probably change if there were more repercussions I had to deal with).

INTJs apply (often ruthlessly) the criterion "Does it work?" to everything from their own research efforts to the prevailing social norms. This in turn produces an unusual independence of mind, freeing the INTJ from the constraints of authority, convention, or sentiment for its own sake.

I tend to dislike/ignore rules that have no logical purpose, as they seem counterproductive and a waste of finite resources. "Because I said so" and "Because that's how we've always done it" are not valid justifications for anything in my mind.

[akima]

I haven't done that personality test, but my guess is I'd come out as INTJ as well; or at least I-something-T-something.

Originally Posted by InvisiBill

I figured as much, but I try to seize every opportunity to make fun of English English.

fair enough. There's endless ways to make fun of us Brits. I think most of us have a few loose screws from being cooped up on this crazy little island.

It's 2015 and for some reason there are still queens, princes and princesses over here. What the hell!

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by akima

I really don't think that's good advice.

If he thinks the law and/or the ticket is wrong/unjust then fighting it should remain an option; not something that he should just go ahead and do.

If I was going to consider fighting something in court (I hope I never get in that situation), I'd want to assess the time and potential stress and resulting health impacts that the fight would take out of me. I'd want to weigh that against the likelihood of getting a desirable outcome. I'd want to then consider whether the desirable outcome would be worth the fight. It might well turn out to be cheaper (in terms of time spent, money invested in legal advise and stress) to just pay the fine.

Well, obviously there are other factors to take into account. But it all comes back to "fighting the good fight" and "doing the right thing" in my eyes. If everyone just takes the easy way out and doesn't fight for what's right, we'll eventually lose what's right. I realize that not everyone has millions of dollars and years of free time to fight every single problem with the legal system. This comment was aimed at speeding tickets, and more specifically at the difference between knowingly exceeding posted speed limits compared to a situation where the right/wrong-ness is in question (getting ticketed for a speed much higher than you were actually traveling, a speed trap with a sudden speed limit drop with no warning or logical reason, etc.).

Originally Posted by akima

Maybe you can share some advice on how you avoid getting tickets despite speeding? Now that I want to hear. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

I'm not someone who does 100mph everywhere. The de facto standard around here is 5mph over the posted limit. Everyone always does it, so I don't even really think of it as speeding. So yeah, I "speed" pretty much every time I leave the house. Depending on location and traffic, sometimes I'll do 10-15 over. Out on the back roads when nobody's around, I'll occasionally do a burst up to top speed, for whatever reason.

My biggest tip is just don't stand out. Obviously that's a lot harder to do if you're someone who has to be going 20mph faster than everyone else. I generally just go with the flow of the faster end of traffic. If you see a cop in the median, don't freak out. I've seen people going the speed limit slam on their brakes when they see a cop. If I'm going fast enough that I'm worried about getting a ticket, I'm smooth about adjusting my speed and I try to blend in with other traffic. Chances are by the time you see the cop, he's already got you clocked, so suddenly slowing down won't help anyway. If you're subtle about it and act like you just got going a bit fast to get around someone or something, I think they tend to ignore you.

I'm also a car guy, so I can quickly spot the models that police use. It's getting harder with the variety of vehicles they use now (back in the day, you just had to watch out for Crown Vics and Caprices) and the low-profile LED light bars. I tend to travel the same routes a lot, so I learn where cops sit too.

Again, my advice is mostly for "speeding" rather than SPEEDING!

[DEFY]

Still easy to spot a cop, they are always in the same places around here. Drive ford taurus, fusion or explorer. Mostly see vics if it is someone who bought one from an auction, not actual cops.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by InvisiBill

I'm not saying you should just go along with whatever a cop tells you. I'm saying that if you agree with the accusation and knowingly broke the law, and have come to the conclusion that the ticket is fair and just, then weaseling out of the ticket is going against the spirit of the law.

Equating using your legal rights to whatever extent available, to weaseling, is weak. Pleading guilty and sending in cash rather than making the state prove the case seems to be weaseling out of your duty as a citizen. Even if you wanted to donate that $300+ to the government anyway, there are probably better places one would choose to allocate it for, rather than just the general fund.

As you live in an area where you can apparently freely speed (except you put quotes around "speed", so it apparently isn't really speeding) everywhere and never get tickets, this seems like a moot point as you're never in the situation where you have to make such a decision. You might have a different opinion if you lived in an area where motorists get tickets quite often for 5-10 over the posted limit.

None of this is justification for riding like an idiot and then blaming "the man" when something bad happens. Of course that line that crosses into idiocy is very open to interpretation. The advice to not stand out is completely sound. Whether traveling at the speed limit or a bit above, anything you do to grab the attention of somebody whose primary function at that particular moment is clocking speeds and writing tickets, is something you probably shouldn't be doing.

[Ninjinsky]

Worth remembering that the 55 was bought in because in 1973 the Russian armed Arabs lost the Yom Kippur war and decided to punish America for it's support of the Jewish people by jacking the price of crude through the roof.
The limit was a panic reaction by a government that incorrectly assumed lowering traffic speeds would help the economy survive the hit.
Knee jerkers will say "You were driving dangerously by exceeding the limit"
but the reality is that it wasn't about safety at all.

[csmith12]

^^^ lol

Lives saved - 13%
Gas saved - 1%
Revenue generated - Billions

What was the problem again? Don't matter, keep the law.

[Ninjinsky]

Originally Posted by csmith12

^^^ lol

Lives saved - 13%
Gas saved - 1%
Revenue generated - Billions

What was the problem again? Don't matter, keep the law.

Don't know where you got that 13% increase
Most sources say they fell when it was repealed and that was in the years immediately following the repeal (which negates the classic retort "cars are safer these days" )
http://www.cato.org/publications/pol...ph-speed-limit
The other two points are about right.
Here in the UK (national limit 70mph ) they have a blanket 56 for trucks. It causes chaos on the motorway system, the tachograph regulated trucks sometimes taking miles to overtake each other (had eight hours of motorway driving yesterday so it is fresh in my mind)
One thing just crossed my mind, you don't see photos of politicians driving.

[csmith12]

I just made up the numbers using a bit of common sense from my state and local area. My post was actually a failed joke, but in support of your post. ie "Just follow the money"

[Ninjinsky]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I just made up the numbers using a bit of common sense from my state and local area. My post was actually a failed joke, but in support of your post. ie "Just follow the money"

My apologies for being Mr Stupido,
I should have worked that out Lol

[csmith12]

np, no apologies needed

Although, that truck thing must totally suck!!!

[cadd]

Wow, so much serious grown up talk here!!.....by a bunch of wild reckless bikers, who are probably in some sort of gang.

Originally Posted by csmith12

I can't own a pit bull dog because someone lacked the responsibility to control theirs. All tagless pit bulls caught in this county are killed mostly within 7 days. Why?

I'll change the mood:

Link to original page on YouTube.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by Alex

Equating using your legal rights to whatever extent available, to weaseling, is weak. Pleading guilty and sending in cash rather than making the state prove the case seems to be weaseling out of your duty as a citizen. Even if you wanted to donate that $300+ to the government anyway, there are probably better places one would choose to allocate it for, rather than just the general fund.

As you live in an area where you can apparently freely speed (except you put quotes around "speed", so it apparently isn't really speeding) everywhere and never get tickets, this seems like a moot point as you're never in the situation where you have to make such a decision. You might have a different opinion if you lived in an area where motorists get tickets quite often for 5-10 over the posted limit.

Generally speaking, I don't think people do enough to use their legal rights. I'm not trying to say that you shouldn't use your available options. But if you specifically choose to break the law, knowing the risks involved, and get caught breaking the law, and completely agree with their assessment of the situation, then I don't think pleading guilty is failing to do your civic duty. I see it as owning up to what you did.

You're right, I do live in an area where I can speed a little bit and get away with it. I would say +10mph is still pushing it. Therefore, I don't usually go +10. If I lived somewhere where +5 was likely to get me a ticket a majority of the time, I'd probably not drive +5 as much as I do now.

For what it's worth, I was going 10-15 over the 70mph speed limit when I got my ticket. Compared to the OP, the speed limit was 27% higher, and I was still only going the same speed he was (19% over the limit rather than 51%). I was stuck behind some slowpokes on the interstate, then jumped in behind a Jeep to get around them. As I got around them, I noticed I was going faster than I was comfortable with. I slowed down and started to change lanes to stop following the Jeep. As I turned back from my head check, I was staring at a cop in the median. He pulled me over and completely ignored the Jeep, probably because I was in the Syclone, plus slowing down and changing lanes (due to my own decision that I was going too fast) probably made me look like I was trying to avoid him catching me.

Originally Posted by Alex

None of this is justification for riding like an idiot and then blaming "the man" when something bad happens. Of course that line that crosses into idiocy is very open to interpretation.

This is more what I'm getting at. It sounded like the OP made his decision to go faster than he should have, got caught doing it, and accepted their assessment of the situation. He himself asked how he could weasel his way out of the ticket. He wasn't going 5 over. He wasn't on a road with a gratuitously low limit. To me, this seemed like knowingly doing something bad, then trying to get out of being held responsible for his deliberate actions. To me, that's a dick move. I equate weaseling your way out of a deserved ticket to blaming the man for your own actions.

If there were any question about the legitimacy of the situation (the law itself, the clocking of the speed, etc.), I'd be all for fighting it. But if you're doing it solely to get out of facing the consequences of your own deliberate actions, I just don't think that's right. Regardless of how small a portion it is, you're still part of the problem.

[InvisiBill]

Duh, pits are vicious killers! Just like my doberman...

Link to original page on YouTube.


My parents' German Shepherd mix is pretty scary too.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by MrAtom

So I went a little too fast. Not sure how fast, but I was written with 83 in a 55 and it doesn't say I can pay by mail. I need to go to court for it. How can I weasel my way out?

Sounds like you got hit with a criminal charge.

[Rifleman]

Originally Posted by MrAtom

If I were a responsible person I wouldn't even be riding a motorcycle in the first place.

best response EVER!!!

[Alex]

Originally Posted by fishdip

Sounds like you got hit with a criminal charge.

Possible, but highly unlikely. Sometimes it's unclear on the initial ticket how to deal with it by mail; it just lists a suggested court date. The courtesy notice that follows up makes it much clearer how to dispose of the ticket, including by mail. The suggested court date that shows up on that initial ticket is BS anyway, as if it gets to that point you have to call and schedule the real one.

[akima]

Originally Posted by Alex

The suggested court date that shows up on that initial ticket is BS anyway, as if it gets to that point you have to call and schedule the real one.

So it's a fear tactic? The BBC TV Licensing people do that over here. They send scary letters and say things like "prepare your documentation for a court appearance" (or something like that). They then don't follow-up with anything.

[Alex]

I don't think so. I believe it is due to laws that require a trial within x number of days of being charged. You're charged with the ticket, they propose a court date immediately, that is within that window. But by the time you confirm that date if you really do plan to show up in person, it is then moved to a time that suits the court, the officer, you, etc. In accepting that new time, you waive your rights to that speedy trial with X days provision. I imagine that one of the ways to get out of a ticket is to work with that timing requirement, and demand a speedy trial within the proscribed time limit, especially if there is some reason that the officer can't make it.

[Ninjinsky]

Originally Posted by akima

So it's a fear tactic? The BBC TV Licensing people do that over here. They send scary letters and say things like "prepare your documentation for a court appearance" (or something like that). They then don't follow-up with anything.

Unfortunately they do turn up eventually and if you don't let them in they come back later with a warrant and a copper.
For many years I didn't have a tv but the problem is that if you have a computer it only takes one inadvertent click on a BBC news "live coverage" article and they have got you for a grand or whatever the fine is.
I gather there are plans a foot to rid the British people of this curse in the next few years.

For our American friends this is modern Britain

Link to original page on YouTube.

["A"]

Depends on where you are located.

In my 25+ years of operating motor vehicles on public roads, I will always show up in court.

Before you show up in court, delay the court date as much as you can, they give you one court date, accept it; then as the date gets closer, change it to a later date. That will delay the point from showing up on your record, by the time you get the court date and if the violation cannot be reduced to a lower points or dismissed, enough time may have already lapsed that you will not get points on your license.

When you do show up in court, dress respectfully, full suit and tie, look clean and respectful, make up some excuse for your speed, demonstrate respect towards the court, show them that you have not been speeding since the last violation... or at least have not been caught speeding, or other moving violations.

If the officer who wrote the ticket does not show up, you have a good chance of getting the ticket dismissed, but with you 85 in a 55.. not likely... but still worth a try to fight it.