Someone stealing my gasoline from my bike! Video included

[cadd]

Ok, I lied.

But I'm having an issue with my bike. Gasoline is disappearing! It's a 2009 and I purchased it with 950 miles on the odometer this winter. The bike is completely stock, except the previous owner installed a slip on exhaust. This is my third fill up and I've been getting between 26 - 28mpg.

The bike is parked in a non heated garage (temps can go down to 35 degrees in the garage) and there are no signs of any fluid leakage under the bike. Additionally, I do not smell any gasoline in the garage either.

Mind you, I haven't ridden a motorcycle since 2004. So maybe rusty/n00b riding techniques may be attributing to the horrible mileage?

After purchasing the bike in January, I gave it an oil change (Rotella T6) along with an el cheapo Fram filter. The oil smelled like gasoline. Huge red flag for me.

I decided to take the tank off and drain it. Found out that the petcock was dripping gasoline in the on position. Took the petcock apart and cleaned it.....dripping stopped.

I also do not know the history of the bike. It's a 5 year old bike with under 1,000 miles....has it been stored properly? No clue.

After draining all the gasoline from the tank, I filled it up and poured 4oz of Seafoam into the tank. That tank gave me 27mpg. About 1/2 tank left, I filled her up again and mileage was 26mpg for my 2nd fill up.

On my 3rd fill up yesterday, I got 28mpg (probably much less seafoam in the tank).

My rides are normally short (under 5 miles) and it has been freezing out. 30 - 40 degrees out. I'm sure the gasoline has "winter additives" added to it as well. But I just think < 30mpg is a sign that something's wrong.

I don't think I ride the bike too hard....or ride incorrectly. You be the judge, here's a video of today's ride. Temperature was 29 degrees on this ride. It's a long boring video, but it'll give you an idea of the roads and how I ride. Let me know if you can see or hear anything wrong with the bike or the way it rides.

http://youtu.be/sN1Pz8w89cM

[rubber side down]

First thing that comes to mind would be float levels too high. Does the oil smell like gas now after changing it and riding it?? Another thing would be how much time do you let it idle to warm up before you ride the 5 miles?? Idling a car or a bike burns more gas than most people think.

[Skullz]

Running in colder temps with the choke partially closed drastically cuts the mileage on our bikes with carbs, another possible thing to look at are sticking brake pads that can also cut into your mileage rather quickly. i would pull the brakes and clean everything off and polish the pins that run through the pads, and make sure nothing is sticking on the pads and caliper causing a possible bind.

[Jammerkiller]

With those type of figures for fuel mileage, I was going to ask if you were riding around with the choke on! (Fuel enrichener) But, I can see in the video that the choke lever is forward. However, try to get a good view of the carbs, on top, and work the choke lever will looking at the carbs to see if the cable is actually moving the enrichener valves open and closed. Maybe your carbs are stuck on "choke" and your choke cable is broke. Otherwise, did the P.O. re-jet the carbs? If the newer 250 is like the pre-gens, then you should have #105 main jets in the carbs. otherwise, if they have bigger jets in them, that would explain the awkward mileage.

I re-jetted a '04 from stock #105 mains to #110 mains, with a Muzzy exhaust and airbox mod. My mileage dropped from 60mpg to 50mpg!

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by cadd

....After draining all the gasoline from the tank, I filled it up and poured 4oz of Seafoam into the tank. That tank gave me 27mpg. About 1/2 tank left, I filled her up again and mileage was 26mpg for my 2nd fill up.

On my 3rd fill up yesterday, I got 28mpg (probably much less seafoam in the tank).

Not unless you have some major mods, your gas mileage should never be that low, even in cold weather.

Usually when riders have mpg that low, they are not calculating their fuel usage right. The first mistake is always using the fuel gauge as an accurate instrument. It is not. In fact it is very rudimentary gauge, meant to give you a general idea of how much fuel is in the tank. Many long time rider of the Ninja 250 know this. Many will say it's really inaccurate and pre-gen owners don't have one.

The tank's capacity is 4.8 gals, however you can not put a full 4.8 gals of full in it the normal way. There is a small amount of air space that you can't fill, also there is a small amount of fuel left in the tank when it is on "E". Unless you completely dry the tank turn it upside down and fill it from the bottom, then you may be able to get the full 4.8 gals of gas in it.

What you have to do is completely fill up the tank as much as possible.
You need to manually fill it. You can't let the handle automatically shut off. Fill it until it just touches or just covers the bottom of the filler neck. If you fill the tank while the bike is upright, you can squeeze in a little bit more.

Set the odo to zero and ride the bike until it almost quits. (you'll know when you start loosing power, slow down to about 45 mph, or use about 1/4 throttle, you'll be able to travel a little further). Fill up and see how much fuel you put in. Take your mileage and divide it by the gals of gas you put in. That will give you a closer average of your mpg. If you try to do it any other way (by estimating use of a 1/2 tank) your calculations may be consistently off.

[Yakaru]

Even a half tank will work to calculate MPG so long as the fill up is a complete fill up and those fill ups use a consistent methodology.

[alex.s]

maybe the carbs are leaking gas into the cylinder when it sits for a long time

[cadd]

Originally Posted by rubber side down

Does the oil smell like gas now after changing it and riding it?? Another thing would be how much time do you let it idle to warm up before you ride the 5 miles??

The oil smells "a tad" like gasoline. Just a tad. I don't know if that's normal or not. But it's definitely not a strong gasoline smell. I let the bike warm up for less than 3 minutes before I ride. I start the bike, put on my boots, helmet and gloves and I'm off

Originally Posted by Skullz

Running in colder temps with the choke partially closed drastically cuts the mileage on our bikes with carbs, another possible thing to look at are sticking brake pads that can also cut into your mileage rather quickly.

My choke is always off. Even in 30 degree weather, I've never had to use the choke to start it. Rear brake pad are not sticking for a fact. When I lubed the chain with the bike on rear stands, it spins freely by hand. I don't have a front stand. However, I am able to push the bike easily. When I examine the front pads, I see a mm or two of clearance when I use a flashlight.

Originally Posted by Jammerkiller

With those type of figures for fuel mileage, I was going to ask if you were riding around with the choke on! (Fuel enrichener) But, I can see in the video that the choke lever is forward. However, try to get a good view of the carbs, on top, and work the choke lever will looking at the carbs to see if the cable is actually moving the enrichener valves open and closed. Maybe your carbs are stuck on "choke" and your choke cable is broke. Otherwise, did the P.O. re-jet the carbs? If the newer 250 is like the pre-gens, then you should have #105 main jets in the carbs. otherwise, if they have bigger jets in them, that would explain the awkward mileage.

I re-jetted a '04 from stock #105 mains to #110 mains, with a Muzzy exhaust and airbox mod. My mileage dropped from 60mpg to 50mpg!

I think my choke cable is ok. When I had the tank off, I was playing around with the choke cable and lubed it. It moves freely.

I don't know if the previous owner re-jetted anything. I didn't take the carbs out. It looked like it was a pain in the butt since the stock airbox was in the way.

Originally Posted by DaBlue1

Not unless you have some major mods, your gas mileage should never be that low, even in cold weather.

Usually when riders have mpg that low, they are not calculating their fuel usage right. The first mistake is always using the fuel gauge as an accurate instrument. It is not.

DaBlue, this is how I calculate MPG.

Fill up bike (I'm always consistent.....bike on side stand. Fill up until gas reaches the metal portion of the filler neck). Reset trip to 0000.

I rode 60 miles (according to my trip meter), when I filled up again (again with bike on side stand....gasoline up to the metal portion of the filler neck), I filled 2.3 gallons.

60 miles required me to use 2.3 gallons. That's roughly 26mpg.

You are also correct about 4.8gal tank capacity. With the tank completely dry (I drained all the gas from it through the petcock), I re-installed the tank and poured in about 12oz of gasoline back into the tank.

I rode down the street to the gas station and the fill up was only 4.1 gals and it was full (again with bike on side stand and I filled it until gasoline touched the metal plate in the filler neck).

Originally Posted by Yakaru

Even a half tank will work to calculate MPG so long as the fill up is a complete fill up and those fill ups use a consistent methodology.

I agree.

Originally Posted by alex.s

maybe the carbs are leaking gas into the cylinder when it sits for a long time

How would I know for sure? Strong smell of gas when I open the oil filler? Perhaps oil level keep rising as the miles rack up?

[Yakaru]

May be worth seeing if it's using gas actively or passively -- that is, if you let the bike sit does the gas level drop or does it only go down when being ridden (the first is a plain leak, the second still leaves a lot of possibilities and is sadly more likely)

[cadd]

Since it's still cold out, I'll try to refrain from riding for a week. Would that be enough time to tell if I'm losing gas? The tank is currently full.

I doubt I'm losing gas in the garage. I don't smell any gasoline and there isn't a drop of fluid on the floor

[flitecontrol]

If the petcock leaks, gas can make its way to the crankcase, resulting in the oil smelling like gas. If severe, it can raise the oil level and result in not only reduced oil lubrication, but increased crankcase pressure. Shutting off the petcock when parked reduces this problem.

[NealWright]

Originally Posted by cadd

My choke is always off. Even in 30 degree weather, I've never had to use the choke to start it.

This is a significant clue here. Your carb should always be jetted to require the choke, even in warm weather. No choke means you're going to be way rich after it warms up.

I'm going to guess toward the side of needle/seat valves. Chances are these are leaking fuel into the motor while it's sitting, and even letting excess fuel into the bowls when it's running.

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by cadd

.... The bike is completely stock, except the previous owner installed a slip on exhaust.

Originally Posted by cadd

....My choke is always off. Even in 30 degree weather, I've never had to use the choke to start it.

....I don't know if the previous owner re-jetted anything. I didn't take the carbs out.

That's rare for a stock bike not needing any choke, especially in the cold.
There is a good chance the PO shimmed or installed a jet kit with the slip on. Even so it does not account for the really low mileage when driving at low rpms.

How do your air filter and spark plugs look? Is your snorkel still installed?
Does the exhaust smell like fuel while warming up or riding?

Even though you are meticulous in your fueling procedure, I'd still run through a whole tank to see if there is any change after checking the basic stuff. Are you pumpimg your own gas in Jersey?

[cadd]

Flitecontrol, the Peacock was leaking. But I fixed that.

Neal/dablue, I'm going to take it to a shop to look at. I want to get it up and running as soon as possible.

Dablue, I pump my own gas. They had me the nozzle after I paid.

Does $100 sound reasonable? They quoted me that to look at the carbs. Possibly clean it.

Any other work I should have done while it's in the shop?

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by cadd

....Does $100 sound reasonable? They quoted me that to look at the carbs. Possibly clean it.

Any other work I should have done while it's in the shop?

Overall, the bike appears to run good, sounds like it may be a little rich on the bottom end, but videos can be deceiving especially when the exhaust is loud and crackling.

I'd try to do as much as possible before they touch it (air filter, plugs, etc). Maybe try some Star Tron instead of SeaFoam. Also make sure they know what they are doing to a Ninja 250.

BTW, what octane gas are you using? How often do you take it out on the interstate an open it up? Are most of your rides that short?

[cadd]

So.....should I take the carbs out and try to work on them myself? If I don't know what I'm looking for, can I post pictures and have you guys assist me?

I've never worked on carbs before. Know next to nothing about syncing them.

I'll check the plugs out as well. Air filter looks pretty new. A bit moist. It did smell a bit like gasoline as well.

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by cadd

So.....should I take the carbs out and try to work on them myself? If I don't know what I'm looking for, can I post pictures and have you guys assist me?

I've never worked on carbs before. Know next to nothing about syncing them.

I'll check the plugs out as well. Air filter looks pretty new. A bit moist. It did smell a bit like gasoline as well.

Have a look at the bottom of the carbs to see if the idle mixture screws have been adjusted. That may give you an idea if the carbs have been messed with or not



You can work on your own carbs. Plenty of DIY info to get it done.
A moist air filter may be too moist. Should be just enough oil on the filter to look dry, but oily to the touch, not saturated. Light gas smells on the filter can happen, but heavy gas smells are no good. Even though the filter my look new, it may be the OEM one that came with the bike. Kawi recommends replacement after 2 years. The OEM is more restrictive than any aftermarket filter and tends to get tighter with age.

[cadd]

Cool. I'll try to take it apart tonight. Unfortunately I work 70hr weeks in the fast food industry. Any free time I have, I want to use it riding!

But hopefully with the help of the forums, I can save some $$$ and resolve the issue.

Next bike will definitely be a FI bike!! Ninja 300.

[cadd]

Oh and to answer your questions, I run 87 once. I tried 93. Same results.

Never rode on interstate.

What is a snorkel? Is it the stock airbox? If so, yes the stock airbox is there.

Exhaust smells like exhaust. I don't know the difference between normal exhaust vs gasoline exhaust smell. I don't smell gasoline from the bike when it's outside the garage idling. I also don't smell gasoline when riding.

The bike does "crackle" if I'm above 7k rpm and I close the throttle abruptly.

I'll take pictures of the plugs and post them here when I take them out.

Also, where do you guys buy maintenance parts from? (air filter, plugs, floats, needles, etc)? Amazon? AutoZone?

I'll prob change out the air filter for sure. But my local AutoZone isn't well stocked with motorcycle stuff. Hopefully they have oil for the air filter.

[DaBlue1]

I run 87 once. I tried 93. Same results. - Run 87 for Better performance. Higher octanes are a waste of money and not as efficient in the 250.

Never rode on interstate.- Do it. Get the engine nice and heated

What is a snorkel? - A piece of rubber the sticks out of the airbox. Loose stuff under the passenger seat can fall into or block it.


Exhaust smells like exhaust. I don't know the difference between normal exhaust vs gasoline exhaust smell. - Usually when the bike is running with the choke on the exhaust is thick/heavy smelling. You'll be able to tell the difference between the two (choke on/off) Try it.


The bike does "crackle" if I'm above 7k rpm and I close the throttle abruptly. -That's normal. Most slip ons are empty tin cans anyway. Ease off the throttle instead of closing it slam shut.


Also, where do you guys buy maintenance parts from? (air filter, plugs, etc)? Amazon? AutoZone?- Spark plugs, oil, oil filters, antifreeze, chain lube) can al be bought at your local auto parts store. Air filters are mostly bought online.


...my local AutoZone isn't well stocked with motorcycle stuff. Hopefully they have oil for the air filter. - Regular engine oil is all you need. Advance Auto has a motorcycle/small engine section

[cadd]

I don't remember seeing that piece. So....I guess the previous owner removed the snorkel already. When I remove the panels on the right side of the bike, I see 3 or 4 bolts remove the air filter.

But iI'll have to check again tonight.

[cadd]

Got off work early. Started to take her apart. Have to wait until tmr to do more research on how to remove airbox and carbs.

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by cadd

Got off work early. Started to take her apart. Have to wait until tmr to do more research on how to remove airbox and carbs.

One easy thing you can do is carefully (with the proper screwdriver) take the top off off one of the carbs and look at the needles to see if they have been shimmed.
http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=11963

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by DaBlue1

The tank's capacity is 4.8 gals, however you can not put a full 4.8 gals of full in it the normal way. There is a small amount of air space that you can't fill, also there is a small amount of fuel left in the tank when it is on "E". Unless you completely dry the tank turn it upside down and fill it from the bottom, then you may be able to get the full 4.8 gals of gas in it.

[cadd]

I stand corrected. It looks like there is a snorkel there. I'm draining my tank now. Takes a long time to drain a full tank through the petcock!!

Thx for the needle advice. But I think I want to take the carbs off to clean them anyway.

Is there a DIY with pictures somewhere on this site that explains how to remove the carbs? This is as far as I've gone. Airbox in the way. Everything is so tight.

[cadd]

Here's my choke. Seems like it's working properly?

http://youtu.be/jlaJi9wnYhM

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by cadd

Is there a DIY with pictures somewhere on this site that explains how to remove the carbs? This is as far as I've gone. Airbox in the way. Everything is so tight.

Here ya go...

Directory of all 250R DIY threads on Ninjette.org

Cleaning the carbs 1

Cleaning the carbs 2

How do I get the diaphragms back in correctly?

Video- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U3a_FtDSqg

[cadd]

Thank you!!!

[cadd]

For those of you with the stock airbox, did you have to remove the rear fairing to move the airbox back to get the carbs out?

[Yakaru]

be super duper careful with the diaphragms; also I recommend using Vaseline when you put them back -- will help things go into place without needing to put any tear-risking pressure on them.
As for airbox: I believe you do; but first thing I did before messing with my old 250's carbs was remove the airbox and move to pod filters :P

[ForceofWill]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

be super duper careful with the diaphragms; also I recommend using Vaseline when you put them back -- will help things go into place without needing to put any tear-risking pressure on them.
As for airbox: I believe you do; but first thing I did before messing with my old 250's carbs was remove the airbox and move to pod filters :P

Agreed. One of the first things I did too. Once you get rid of the stock air box and kleen air crap everything is so much easier.

[cadd]

I have no idea what the diaphragm are and why I need to be careful. I'll just have to read more.

How much are pod filters? Any pros? Any cons for using them?

[agentbad]

Take a look at the spark plugs and post pictures. If you take the carbs off remove the jets and note the small number written on the side of each one. This will tell you if it's been rejetted or running stock. Also as mentioned above if you can get access to the fuel/air mix screws someone has already messed with carbs. 2 and half turns out is stock maybe a little more with the exhaust.

[Yakaru]

pod filter is $35 or so: http://amzn.com/B00062YHYM

what you're doing is having the air intake not go through an airbox. It frees up a ton of space, makes working on the carbs easier, increases the amount of air you push through (in other words you'll want to tune the carbs to make the mix richer), and will make the bike louder.

pros: high end power, easy to work on carbs, 'bonus' space under seat (you can ziptie a flat kit or something similar here)
cons: need to redo carbs, bike will be more sensitive to changes such as elevation, will want to keep an eye on it as you do maintenance.

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by cadd

I have no idea what the diaphragm are and why I need to be careful. I'll just have to read more.

How much are pod filters? Any pros? Any cons for using them?

The diaphragms are the rubber slides underneath the black caps in the top of the carbs. You should remove them before cleaning the carbs with any strong solvents or soaking of the carb body.



Pros and cons to pod filters? See this thread-Leave the airbox in???

[cadd]

Thanks again!

The carbs will have to wait until the wkend. I'll post pics of everything when I have them out.

I'll post spark plug pics as well.

I think I'll just keep the oem airbox. I want to keep it as stock as possible so it'll be easier to sell in a year or two.

[cadd]

Anyone know what this represents? Am I running too rich?

How should I resolve this issue?

[agentbad]

Yep to rich. If they were white it would be to lean.

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by cadd

Anyone know what this represents? Am I running too rich?

How should I resolve this issue?

Kind of hard to tell because the pic is kind of dark. I'd say you are rich at the point where you cut the engine off. So if the bike was idling before you cut it off, you're probably rich at idle, we know this already because you can start the bike with no choke in really cold weather.

Have a good look down at the insulator. Is it black or tan looking?
I'd look to see if the needles have shims or not or if you even have the stock needles. No stock needles, chances are you may have a jet kit installed.

[cadd]

Yup the carbs have been worked on. Just from looking at the stripped screws from the clamp that hold the carbs to the motor.

This is under the carbs. Looks like the adjustment screws caps have been taken off as well.