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Old August 21st, 2021, 03:49 PM   #1
Bob KellyIII
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Crotch Rocket design ?

Howdy all !
with the acquisition of the 2012 250R it is the first experience I have had with a full blown crotch rocket, although I did have a Honda Interceptor 500cc
when I lived in Reno,Nv. but I think of this one as a true Crotch rocket !
it handles like one and acts like one so I guess it is one ! even if it's only a 250cc !
.... My statement here might be misconstrued so I will try to pick my words carefully and try not to offend anyone .... but from my experience so far I would not give this Ninja 10 out of 10.... the main problem I find is body position... in the bent forward position on the bike that your forced to ride in
you do NOT have as much control as a back straight body straight type position that I am used to.... and that does effect your balance....just about every where.... from maneuvering it in the back yard, a store parking lot or
carving corners on a twisting road.... the lean forward design SUCKS !
I already know I can carve corners much better on the TT250...just because of the body position on it. although I have not completely figured out the what and why of the balance problem for me, is.... the leaning forward
seems to be the major part of the problem.
I know alot of you guys take the Ninja to the track, and have other bikes as well, My question to you is, in your opinion is the forward lean design actually as safe as the normal riding position on just about any other bike ?
....I'm not saying the Ninja design is unsafe, it takes alot of getting used to...
but I'm fairly certain I can put the machine where I want to now...
my riding duration time has been slowly increasing and I did expect my rides to be short lived due to my aching ass ! and that has been proven !
but what gets me is in slow turns like at a stop sign and turning left getting going is no where as stable as on another bike ... and I find that WEIRD !
and I really haven't figured out why it's like that !.... Yet....
any suggestions ?
Bob.........
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Old August 21st, 2021, 05:27 PM   #2
Triple Jim
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You ARE sitting on the driver's seat and not the passenger's seat, right?
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Old August 21st, 2021, 06:42 PM   #3
Bob KellyIII
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LOL... Yes I do believe so.... unless the gas tank is actually the seat...
HAHAHA !
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Old August 22nd, 2021, 05:07 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII View Post
Howdy all !
with the acquisition of the 2012 250R it is the first experience I have had with a full blown crotch rocket, although I did have a Honda Interceptor 500cc
...
the main problem I find is body position... in the bent forward position on the bike that your forced to ride in
you do NOT have as much control as a back straight body straight type position that I am used to.... and that does effect your balance....just about every where.... from maneuvering it in the back yard, a store parking lot or
carving corners on a twisting road.... the lean forward design SUCKS !
I already know I can carve corners much better on the TT250...just because of the body position on it. although I have not completely figured out the what and why of the balance problem for me, is.... the leaning forward
seems to be the major part of the problem.

I know alot of you guys take the Ninja to the track, and have other bikes as well, My question to you is, in your opinion is the forward lean design actually as safe as the normal riding position on just about any other bike ?
....I'm not saying the Ninja design is unsafe, it takes alot of getting used to...
but I'm fairly certain I can put the machine where I want to now...
my riding duration time has been slowly increasing and I did expect my rides to be short lived due to my aching ass ! and that has been proven !
but what gets me is in slow turns like at a stop sign and turning left getting going is no where as stable as on another bike ... and I find that WEIRD !
and I really haven't figured out why it's like that !.... Yet....
any suggestions ?
Bob.........
This is biomechanical issue. Having ridden motos for 37-years and done 12-years of velodrome and road-racing (mostly crits), and making it to Olympic trials in 1992 for kilo, I see there are several areas that's causing you issues. Trying to address in logical order, however, they all affect your riding simultaneously:

1. back positioning - Yes, you are correct that straight back is preferred, both for comfort and control. Reason you've found upright straight-back position easier is this removes upper body-weight from handlebars. However, this can be done in upright or leaned-over seating positions. I'll use bicycles to illustrate since it's easier to see without big moto in way. Many cyclists sit with their lower-back upright on seat and bend middle of back over:





This causes discomfort, pain and fatigue, which limits how much time you can sit on seat. More effective seating-position is to keep back straight, and rotate at hips to bend over; infamous "straight back" cyclists strive for.




Similarly, that issue affects riders on motos as well:



With similar fix of keeping back straight and rotating at hips. Arch your back in reverse and try to put belly-button on tank. This ensures back is straight.





These last photos, while showing proper straight-back positioning illustrates 2nd issue...

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; August 24th, 2021 at 08:40 PM.
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Old August 22nd, 2021, 05:23 PM   #5
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2. Straight arms and bent wrists - puts A LOT of weight on bars and causes wrist pain. Having upper-body weight resting on bars makes them difficult to turn. This is the slow-response you're noticing. It's not the bike, but from your arms fighting each other in opposite directions.



You'll want to position your arms and wrist exactly same way as with upright seating position:



With bent-elbows and wrists in-line with forearm. This removes upper-body weight from bars and allows you to push/pull on bars easily for fast maneuvering.




With elbows bent, forearms are parallel with ground and wrists are straight, exactly same as with upright position. Without any weight on bars, you're not fighting upper-body weight to turn bike. As far as front-tyre's contact-patch is concerned, it can't tell if you're sitting fully-upright or fully bent over. Personally, I prefer my bars at same height as seat. This lowers CoG of bike+rider package and makes for faster transitions from full-upright to full-lean (head & upper-body moves through shorter arc for same lean-angles). Not to mention more aero for faster top-speed on straights.



I chopped fairings to lower bars 6" compared to stock. Then raised them 2" when selling bike.




3. Muscular strength - Of course, this riding position requires strong back-muscles to hold upper-body without putting weight on hands. Even though I'm not racing velodrome any more, I still take 1-month in winter to build up strength in arms, back & legs. We all lose strength over course of year, especially with age. I've found roman-chair back-lift exercise shown below to be most effective. I start with barely being able to do 10-reps in beginning to doing 20 easily while holding 25-lb weight to my chest (some people put weight on back of shoulders). Really helps with moto-racing as I'm no longer fatigued and tired by end of day. Even did 4 trackdays in row once with 2 of them going out in both B and A groups (that's 5-hrs/day)!


Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; August 25th, 2021 at 08:30 AM.
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Old August 22nd, 2021, 06:45 PM   #6
Bob KellyIII
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OK Yah ! I see what your saying Danno ! yes my upper body weight is definitely directly down on the handle bars... rotating at the hips rather than bending the back does seem like a smarter move....
I'll see if I can actually do that on the ninja !
I do think that will cure the handling problem though... ya can't steer when your holding yourself up ....hence half the problems....
..... I gott'a think on that one ...thank you !!!!!

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Old September 8th, 2021, 04:11 PM   #7
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Excellent explanation with the pictures! I was doing the "rounding of the back" thing when I first started, and yeah, that hurts a lot. I learned how to rotate fro the hips, and keep the back flatter, which helped tremendously.

I don't find the "forward" position of the Ninja hard to handle at all. My weight rests on my feet and on the seat, not on my hands.

I've demo'd a couple bikes that had a more upright position and it felt weird. I didn't think it improved handling, either. I think it's a matter of what one prefers for a seat position more than anything.
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Old October 16th, 2021, 07:41 PM   #8
Bob KellyIII
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I think the Ninja has RUENED ME !!!!!
I rode the TT250 to mt.Shasta city last evening to delever some papers to the guy wanting to trade my Quad for a KLR.... so I took the TT250 at 43 to 45 mph... 11 miles up there and 11 back and I had a hell of a time getting the corners right.... and I noticed I was riding like I did on the ninja and started counter balancing in the corners instead.... that was much better !
I guess most of my riding in the past was counter balancing or simply locked to the bike.... but with that tall TT250 it likes counter balancing !
.... it's funny that I've never really paid attention to Riding style in the past and now I'm getting a crash course ! ....
the roads here are slow corners for the most part, not like back at the Ranch
and yes the Ninja likes those alot.... but i've yet to aquire the skill it takes to drag a knee and like just becoming part of the bike locked to it and it's balance
so that is slower in the corners by a long shot, but to me it is more relaxing.
yes I have to be aware of dragging foot pegs and all that but that just tells me it is time to slow down a bit ! ...
but riding using counterbalance like the CHP uses all the time is good but in so doing I have frequently drug parts.
and locking yourself in the saddle is no better as it does the same.
so the hanging your butt and body out to dry on a corner may well keep those parts from dragging and if it don't your doing something wrong, it's not relaxing to me at all.... fun yes, relaxing no !
.... just some observations I gained from last nights ride with a dim headlight
.... you see I hadn't adjusted the headlight down from when I took out all the preload on the TT250 and the low beam was all I could use as the high beam was in the trees ! ( i lowered the High beam a bit ago, and added some wide foot pegs and wow what a difference ! $60.00 well spent ! )
it's strange, but I almost feel now that the bike determines the riding style that needs to be used on it.... and I know deep down that's not true
but that TT250 needs counterbalancing... ! at least for me !
LOL....
Bob.........
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Old October 20th, 2021, 03:28 PM   #9
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Actually, you'll want to incorporate BOTH techniques into your riding as they are both valid depending upon conditions. At higher-speeds, you'll want to place body inside of bike to lean it less to have higher cornering power in reserve as well as to prevent scraping pegs, exhausts and handlebars or rolling off edge of tyre.



However, if you are going at slower speeds on more technical course with lots of left-right transitions, moving your body from one side to other of bike requires A LOT of muscle because you're moving body over larger arc than bike itself. This takes longer amount of time and detracts from what actually causes bike to corner... lean angle of tyre!

Most people think it's steering-angle or countre-steering that causes bike to turn. That's not quite right as those only initiates going from upright to leaning. It's actual lean-angle that causes bike to turn. Once you're leaned over, steering-angle/countre-steering is not relevant as steering is often aimed straight, or even away from corner. What this lean-angle does is make tyres generate camber-thrust which is actually what causes cornering:



Contact patch of leaned-over tyre is similar to cone with outside edge having larger diameter than inside. Notice that diameter of centre of tire is larger than diameter at edge of tread? This causes leaned-over tyre to carve a curve with larger diameter outside contact-patch edge overtaking and running circles around smaller inside edge. A single tyre leaned over will carve corner by itself! without any need or help from steering-angle (unicycle).

So larger lean angle, the greater differences in diameter of outside vs. inside edge and more cornering camber-thrust force is generated.






So you have subconsciously picked up on this effect and noticed that bike corners faster and better when leaned over more. At lower speeds, you've noticed that it's much, much easier to get bike from full-upright to full-lean by "counter balancing" or leaning bike more than body. This allows you to do rapid transitions from full-lean on one side to the other because it doesn't require moving your body mass. So you're able to get tyres to full lean-angle quickly to generate more cornering force!



Here's an example of both in use:

Link to original page on YouTube.


-----------------------------------------
REFERENCES:
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10...-4614-8544-5_3
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10...-030-13062-6_1
https://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/counter1.html - summary of above

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Old October 20th, 2021, 08:42 PM   #10
Bob KellyIII
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Wow ! Thank you for that Danno I appreciate all the work that went into that explanation....and I cannot find anything to disagree with in the entire post...so you thought about this a while ! THANK YOU ! and your Right ! dead on !
.....
Now I think I will take my flashlight and go drool all over my NEW to ME 1977 Triumph Bonneville 750 !!!!!you should be able to see the glow from my smile from there ! I am really super happy !
later !
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Old October 20th, 2021, 08:47 PM   #11
Triple Jim
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Now I think I will take my flashlight and go drool all over my NEW to ME 1977 Triumph Bonneville 750 !!!!!
Congratulations! How's the seat height?
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Old October 20th, 2021, 08:54 PM   #12
Bob KellyIII
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HAHAHAHA ! I have no idea but I don't need a ladder to get on it...and the seat is in great shape too and for being that old that is unreal ! looks original too.
it doesn't have the stock exhaust pipes on it, it's got some shortie almost nonexistent pipes on it ...and it is LOUD ! but that is easily fixed!
AND it DOES have a center stand !!!!!!

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Old October 21st, 2021, 09:11 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Here's an example of both in use:

Link to original page on YouTube.

hahaha, that rear sprocket is bigger than their rotor.
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Old October 21st, 2021, 09:45 AM   #14
Bob KellyIII
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yah but that Kid can Ride.... he has had lot's of practice to do that !
....
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Old February 14th, 2024, 03:09 AM   #15
Bob KellyIII
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well, just the modifications I have already done....
I changed the shortie mufflers and put on stock bullet shaped mufflers
as I have always liked them.... the stock ones that were originally on it were a megaphone type design and they were ugly i think so I got the retro mufflers
which quieted it down by quite a bit but it is still a loud bike I would guess about 85 DB above idle.
handle bars were stock and not bent ( which is odd) and in great shape so I left them on it. just adjusted their height to proper level.... they put my arms slightly downward to Shirt pocket height for my hands.... that is very comfortable for long hauls .and a good position for full control.
the foot pegs do not fold on the bike they are solid straight pieces of steel
but I realised why they did that all those decades ago because that keeps the side plates from being scratched should you lay it over...so I left them alone and just put new rubbers on them.
One of the biggest problems with Triumphs was the electrics they were notorious for leaving you stranded in the middle of no where so I replaced it with a new pointless ignition system.... the other major problem with them were the AMIL Carburetors...stock carbs did not have a removable pilot jet
and even with several filters in line plugged up all the time and it was a major pain to clean them because you had to dissemble the entire carb to clean the pilot curcuit.... it hurt but I replaced them with Amil aftermarket carbs that had removable pilot jets and I am real glad I did I have cleaned them several times over the last 3 years because they keep getting plugged up because it sets so much....
....
I put a small chrome rack on the back behind the short sissy bar that is on it
and a tool pouch on it.
I can flat foot the bike and I have a 30" inseam yet both feet are on the ground with knees slightly bent..... the way it should be !
the power is so strong its scary suspension not very good at all
brakes have all new pads and have been brought back from a total lock up
the rear took a new resivour to make it work again.... front was fine but the rotor was warped so it was replaced..... front brake works real good back not the best but it will lock it up you just have to press real hard.
....to me the Triumph is what a motorcycle was meant to be...it's perfect
comfortable to ride fast handles very well and the power to go anywhere you point it....
they do not make them like this any more the new Triumphs are taller
heavier with less power. but they look cool !
this bike is my Pride an Joy..... but I don't ride it for fear of hurting it which is stupid.... so why have it? I decided to sell it so I can get a ranch again
and move back to the country and get out of this small town....
(too many people! ) I ride the XR650L mostly..... so the Triumph and Ninja 250R will be sold to get the Ranch ..... i need a truck and tractor not 2 motorcycles now.... times change ! LOL
Bob........
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Old February 14th, 2024, 05:44 AM   #16
Triple Jim
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You know "Portogon" is a bot, right?
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Old February 14th, 2024, 06:12 PM   #17
Bob KellyIII
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no... i have no idea... thanks Jim.
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Old February 15th, 2024, 05:45 AM   #18
Triple Jim
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no... i have no idea... thanks Jim.
Bob......
The name and location are clues, as is the way it just repeats what was posted above and asks silly questions about it.
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Old February 15th, 2024, 08:31 AM   #19
Bob KellyIII
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yah I noticed that about the post after you said that..... thanks!
....so have you taken the H1 out lately or has it been too cold? been too cold here and I think all my batteries need charging I havent started them for 2 months !
....
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Old February 15th, 2024, 04:33 PM   #20
Triple Jim
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It's actually an H2, but I haven't ridden it for a couple months. It has non-ethanol gasoline in it so it shouldn't be a problem. I put about 100 miles on my Yamaha MT-07 today. It was around 60F here, so I ran a long errand on 2 wheels. That one averages mid 60s MPG, whereas the H2 gets right around 30.
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Old February 15th, 2024, 07:30 PM   #21
Bob KellyIII
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LOL yah I keep calling it a H1 but it's not it's a 750 the H1 was a 500.... never really cared for the 500's either the 750 was the beast as far as I was concerned....
never got a 500 to wheelie but I sure did the 750 ! although I am sure you could clutch up a 500cc.... but that is cheating as far as I am concerned ! ....
..... I dunno about the gas.... I put gas preservative in all mine before winter what ever name it is..... 360 anyway. LOL..... it sux getting old ! HA !
when you get used to a comfy bike it's hard to get excited about riding the other one.... I know how that goes ! .... I haven't ridden the Triumph in over a year now..... shame on me! but the XR650L has an electric starter...the Triumph don't ! HAHAHAHAH
today it got all the way up to 50 degrees here..... felt like a heat wave !
LOL and O'l Mt.Shasta is bright white !
later my friend !
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Old February 16th, 2024, 05:42 AM   #22
Triple Jim
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never got a 500 to wheelie but I sure did the 750 ! although I am sure you could clutch up a 500cc.... but that is cheating as far as I am concerned !
A stock H1 that's running properly will go right over backwards if you hold the throttle open in 1st gear through the powerband. They don't have the low-end torque of the H2 though.
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