2006 250R, cranks but no start

[thedrewski86]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

RK is one. I've been using them for 6 or 8 years.

Yup, been running RK for years. They are cheaper than DID and are rated at a higher tensile strength (if that matters to you). I have low hp bikes so it doesn't matter to me, but it seems odd you get a higher spec chain for less money.
I would absolutely run a rivet link over a clip-style master link. I ran out of rivet links last season and ran a clip while I waited for the replacement to arrive. I went for two rides and while cleaning my chain I discovered the clip jettisoned itself from the chain. Needless to say, I didn't ride until the rivet link showed up. I didn't feel like having my left leg or engine case chainsawed through.
Oh, and frosty: check out SportbikeTrackGear.com for chain/sprocket kits. They have a very handy mix'n'match deal where you can pick gear ratios and steel or aluminum sprockets right there on their website. It works out to a really good deal and they're great to work with.

[Triple Jim]

Originally Posted by thedrewski86

Yup, been running RK for years. They are cheaper than DID and are rated at a higher tensile strength (if that matters to you)

If only the tensile strength ratings were done by an independent testing lab.

[frostyflammable]

If I’m reading this right I will need a 106 link chain. This seems to be a decent deal, won’t need it for a while but good to know it’s not too hard to get when needed.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004XAXK3C...4C9R7NV52ADEC2

What is everyone’s favorite chain riveting tool?

—Dan

[thedrewski86]

Originally Posted by frostyflammable

If I’m reading this right I will need a 106 link chain. This seems to be a decent deal, won’t need it for a while but good to know it’s not too hard to get when needed.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004XAXK3C...4C9R7NV52ADEC2

What is everyone’s favorite chain riveting tool?

—Dan

That's a good chain.
My favorite chain tool is the Motion Pro PBR. It's not super cheap but I've used it a lot.
https://www.motionpro.com/product/08-0470

[DannoXYZ]

Try this one: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004XAY5A4
Comes with rivet master-link and gold-coloured coating doesn't rust like bare steel finish.

[Triple Jim]

I hope everyone keeps enough lube on their chains so even the bare steel ones don't rust.

[frostyflammable]

Just to update everyone... I did get all the new parts in (new rings, all new gaskets and the new valve) and got it all installed. Followed the service manual, as far as I can tell very thoroughly, and the engine is back together. That is the good news.

The bad news is it still will not fire. I did run my compression testers on both cylinders and all I am getting is 120-125 on both cylinders. I left it alone for a couple of minutes and it did not seem to loose pressure, maybe a few PSI as far as I can tell. Both cylinders run the exact same pressure, within 5 PSI of each other and I cannot hear any leakage and the service manual shows that I need at least 140 (if my memory serves me right) in order for it to start.

I checked again for spark and visually it is very strong and the spark plugs smell like gas. I even tried to carb cleaner as starting fluid but no luck. It seems after a few spins that it wants to start but just never does.

When time allows I will go back and check my timing and re-check the valve lash but I did set the lash as per book.

Looks like I have to do some more troubleshooting, unless three compression testers are wrong (which could happen I am sure) to get this old bike to run.

--Dan

[DannoXYZ]

Compression is fine, really only needs about 60-70psi to start an engine.
You'll get 140psi with warmed up engine.

try squirting some petrol into airbox, 2-3cc.
Let it sit about 30-sec.
Then try starting it.


Also, what colour wires are connected to your ignition-coil on left side? On right side?

[Triple Jim]

Originally Posted by frostyflammable

I left it alone for a couple of minutes and it did not seem to loose pressure, maybe a few PSI as far as I can tell.

There's a check valve in the tester, so waiting to see if it loses pressure is just verifying that the check valve is working. The cylinder was probably back down to atmosphere by then.

[Bob KellyIII]

I've started a one lung engine on 90 psi for compression before, I did it with quick start.... Look on the label and see if your carb cleaner is flammable if it's not it ain't gunn'a help ! ....I'd use quick start ( either)
that thing should run even if it's only till the quick start is out of it's system
.....
I never did like putting gasoline in air boxes,.... fires start that way !
you should have them disconnected from the airboxes anyway at this time and just the bare carbs hanging out....so it's easy to give each cylinder a shot of
quickstart...
when I'm having trouble getting an engine to start I will even sprey quick start into the carb as I am turning the engine over.... that almost always gets results.... one way or another... like a big back fire or a putt putt or two.
....
I'm thinking dirty carbs now ...if both main jets are plugged it probably won't fire at all... just on the quick start...
so see if you can get some burps ,farts or bangs out of that thing with the quick start ! ( some times it takes alot... usually not though !)
keep after it ! You can get it !
Bob........

[DannoXYZ]

don't use ether, it'll melt your slide diaphragms.
potentially even damage the plastic slides

[Bob KellyIII]

lol never heard that one before... but it would not surprise me one bit...
in the last 25 years I have seen the rubber in seals be effected by the wrong kind of transmission oil, brake parts are now very finicky on the fluid they have to have in them... and so on... it would not surprise me at all that the plastic bits in carburetors would melt with the wrong fuel or cleaner used ...what's the world coming to ? HAHAHAH

[frostyflammable]

@DannoXYZ... good to know compression is fine, I assumed the 140-something in the manual was for a warm engine but good to have confirmation. I should have also mentioned that I took the airbox off, right now its just the carbs on with no filter. Not the best I know but for testing should do.

For the coil wires, they are black on the green terminal (top terminal) and red on the bottom on cylinder 1. Cylinder 2 has the green wire on the green terminal (top terminal) and red on the bottom. Seems this would the way form factory as the red wire is quite a lot longer to reach the bottom terminal.
@Bob KellyIII... never thought about a carb cleaner not being flammable, I learn something new every day on these interwebs. The one I use is Gumout carb cleaner, but I will go by a auto parts store and pick up some actual starting fluid. I will also pick up one of those carb cleaners that come in gallon jugs with a basket, all I did with this one is clean it with the spray cleaner and some compressed air. A/F screw is 2.5 turns out.

Only thing that sucks is I have quite a few work trips coming up so time to work on this will be limited, but it is super hot here in Texas so may not be so bad to have to wait until to cools down.. you know cold front where it drops the temps into the low 90s

--Dan

[Triple Jim]

Originally Posted by frostyflammable

...but I will go by a auto parts store and pick up some actual starting fluid.

Anything other than gasoline is not recommended because of the delicate rubber diaphragms in these carbs.

[frostyflammable]

Pics of the coils if it helps.

[frostyflammable]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

Anything other than gasoline is not recommended because of the delicate rubber diaphragms in these carbs.

Understood, appreciate the info. Just to bypass the carbs could I just spray some gas into the carb venturi to see if it will at least cough? I do plan on cleaning the carb again but just to confirm it will cough spray some gas direct into the carb?

--Dan

[Triple Jim]

You can, but be ready with a fire extinguisher just in case it's needed.

[jkv45]

If you are getting some sputtering, I would say the carbs are not right.

I don't think Brake Cleaner is going to tell you anything, and as noted, Starting Fluid is bad for the carbs plastic parts. A small shot of gas is a better idea.

All you are looking for is a sign of life. If you get a sputter or momentary run, you know there is a fuel delivery issue of some kind.

Make sure you are charging the battery between attempts, and confirming you have full voltage. Low battery voltage is going to complicate the issue.

If it does sound like it wants to start, but not quite, back the "choke" off a bit and try opening the throttle slightly. Full choke can give you too much fuel quickly, and once it sputters it's best to back off.

[Bob KellyIII]

Humm, if Jim and Danno both say don't use quick start... then you better not use quickstart ! these guys know the bikes real well, learn from them !!!!
I'm speaking of many years of Ranch repair where Quick start was a normal
procedure ! hard to believe they would put anything in a carb that reacts with Quick start but it looks like they did ...Sigh ! gasoline in a sprey bottle
but do not crank it and squirt ! the flame will travel up the stream and to the bottle ! ... don't ask me how I know ! LOL.... been there done that !
.....
through the years so much has changed in Mechanics, it Used to be very simple.... clean the parts and put it back together... but now you have to be real careful on just How you clean those parts, their not metal any more.
and the passage ways inside of carbs are much much smaller than they used to be and they plug up easier. I bought a set of carb cleaning brushes to clean my carbs and they really helped .... an ultrasonic cleaner would be nice!!!
.....
I'm heading out to put a pare of sliders on my Ninja that I hope I will never use ! LOL
....
Bob.....

[Triple Jim]

Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII

Humm, if Jim and Danno both say don't use quick start... then you better not use quickstart ! these guys know the bikes real well, learn from them !!!!

I'm not very experienced with carburetors that have thin rubber diaphragms. Ducatiman is the one who warned me about using anything that could wreck the diaphragms. They're expensive to replace, so it's not worth the risk.

[frostyflammable]

For sure not going to use starting fluid, I will take the lessons learned from others... carbs aren't cheap to replace.

I do have an ultrasonic cleaner I can dunk the whole carb body (with jets and other things removed) into it and let it run. Thinking some simple green, distilled water and let it do its thing see if that helps.

--Dan

[Bob KellyIII]

that sounds like a good plan Dan...
Bob.......

[DannoXYZ]

In old days with massive engines that are industrial and agriculture in nature, they're tough monsters with massive carbs and jets & passages. Difficult to clog those with layer of dried petrol. Doesn't block much.

But these tiny engines with tiny carbs and microscopic jets, just one small piece of dried petrol will completely block it. Especially with modern petrol containing ethanol. The water it sucks out of air will cause metal corrosion resulting in that powdery white flaking on aluminium. Sure to clogs carbs up for good!

[Bob KellyIII]

LOL Yep... but the neet thing is that My 1920 ish...Henry Ferguson TO-20 tractor, a 4 cylinder up draft carb, only made 20 HP today you can carry a 20hp B&S engine because they only weigh 90lbs.... that engine in my tractor weighed about 1000lbs because part of it was the tractor frame ! thick cast iron bell housing
attached to the engine and the front wheels attached to the front of the engine !..... I even put a 120hp Ford Pinto engine on one of those tractors too.
I had to add a engine cradle for it but it worked real good... it was hard to hand crank though, I have to admit ! HAHAHHA !
the old timers used to tell me yah but that was 20 Real Horse power... but I disagreed because it's not the HP they were referring to but the torque !
the flywheel was over 1" thick and at least 150lbs !
but when you compare it to an engine like the Ninja 250R there is no real places to compare too !!!!! the Ninja engine is far more powerful in every respect.. and gets better fuel economy too !
yep the By-gone days were "Interesting" but Not better, in almost every respect. there are aspects of the old days that sometimes I wish still lingered, but it's a small price to pay for such nifty new stuff !
.....
Bob.......

[j98sprint]

I just revived my '02 Ninja 250 that was sitting for 2 1/2 years. It was a daily driver for 7 years prior and was running fine. I put Sta-bil in the tank and drained the carb bowls. I even left the bowl drains open to make sure the carbs stayed dry.

She wouldn't catch when I initially tried to start her. I then sprayed starting fluid into the airbox.....nothing. I then moved the battery out of the way, pulled the airbox back and sprayed starter fluid directly into the carbs.....still nothing.

I knew I had spark and compression so I figured the jets were plugged even though the carbs stayed dry during storage.

Removed the carbs, took them apart, cleaned them, put them back together, then back on the bike and they started right up. I think your carbs just need a cleaning.

Just a note about cleaning the carbs: I have 3 bikes with these Keihin CV carbs and have been running them for years. The cleaning procedure is simple. I just take them apart and make sure the rubber diaphragm is intact, then make sure the tiny holes in the tube that holds the main jet are clear, make sure the tiny holes in the pilot jet are clear, as well as the jet holes themselves. I check that the small o-ring and washer under the mixture screw are in good shape. I use a set of small wire looking things made for carb jets to run through those tiny holes. And last I use a can of brake clean to spray through all the holes in the carb body. Spray in one hole it should come out another.



Reassemble with a small washer under the needles, set the float height, install and we're ready to roll. I have never had to soak anything.

Anyways good luck, I hope this helps.

[DannoXYZ]

Bob! speaking of old tractors.. check this out!
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...60#post1293660

[frostyflammable]

Opinions from the group. On simple green mixture, go with the original green or HD Pro the purple kind? I leaning towards the HD but figured I’d ask.

—Dan

[Bob KellyIII]

no idea never used either of them...
Bob.........

[j98sprint]

No soak needed. With the small red hose attached to the can of brake cleaner just spray through every hole after you strip the carb. If it comes out somewhere the channel is clear. You'll see with the carb disassembled there ain't much to it.

After you spray through all the orifices and the cast-in channels are clear give the entire carb body a thorough blasting with the brake cleaner. Let it dry in the sun or warm it for a while with a hair dryer.

But most importantly make sure the jets and the tiny holes on the side of the pilot jet and the tiny holes on the long tube that the main jet threads into are clear.

But if you wanna soak have at it. Who doesn't like a good soak?

[DannoXYZ]

Spray carb cleaners no longer work due to removal of chlorinated compounds. I used to use it to clean out my sprocket cover when replacing chains. It would drip out thick and black like tar! Nowadays, carb cleaner barely dissolves greasy oil. Spraying in sprocket cover has it dripping out dark grey having hardly dissolved anything. Will certainly not remove dried petrol deposits.

Depending upon how long (might be 10-yrs+), and what conditions OP's carbs were left in, may require a full restoration. Meaning full teardown to every last nut, bolt, jets, o-rings down to individual components. Then scrub everything with PEA-based fuel-system cleaner. Most important to scrub out all hidden secret petrol passages in carb body. Along with ultrasonic soak and micro soda blasting. There are carbs dirty enough to require full restoration work!

HOWEVER, OP has not proven through testing that lack of petrol flow into engine is causing this no-start condition! Need to test bypassing carbs by squirting some petrol directly through throats into engine intake. Then cranking to start bike. DEPENDING upon RESULTS of this test, we can then with 100% certainty say ,"Ah, carbs aren't delivering fuel to engine". At this point, we don't have actual data to draw that conclusion.

[Bob KellyIII]

I've heard that before with old time equipment repair... that if left too long the green stuff will etch the metal fairly bad....
the part being cleaned had 1" of grease and grime on it and the guy just threw it in there like that, and left it for 4 days.... in a straight solution...
it was clean when he took it out but the smoothe parts were etched as well
.... granted that is an extreme case and I think for normal use it would be a great cleaner... just make darn sure you wash it good afterwards because it is a strong acid....
... my 2 cents !
Bob.......

[DannoXYZ]

DO NOT use Simple Green ever! It dissolves metal!!! This was discovered over 20-yrs ago by cyclists who soaked their chains in Simple Green to clean. Chains came out with cracks!! Further confirmed by testing with already clean chains and weighing before & after soaking. Significant amounts of metal had been removed to render chain unuseable!

U.S. Navy and Army have also forbidden use of Simple Green for cleaning aircraft. It had been implicated in crashing Chinook helicopter due to causing cracks in airframe.

http://www.chinook-helicopter.com/ma.../cleaners.html

directive from safety.army.mil - fmar2000.doc

Simple Green’s Not for Aircraft Washing

​Don’t Use "SIMPLE GREEN" for washing aircraft or aircraft components.

It has been brought to the attention of the AMCOM Depot Maintenance Engineering Team that numerous units are using the commercial product SIMPLE GREEN as an aircraft wash. STOP! This product has been through DoD testing and was determined to be highly corrosive on aircraft aluminum. It can also be a catalyst for hydrogen embrittlement in high strength aircraft alloys.

While it is a highly effective cleaning agent for floors and non-aluminum/non-high strength alloy vehicles, this product is not approved for aviation usage. ​
If your unit has been using SIMPLE GREEN on a regular
basis, it is recommended that a thorough fresh water wash with the approved cleaners per the appropriate airframe maintenance manuals be accomplished as soon as practicable. This should be followed up with a corrosion inspection/treatment and application of approved CPCs.

Insure that no unauthorized cleaning products are being used on your aircraft or in the shops as a component cleaner.

Mr. Richard Cardinale, corrosion@amcom-cc.army.mil,
(361)961-4041, DSN 861-4041

from safetycenter.navy.mil

MSgt. Larry Stulz
Wright-Patterson AFB, Ohio

We appreciate your information about Simple Green. Lt. David Mims, head of the Occupational and Environmental Health Division here at the Safety Center, researched the Simple Green situation. He found that the Naval Air Warfare Center (NavAir) disapproved of the use of Simple Green for naval aviation in 1993. They have a documented incident of crazing of an F-18 canopy following the unauthorized use of Simple Green. According to an official at NavAir, they have tested the product at least three times since 1989. Simple Green fails sandwich corrosion and total immersion-corrosion tests for aluminum. That official also said NavAir recommended that commands remove Simple Green from their spaces. It’s just too easy for someone who’s told to clean something to grab a bottle of Simple Green off the shelf and use it on an airplane or equipment made of aluminum.

[Triple Jim]

Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII

just make darn sure you wash it good afterwards because it is a strong acid....

If it's etching aluminum it's more likely its a strong base.

[DannoXYZ]

Not sure what's in that stuff, it hurts both steels and alloys.

[Bob KellyIII]

and cast iron... it's mean SH#* .... and I never ware those nitrite type gloves either.... it sounds as bad as Golden Rod insect killer for around the barn....
it plainly states keep away from pets but unless you want a bunch of dead cats dogs racoons and deer on your property don't buy that stuff !
and fumigation with sulfur to rid the house of ALL bugs works great... but do NOT walk through a cloud of smoke of that stuff ...it will kill you just as easy !
I got one breath of that stuff and it took me 10 minutes to be able to breathe again scared the hell out of me !!! ....never again !
LOL
...
Bob......

[DannoXYZ]

hey Bob! Are you ADHD by any chance??? >

[Bob KellyIII]

LOL I don't think so..... but I could be wrong ! LOL
definitely not Hyper activite... but attention depisit that is a possibility ! HAHAHAHA.... now what were we talking about anyway ?

.....
Bob.......

[DannoXYZ]

heh, heh... I'm extremely ADHD and talk the way you write, so I just figured. I actually developed coping mechanisms well before this was an actual condition in DSM. Although I find not trying to resist it too much makes things easier. I just have to go jump out of planes and dive off cliffs and race cars & bikes on regular basis to get my "fix".

[DannoXYZ]

Ok frosty, let's do some simple stuff before you have to go through complications of removing carbs and doing full restoration job:

1. where did you get your new plugs? There's A LOT of countrefeit plugs on maket. Some links on spotting them:
https://www.ngkntk.com/newsroom/blog...to-avoid-them/
https://www.blingstrom.com/modmonday...ce-ilfr6b-6481
https://www.diycarserviceparts.co.uk...k-spark-plugs/
Can also try putting old plugs back in.

2. what colour is spark when you tested plugs?

3. with key ON, what voltage do you measure at red wires on each coil?

4. test petcock flow. Disconnect fuel-hose from carbs and aim into measuring cup. Apply vacuum to petcock's vaccum line. How much petrol flowed out in 15-sec?

5. do carb bypass test. Easier to put airbox on and pour 2-3cc petrol down holes in top. No squirt bottle needed. Some will drip out seam at bottom, that's Ok (have fire-extinguisher ready).

Reason to do this test with airbox is volume of air in box helps vapourise petrol and gives you more run-time to validate test. Engine can actually run for 5-10s on petrol poured into airbox. Versus may get only 1-2 sputters by pouring into intake directly because liquid petrol doesn't ignite and burn. And after 1-2 revolutions, all that unburned liquid petrol will have been ejected out exhaust.


Alright, with this info, we may be just one step away from getting your bike running!

[Bob KellyIII]

LOL I write how I think.....scaterbrained !
ok it takes Gas, compression, and ignition. for an engine to start, and they have to be in the right order... which complicates it a bit.
although 90% of the "Questionables" you have already been through Dan...
so which ones haven't you attacked yet ?
you got compression now,
you THINK you got correct spark Now
what do you know about the fuel situation ?
....
from what I gather here on Ninjette the tiny side tubes from the main jet and pilot jet are the main offenders on these carbs DID YOU Clean them spicificly ?
when you cleaned the carbs ? or just a float bowl cleaning and knock the stuff out of the jets ?
.....
if my guess is right, those side tubes are the air inlet to the emulsfier tubes
for both the main jet and the pilot jet... gas will go up them about half way
and if it set's long enough it will solidify and plug the passage.
that alone is a show stopper ! it won't run worth doo doo if those are even partly plugged... in your case it may not fire at all because of it. ( which i am leaning toward as the cause.) the engine can't get ATOMIZED fuel...
it will get Raw fuel but it won't be atomized...
so wet plugs means your getting fuel but it doesn't tell you if it is Atomized or not....
in days gone by all you needed to know was if the thing was getting fuel or not, but these things are very particular on their 14:1 air to fuel ratio if it's say 20:1 it might not run at all, if it's 5: 1 it certainly won't ! and yet there is no way to tell what kind of Ratio you are getting out of the carbs without it running....
so your at a delima ... Answer Danno's questions then clean the carbs again
unless you find something else !!!

a year or so ago I had a 1998 XS 650 Yamaha Twin Heritage model
and it had set for well over 10 years... so I knew the carbs needed to be thoroughly cleaned.... I did so ... and did it again... and again... but the last time I discovered a tube machined into the float bowl that was completely plugged
I had never seen such a thing on ANY float bowl before !
I finally got them cleaned and back on and it fired right up !
.....
it's what you don't know, that get's ya !!!!!!!
....
later !
Bob........