ABS or no ABS...

[headshrink]

... that is the question.

All my experience is on an '08 250, so obviously I learned to ride without ABS, and am comfortable without it. In considering MC replacement options I'm seeing ABS becoming more and more common on motorcycles, and can certainly see benefit, but I have a few questions about it's use on motorcycles.

I've seen a comparison video of ABS vs. no ABS on a wet surface, and it made a HUGE difference. Normally that alone would be convincing, but that test was a straight track....

Situation of primary concern:
One of the bikes I'm considering is the CBR500r, which comes with the combined-type of ABS. So lets say I take a tight curve a little to fast, or for some other reason need to trail-break... Without ABS I feel I have more control in that type of situation because I can give the bike a very specific input that it will obey. If the combined-type by definition adds front for me, would this make the situation worse in this type of condition? I realize it won't lock the front, but I assume it would put more weight up front, which I'm not sure is a good thing when leaning over. Of course it's better to avoid the situation, but then we wouldn't need ABS if we could anticipate accident.

I'm not sure which type of ABS the Ninja 300 has, but maybe someone can fill me in on that too, as it's currently my 2nd choice.

EDIT: Sorry if the ABS/no ABS question has been asked a few times, but I don't think I've seen this specific question asked/answered before.

[allanoue]

I would have gotten ABS if it came in white

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?p=829912

[Alex]

Linked braking is a completely separate topic from ABS. Linked braking is when one control affects both front and rear brakes. (pull the lever, and front and rear activate. Or press the pedal, and front and rear activate).

ABS keeps either wheel from approaching full lockup, and lessens the pressure on just that wheel to prevent that lockup.

I don't believe that the Honda 500's have linked brakes. Both controls operate both sets of brakes independently. The C-ABS nomenclature is a little misleading, meaning that the ABS functionality combines with the normal hydraulic components to provide the best fell at the lever, whether ABS engages or not. I didn't think that Honda was using that C-ABS system on the 500's; that is on their more expensive sportbikes at the moment.

http://www.cbr50***********m/forum/wh...ar-brakes.html

http://www.cbr50***********m/forum/ho...hed-off-2.html

[alex.s]

use PTFE instead of ABS, its better

[Sirref]

ptfe?

Personally abs is nice to have as a mental relaxant, like you don't have to really worry about panic braking correctly if the need arises but it's not really the most useful thing day to day. Riding in the wet could make it useful as well. As it is I've never actually used my abs with the exclusion of the rear at stops from time to time. Overall it's not needed but it's nice to have if you can get it.

[rojoracing53]

No ABS

I prefer to be one of those rare riders that actually knows how to control his whole machine.

[Alex]

You don't need anti-lock brakes. You need anti-fall-over-from-sail-on-back-of-bike electronics.

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by Alex

You don't need anti-lock brakes. You need anti-fall-over-from-sail-on-back-of-bike electronics.

Just keeping things interesting, for me and apparently everyone else around me.

[Alex]

Damn it, I answered too early. I should have gone with the Maury meme first, it made me chuckle louder. But better late than never:

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by Alex

Damn it, I answered too early. I should have gone with the Maury meme first, it made me chuckle louder. But better late than never:

[Racer x]

I will weigh in on this. I think it depends on the rider/ bike / conditions.
Racer. No
Weekend worrier probably
Commuter yes
Touring definitely

The racer should know how to use the brakes as a tool to set the suspension. Abs might do unwanted things
Other people week end worriers and commuters might Benni fit if they have to ride in the rain. Or have crappy city streets.
But touring bike riders have something no one else has to deal with. Mental fatigue. After riding ten hours looking for a hotel and going around a oil dripped wet exit ramp. Yes ABS will make a difference.

I have not ridden the little ninja with ABS. But I had a VFR with abs and have ridden old and new BMW with ABS. The old BMW was clunky when it activated . The VFR was like the hand brake felt wooden then the bike stopped moving. If you are not ready or could toss you over the bar.
If you get a bike with ABS try to engage them with out killing yourself in the process. You should know what to expect when they activate.

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by alex.s

use PTFE instead of ABS, its better

I only have PVC. Can I get away with that?

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

No ABS

I prefer to be one of those rare riders that actually knows how to control his whole machine.

That would be most of us, since ABS is a newer thing. Squids not included in before mentioned statement.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by headshrink

I only have PVC. Can I get away with that?

PVC, no. but PLA yes. can't have those chemicals leaching out into your sechsybaaady now can we

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by Alex

Linked braking is a completely separate topic from ABS. Linked braking is when one control affects both front and rear brakes. (pull the lever, and front and rear activate. Or press the pedal, and front and rear activate).

ABS keeps either wheel from approaching full lockup, and lessens the pressure on just that wheel to prevent that lockup.

I don't believe that the Honda 500's have linked brakes. Both controls operate both sets of brakes independently. The C-ABS nomenclature is a little misleading, meaning that the ABS functionality combines with the normal hydraulic components to provide the best fell at the lever, whether ABS engages or not. I didn't think that Honda was using that C-ABS system on the 500's; that is on their more expensive sportbikes at the moment.

I stopped by the dealer on the way home today. My brain flooded with dopamine and oxytocin.... so this is going to end up costing me a lot of money [that I don't have]. I may or may not be using some terminology correctly, but I got the term "combined" from the tech section of the Honda world website. Maybe this isn't exactly the same as "linked," but I had assumed it was the same thing. As a rule I never assume dealers or salesmen know what they are selling/talking about, but I asked the salesman anyways. According to him, the brakes on the ABS version of the CBR500r operate like non-"linked" brakes UNLESS the ABS system senses an emergency. In this case the "link" or "combined" feature also kicks in. So I understood this to mean that I could trail-brake without the front being activated..... unless I slam on the brake. So it should all feel and behave the same, unless there is an emergency. Do I have this right?

[Byakkotai]

You need some of this

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by headshrink

As a rule I never assume dealers or salesmen know what they are selling/talking about, but I asked the salesman anyways. According to him, the brakes on the ABS version of the CBR500r operate like non-"linked" brakes UNLESS the ABS system senses an emergency. In this case the "link" or "combined" feature also kicks in. So I understood this to mean that I could trail-brake without the front being activated..... unless I slam on the brake. So it should all feel and behave the same, unless there is an emergency. Do I have this right?

You should follow your rule more closely. Salesman is full of crap.

But to continue, trail-brake doesn't mean use the rear brake, either. (this is trail-braking) But yes, you can use either brake normally in any situation, and it will behave normally in any situation. All the ABS does is keep the wheel that is sensed to be approaching lockup, from actually reaching lockup.

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by Alex

You should follow your rule more closely. Salesman is full of crap.

But to continue, trail-brake doesn't mean use the rear brake, either. (this is trail-braking) But yes, you can use either brake normally in any situation, and it will behave normally in any situation. All the ABS does is keep the wheel that is sensed to be approaching lockup, from actually reaching lockup.

Agreed. I did specifically catch him on a very different page once or twice, but figured he didn't full understand what I had said. Something I'm quite used to. Of course the "upgrade" comments are always indicators that show one's true motives and/or beliefs.

So when all is said and done, I would now understand that this all as regular old ABS, with no link between front and rear. I went back to the original articles from Honda to reference here, but I realized that at some point I was reading about Honda technology, not tech that's specific to the 500r, so you're probably right about the "combined" confusion.

You had me sold on the ABS, except for one problem. Apparently it is only offered on the Black model this year. I must have Red.

[Byakkotai]

Look for 2013 offerings? Always thought Honda usually only offers ABS on their Red bikes...

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by Byakkotai

Look for 2013 offerings? Always thought Honda usually only offers ABS on their Red bikes...

Interesting that you say this, because it WAS only offered on the Red in 2013. However, at this point they aren't easy to get.

[Byakkotai]

Originally Posted by headshrink

Interesting that you say this, because it WAS only offered on the Red in 2013. However, at this point they aren't easy to get.

Ah I didn't know that about the 2013 500R. I just knew the Repsol'd 600RR didn't have c-ABS - Honda slapped it on their red ones last year too. The dealer probably won't cut you that great of a deal on last year models if they have to get it shipped from another dealer huh?

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by Byakkotai

Ah I didn't know that about the 2013 500R. I just knew the Repsol'd 600RR didn't have c-ABS - Honda slapped it on their red ones last year too. The dealer probably won't cut you that great of a deal on last year models if they have to get it shipped from another dealer huh?

I'd be surprised if they could find one, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

[choneofakind]

On a car, I'm a fan of ABS. Since you don't have manual control of each wheel, it's nice to have for when one wheel encounters some gravel or a skips off the pavement on a bump while braking. You also don't need to worry about a car upsetting its own chassis while leaned over. It's a great thing to have.

For 2-wheeled vehicles, I'm not such an instant fan. I've posted on here before, really bashing on electronic rider aids in general, and how I'm not fond of attempting to replace rider proficiency with electronic wizardry. I think I could come around to ABS. I think I could appreciate it, if needed. But the thing is, I've never needed it. From MTB experience, a little wheel slip while riding is an acceptable thing, just feather the wheel accordingly.

But reading through the crash section of this forum (especially with newer riders) shows that most people aren't even capable of controlling a rear wheel skid in a straight line when they panic and go hulk on the brake pedal. This lack of skill (and common sense imho) worries me. That's a case where the ABS might have been helpful. Or that accidental wet stripe on the road, or the surprise rumble strip coming up to an intersection, etc. I think ABS has a place on a bike for a noob as a safety net, but other than that, is it really necessary? An experienced rider should be leaving a large factor of safety in their street riding in the first place, and should be nowhere near the limits of traction (even in a panic), even when they come upon a surprise on wet pavement. Does this mean ABS isn't a good layer of security? Does this mean it's not necessary, that's really up to the individual who purchases the motorcycle.

I think that personally, I would not worry about paying extra for an ABS setup on a new bike. If it comes on a bike that I purchase used and the price difference is not a thing, I could see myself appreciating a little safety net.

Just remember, nothing about a motorcycle is safe. I think it's a bad thing to make ourselves too comfortable through electronic rider aids. When we get comfortable, we get lazy. When we get lazy, we get sloppy. Sloppy riding kills motorcyclists and makes the general public think motorcycles are even more dangerous than they are.

Take or leave what you'd like.

[JohnnyBravo]

I wanted abs, didn't have a bike in a crate, I got non abs... I'm not dead and my bike hasn't blown up yet

[Aufitt]

Manufacturers and salespersons using abs as a selling point to new riders is almost criminal.

[backinthesaddleagain]

My 2009 black cbr600 had abs. It was pretty smooth and the only time I knew it was working was hearing the pump. A nice feature on cold wet New England roads. At my limited speed (fast in middle group , slow in advanced group) it didn't hamper me on the track.

[Aufitt]

My cbr250 had abs, and thought it the best thing ever... till I hopped on the Ninja and almost binned it after 1.5 laps in the very first warm up session of the first ride on it.

40 years of riding, 1.5 yrs on the cbr (all track riding) and it had already trained my muscle memory to be lazy.
Now imagine what its doing to new riders?
They'll do their year on a lams bike with abs, then get their big boy bike and bin it spectacularly first corner.

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by Aufitt

and it had already trained my muscle memory to be lazy.
.

Now that is something that I hadn't articulated, but was also in the back of my mind. Although it's not exactly the same thing, I still catch myself to this day pumping brakes in cars like the old days. I know I don't need to, but my body feels like it needs to keep the brakes cool. This translates over to MCs too, but since I don't currently have ABS on a MC, maybe this isn't such a bad thing. Then there's the clutch. I catch myself about once every couple years trying to engage the clutch... on an automatic. I haven't owned a manual car since the late 90s.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Aufitt

My cbr250 had abs, and thought it the best thing ever... till I hopped on the Ninja and almost binned it after 1.5 laps in the very first warm up session of the first ride on it.

40 years of riding, 1.5 yrs on the cbr (all track riding) and it had already trained my muscle memory to be lazy.
Now imagine what its doing to new riders?
They'll do their year on a lams bike with abs, then get their big boy bike and bin it spectacularly first corner.

For clarity, are you saying that the CBR brakes require very little effort compared to the ninja? I'm unsure exactly how this is purely the result of the ABS, all things equal. That's why I'm asking for clarification.

[mgentz]

Lever pressure. We say sqeeeeeeze in MSF for a reason. With absolutely you can yank with less unfavorable results.

As for abs, I would get it if it was race abs and I could switch it off or at least into different modes.

[mgentz]

Also, I haven't ridden the cbr250 in particular, but some abs systems do make the lever much more spongy or soft.

[Aufitt]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

For clarity, are you saying that the CBR brakes require very little effort compared to the ninja? I'm unsure exactly how this is purely the result of the ABS, all things equal. That's why I'm asking for clarification.

No, not comparing the bikes.. a bike is a bike. (and lets face it 250's don't brake hard as a 600 or 1000cc carrying 100kph more speed into turns after long straights).
*My Ninja has less feel but more grabby once loaded hard. (EBC HH pads and stock lines)

When we brake we 'brush and bury'.
What i'm saying is the abs allowed me (and over time trained my memory) to bury the front deeper and deeper taking away that required precise feel except for the lever pulsing which became normal. even in the wet, or off line/ off camber/ passing slow 1000's/ not getting all the braking done before tipping in/ etc

In a nutshell- a new rider wont know any different if they start on a new abs lams bike.

I never thought it would affect me having ridden so long, but it sure did.

[CycleCam303]

Originally Posted by headshrink

Now that is something that I hadn't articulated, but was also in the back of my mind. Although it's not exactly the same thing, I still catch myself to this day pumping brakes in cars like the old days. I know I don't need to, but my body feels like it needs to keep the brakes cool. This translates over to MCs too, but since I don't currently have ABS on a MC, maybe this isn't such a bad thing. Then there's the clutch. I catch myself about once every couple years trying to engage the clutch... on an automatic. I haven't owned a manual car since the late 90s.

Get on the brakes till correct speed is attained. Get on the gas. Treat the brake just like the throttle. Part of being smooth and controlling the chassis is maintaining balance. You might not be doing this but when most people pump the brakes they have the brakes on then completely get off them and then re apply. The weight goes from forward to neutral multiple times. When entering a corner or achieving maximum braking ability the weight needs to be on the front. Jerking the chassis whether its car or bike limits entry speed, potential grip, and ability to scrub speed.

Preventing lock ups during braking is about feel and modulation. Think easing off the brakes when they start locking. Not jumping off of them.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by CycleCam303

Think easing off the brakes when they start locking. Not jumping off of them.

Yup. Spencer school used to teach that whatever amount of time it took you to first apply and ramp up braking pressure; it should take twice as long to fully release. Letting off too fast can upset the bike just as much as jumping on them in the beginning.

[CycleCam303]

And to answer your question. Ask yourself this, how often have you locked up your brakes? I believe the average street rider isn't comfortable with skidding tires on purpose. So if it makes you more comfortable knowing abs is there then get it. You probably won't use it until you absolutely need to.

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by CycleCam303

Get on the brakes till correct speed is attained. Get on the gas. Treat the brake just like the throttle. Part of being smooth and controlling the chassis is maintaining balance. You might not be doing this but when most people pump the brakes they have the brakes on then completely get off them and then re apply. The weight goes from forward to neutral multiple times. When entering a corner or achieving maximum braking ability the weight needs to be on the front. Jerking the chassis whether its car or bike limits entry speed, potential grip, and ability to scrub speed.

Preventing lock ups during braking is about feel and modulation. Think easing off the brakes when they start locking. Not jumping off of them.

I developed a new habit this year of grabbing my break a moment before releasing gas (slow speeds). I started noticing my front was diving a little too much, and I thought I felt an occasional clunk. It didn't do this in the years prior, so I think I was compensating for a loose or worn steering bearing, which was recently replaced. I wish I could say with certainty that it isn't still doing that, but I'm looking for the new bike due to other issues... so I haven't had the opportunity to really test it.

[Ducati999]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

On a car, I'm a fan of ABS. Since you don't have manual control of each wheel, it's nice to have for when one wheel encounters some gravel or a skips off the pavement on a bump while braking. You also don't need to worry about a car upsetting its own chassis while leaned over. It's a great thing to have.

For 2-wheeled vehicles, I'm not such an instant fan. I've posted on here before, really bashing on electronic rider aids in general, and how I'm not fond of attempting to replace rider proficiency with electronic wizardry. I think I could come around to ABS. I think I could appreciate it, if needed. But the thing is, I've never needed it. From MTB experience, a little wheel slip while riding is an acceptable thing, just feather the wheel accordingly.

But reading through the crash section of this forum (especially with newer riders) shows that most people aren't even capable of controlling a rear wheel skid in a straight line when they panic and go hulk on the brake pedal. This lack of skill (and common sense imho) worries me. That's a case where the ABS might have been helpful. Or that accidental wet stripe on the road, or the surprise rumble strip coming up to an intersection, etc. I think ABS has a place on a bike for a noob as a safety net, but other than that, is it really necessary? An experienced rider should be leaving a large factor of safety in their street riding in the first place, and should be nowhere near the limits of traction (even in a panic), even when they come upon a surprise on wet pavement. Does this mean ABS isn't a good layer of security? Does this mean it's not necessary, that's really up to the individual who purchases the motorcycle.

I think that personally, I would not worry about paying extra for an ABS setup on a new bike. If it comes on a bike that I purchase used and the price difference is not a thing, I could see myself appreciating a little safety net.

Just remember, nothing about a motorcycle is safe. I think it's a bad thing to make ourselves too comfortable through electronic rider aids. When we get comfortable, we get lazy. When we get lazy, we get sloppy. Sloppy riding kills motorcyclists and makes the general public think motorcycles are even more dangerous than they are.

Take or leave what you'd like.

I agree with most of what you said above. I have not raced but in my younger years did ride really stupid on the street. I have not found Anti-lock brakes necessary in over 18 years of riding. I however do see them as a possible asset to new riders. I agree with them needing to be taught the proper modulation of non-abs brakes but in the first few years when they are more likely to become overwhelmed in an emergency stop they could easily be the difference between safe and crash. The only time I have ever wished for ABS was in very heavy down pour on the highway when a car went sideways across in front of me and I had no choice but to grab a big handful of brakes! I did stop but the whole time I was stopping I had ABS on my mind! I also agree with Your statement against rider aids (there are always exceptions to every rule) but with proper training and practice the advantages of them are much less and without proper training they can become a crutch and make someone think they are a better rider than they are!

[cbinker]

I guess ABS could be helpful in parking lot practice, but that takes away the fun of locking the front at 20mph.

[CaptainPlatypus]

If I had money to buy a nice or even nicish bike (I love my baby, but that's despite her issues, not because of them), lack of ABS would be a dealbreaker. On the newer units, even an incredibly skilled professional rider can't outbrake the ABS in the dirt. That, plus not sending myself flying over the handlebars if I do **** up (believe it or not, it happens) is all the endorsement I need. If it lets you ride closer to the limit more safely...why the **** not?

[Ducati999]

Originally Posted by CaptainPlatypus

If I had money to buy a nice or even nicish bike (I love my baby, but that's despite her issues, not because of them), lack of ABS would be a dealbreaker. On the newer units, even an incredibly skilled professional rider can't outbrake the ABS in the dirt. That, plus not sending myself flying over the handlebars if I do **** up (believe it or not, it happens) is all the endorsement I need. If it lets you ride closer to the limit more safely...why the **** not?

I totally see your point but I do not fully agree. I personally feel that I must make myself better all the time and I ride as much as possible, practice where it is safe and apply what I have learned where it is needed. I like the idea of a safety net incase I do make a mistake but the thought of making an error (one requiring ABS) is what makes me pay attention and try harder not to get into a situation where I would need a safety net. I am aware that not all situations where ABS could make a difference are avoidable but I continue to hone my skills (mostly alertness and situational awareness) to keep me away form needing any assistance. Sh%t happens and if it makes you feel better to have ABS then you should have ABS I just like the idea that everything depends on my skill and if I make it home safe and sound then I know I did it right. I believe ABS is great and I will someday have a bike with traction control, auto clutch assist, wheelie control and ABS but for today I will continue to rely on my skills to control the bike. Again if you need or want these aids then get them, anything that gets more people involved in our sport is great and making bikes safer is always better but its just not for me YET.