Turbo install

[garth285]

Originally Posted by Bigballsofpaint

Methanol injection! (cheaper and more readily avail than the NOS)

Well I have plenty of places to get nitrous around town here, plus I have all the parts already for a nitrous system I believe, I can even make it work when ever it hits a certain PSI as well.

with meth I have to find a small enough water/meth pump, most of them are huge or ungodly expensive.

The other thing I can do is run straight methanol as fuel? lol

I was thinking getting like a .014 nitrous jet which is 6hp and seeing what it will do. I wish I had an accurate way to measure intake temps with my data logger but havnt found a good way to measure just yet.

[Racer x]

That is my plan. But not a little nitrous. I want to use the nitrous to cool the charge and spool the turbo at 5000 feet.( Bonneville Utah). The low boost, high compresson and nitrous with 115 octane fuel should make 80-100 hp. Thats with the proper mods to the engine. Like a clutch and Pistons rods and head work.

[Racer x]

Wizard of nitrous has the best stuff. It's not cheap. But less than an engine. The U.S. stuff has problems.

[garth285]

@Racer x - Are we upping the HP goals to 100hp now!!!!!! LETS DO IT! lol

I am a big fan of dry nitrous kits, I have been running them for years, when dynojet came out with their hub so you can switch maps that was the best thing since shaved (Eh hmmm) but with the ECU's that we have now, I can wire in a relay to ground a ECU pin and switch to a second map with a completly different tune on it. I can do that now with the ninja 300 ECU so that might be something I'd consider!

I'd like to make 75hp with no nitrous but we'll see how that goes, whats a measly little 25 shot to make it an even 100hp lol

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by Bigballsofpaint

Methanol injection! (cheaper and more readily avail than the NOS)

I love water injection for boosted applications for safety, and methanol injection for power. My WRX loves the WI boost map.

[250rr]

I am only understanding half of what you all are saying. I'm enjoying it all immensely, however.

[Racer x]

Dry or wet you have to add enough fuel to make the mix right. Without turning this into a nitrous thread, don't use NOS solenoids. They freeze and stick. Then you loose control of the nitrous and lean out. Wizard used pulsoids and they are so reliable they are used in rocket engines.
100 hp will be a pipe dream or oil slick. But some clutch work will be needed before you get there.

[Somchai]

@swarfman64 - maybe you take this as an idea only, but I'm pretty sure with your know-how and also machine park you'll be able to produce this: For the intake manifold I would replace the rubber holder with one from aluminum.

[swarfman64]

Originally Posted by Somchai

@swarfman64 - maybe you take this as an idea only, but I'm pretty sure with your know-how and also machine park you'll be able to produce this: For the intake manifold I would replace the rubber holder with one from aluminum.

Which rubber holder do you mean?
At present I use the factory head to throttle body rubber, two 50mm TB to plenum and a 45mm to the turbo pipe. My next set up I was planing an intercooler and larger Aluminium plenum to help with the pulsing.

[garth285]

You should build the next setup to look like this lol

[swarfman64]

Dare me? Just for interest sake, I had been gathering bits for my turbo set up for a year and a half and then.........................I found Turbo250.com. That was the "Its time to get this happening" moment. If I hadn't have found your page I'd be dong different projects.
I can't wait to get a good street 10psi sorted so I can play with bigger boost levels.
Dare me ......please.

[garth285]

First of all..... you dont have the balls to build something like that so I'd like to see you go ahead and try! I'm tired of seeing your pathetic attempt to turbo your piss poor ninja 250. so go ahead do it.... DO IT!!!!!!!

hahaha..... well thanks for the compliment I guess lol.....

Know what I wanted to do was actually build a twin turbo setup, stick the turbo out of the fairings on each side so it looks like you have rocket engines on both sides lol....

The sky is the limit to what were capable of!!!!

[swarfman64]

Once the OCD kicks in nothing can stop me!
I'd love to say "challenge accepted" but I can't play big boost without big tools. Dyno build next THEN we see where it takes us. As Somchai correctly posted a while ago...Low compression high boost is where the HP is.

[garth285]

Sounds good to me!!!! I want high compression high boost :-) lol... well see how far that works out for me!

[Somchai]

Originally Posted by swarfman64

Which rubber holder do you mean?
At present I use the factory head to throttle body rubber, two 50mm TB to plenum and a 45mm to the turbo pipe. My next set up I was planing an intercooler and larger Aluminium plenum to help with the pulsing.

I talk about those rubbers between the head and the tb's.

And just as a simple info, a cr of 6.7:1 was just enough to build the strongest engine the Formula 1 has ever seen, not to say that the boost was possible up to 3.5 bar. The BMW own dyno broke with this engine running and the dyno run then was made at Alpina.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[swarfman64]

For this build I'll leave the std rubber joiners, for simplicity. I believe that around 6.5:1 is a good place to be for high boost, that's what I'd like to do but clearly money will play a roll. To decompress that much to run high boost means GOOD pistons with enough material to shape and quality rods. Also intercooling of some kind. 75hp is nearly 5hp/cui. going beyond that is big dollar stuff. How my second build goes will be dictated by cash, time and my machining ability.
Thanks to everybody for there input. It's nice to see some interest in these engine projects.

[Racer x]

What ever you do be carful with the length. The distance from valve to throttle body is not just an arbitrary measurement. I have aluminum manifolds to hold my nitrous nozzles. They ended up being way to long for high RPM. Mad the carbs did not fit well. The FI system I have usees very short manifolds.

[swarfman64]

I'm a bit board waiting for pistons, so I've made up a piston height dial(for finding tdc and a degree wheel adapter. The Deg wheel slides on to the shoulder and a pin and circlip lock it in place. It just goes in the LH cover hole and engages on the 14mm crank bolt.IMG_4207.jpg
Also made up some offset spacers and drilled oversize the intake cam gear. This should put the timing of the intake cam back to std. I can change spacers up to 6 deg (if I need more I can go for bigger diameter spacers)to suit what I need once I degree it in. I'm looking for some cam specs for a 98 engine if someone has them. Proper specs like deg @1mm.

[fast1075]

I REALLY like the offset bushing idea for the cams if you have enough selection. It is difficult to keep the sprockets in place on a two bolt sprocket if they are slotted.

Back in the day, we used to spot weld the sprockets in place after setting the cam timing on the engines to keep everything in place on J model and GS1150 race engines.

I am more concerned with using a dial gauge as a TDC finder. Have you considered the dwell at TDC?. It's small, but huge when setting up cams.

You need a hard stop to find before and after TDC, and adjust the degree wheel to suit.

The easy-on degree wheel holder seems like a great idea at first glance. If it has ANY lateral or torsional slop, repeatability go out the window. as does the discrimination. Speaking of discrimination, you need the largest diameter degree wheel you can find for the greatest accuracy.

And I am sure I saw lobe center numbers somewhere for the cams, but damn if I remember where.

[swarfman64]

I use the dial to find a location btdc and atdc , eg: 2mm then split the deg to find tdc. pretty standard, same as hard stop method. The degree wheel adapter is quite snug, there is only about 3 deg play in the socket but that is irrelevant as all measurements are done in one direction. I spent some years recording and dialling in cams and I wouldn't do it if I didn't trust my results 100%. The offset bushings are fool proof, probably a little more time consuming than slotted ones but I don't have to worry about unwanted movement. With a 10mm hole in the sprocket there's about 6 deg (crank deg) of adjustment each way. Should be plenty for what I'm trying to achieve. Keep thinking of those cam specs, I've only got some basic figures at this stage.

[Racer x]

This the the thread I did on cam timing. No data on numbers just what I was told to set things at.

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=167264

Main idea was to mke up the tools

[Alex]

Great thread so far.

[swarfman64]

IMG_4240.jpgNow to find the time to get this thing back together

[swarfman64]

I made time.IMG_4251.jpg
It's 11.40 pm here and she goes again. New pistons rings and gaskets. Ported head,2mm barrel spacer, altered cam timing
IMG_4250.jpg
IMG_4252.jpgIMG_4249.jpg
Wound up with the exhaust cam 6 deg advanced and the intake cam in factory position. LSA increase by 3 deg and overlap 6 deg less. I'll post an xl file when I get time, although the numbers don't mean much without knowing the correct lift to measure at.(I did record at 0.1,0.5 and 1mm (0.050" is not likely for a Jap bike)). The main point being to give a reference to the changes I make. Some running in time first, then back to tuning.

[swarfman64]

Had it running and warmed up then another drama, I loaded a new timing file onto the ecu and now it won't read the MAP sensor correctly, The map itself is ok and the voltages at the ecu are correct. Now to see how long it takes for Ecotrons support this time.

[swarfman64]

It's been a while..........I've been waiting for a solution to my software problem and have yet to see the fix. What I do know tho is the display problem is just that, my sensors are good and the ecu is reading them correctly but the on screen display is incorrect. I can at least have a little play with the tune as I don't need the display at this stage. So, I've clocked up some quiet miles and done some tune changes. At this stage I have a blended alpha n and ve map mostly changing at 10% except under 3000rpm which its at 25%. I've added some more timing now its decompressed and leaned my desired lambda across the board. With the new cam timing it boosts much lower in rpm and pulls from 4000rpm, I'm really happy with the torque and the engine feels like its in a safe zone unlike before. Decompressing I believe was the ticket. I did a couple of harder runs (remembering it not run in yet) and it feels great.
I wont do a lot more now until the dyno is built, just minor "safe" tuning, and run it in.
IMG_4333.jpg
Might try and fit this too

[garth285]

What timing numbers have you gone with if you dont mind sharing?

My project has been on the back burner for a little but I'm almost motivated to pick up the wrench again sometime soon.

[swarfman64]

This is a chart of cam info. I do not have factory spesc and don't know the correct height at the valve to make the measurements. The Left group of figures is my actual measurements taken from my bike, the right side is calculated standard timing without the decompressing spacer. ninja cam specs measured.xlsx
Basicly after decompressing and lifting the barrel the intake and exhaust cam timing is advanced. So I left the exhaust advanced and just corrected the inlet back to standard. Advancing the exhaust and opening the LSA are both good things (in general) for turbocharging. The engine seems so much happier to be boosted and I'm running leaner with more timing. I'll add more boost later, no problems.

[swarfman64]

Oh and this is the ignition timing so far
RAM_MAP_Iga_N_Ld.csv
I'm using 91 RON fuel, basic unleaded for 10psi boost.
And man does it chew through it! I imagine the e85 disappears in a flash.

[swarfman64]

RAM_MAP_Iga_N_Ld.xlsx sorry, wrong file type before.

[Racer x]

Haha I have been telling people for years that. I don't know why but the 250 ninja engine has two thinge it does better than all others. One is make noise. It is surprisingly loud. Two is its ability to drink fuel. I can burn 1/2 a gallon of race gas warmup and run full throttle for a mile. Then ride at ten mph for the mile ride back to the start. That is less than ten mpg.

[swarfman64]

Apart from the fuel cost I guess it's good to have the ability to be able to cool the charge with fuel and get away with it

[swarfman64]

I hacked together a video of the bike today, check it out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sOP...ature=youtu.be

[garth285]

Looking good!

I finally went out to the garage yesterday - I tried the stock 175cc injectors but have always had problems with them, bike would not respond to crazy fuel changes so now I'm going to put the UK 250FI injectors in the bike and see what happens when they come in....

Until then I'm going to slap my ninja 250 wheels on my buddys CRF450R and supermoto it around town lol

[swarfman64]

Damn, I thought you were making progress. Maybe try unleaded and see how it goes. What do the uk injectors flow?

[garth285]

The ninja 300's flow 175cc the ninja 250 UK's share the same injector as the 07+ ZX-6r's which are 200cc a min. I have not given up just yet but I'm just waiting on some injectors to show up to try out.

I think one of mine is sticking though, one cylinder is getting hotter then the other and I cant richen up the air fuel at all :-(

[swarfman64]

I've been busy again
IMG_4436.jpg
I almost gave up on the intercooler because it just wouldn't fit and I couldn't find anything suitable. So I cut 'n shut a new cooler. I still not sure if its going to fit as well as I hope but the idea is to have it in an opening pretty flush with the RH lower fairing.

[swarfman64]

Its been a crazy few weeks so the cooler is taking some time, I have it mounted and the fairing cut but no plumbing yet. Its not as tucked in as I wanted but there is just no room, the piece cut out will go back on the cooler which creates a rear facing cowl and helps the bodyline. It all juts out at the front but it will have to do. The bottom tank is JB welded to the core tubes, Ill show more on the blog when I get a minute.

[sharky nrk]

I like it, great job and keep it up.

[garth285]

Looks like a RC51 or VRF radiator now! lol.... looking great!

I'm on the fence about scrapping my 250 project have some crazy work changes going on as well as possibly buying a house so I might not have the time to mess with this any longer.....