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Old October 4th, 2016, 03:35 PM   #1
Wanderer
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Tried to adjust the clutch. Now the bike dies as soon as I start to release clutch!

I took a 50 mile ride this morning on my bike and all was well. I noticed that the clutch seemed to be releasing a little late for my tastes. I had replaced the clutch cable a week or so ago. No problems going into gear or jumping when releasing the clutch.

When I got home, I adjusted the clutch slack on the clutch lever on the handle bars. Not any better. I then adjusted the cable down at the clutch arm on the engine.

After that, the bike now immediately dies as soon as I start to release the clutch! It is as if I flipped the kill switch! I can start the bike with the clutch pulled in with no problem, but as soon as I start to release the clutch even a fraction of an inch, the engine dies.

No problem with idle or reving the engine with the clutch pulled in or in neutral.

What did I do wrong!?!
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Old October 4th, 2016, 03:46 PM   #2
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Boy am I about to look stupid!!!

I had the kickstand down when I tried to release the clutch!

I'm not at the bike right now, was that the issue?


Duh!!!
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Old October 4th, 2016, 03:50 PM   #3
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Boy am I about to look stupid!!!

I had the kickstand down when I tried to release the clutch!

I'm not at the bike right now, was that the issue?


Duh!!!
Yup. As soon as you put it in gear with the kickstand down it will die. Or as soon as the clutch is released and the switch is activated.
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Old October 4th, 2016, 03:53 PM   #4
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Yup. As soon as you put it in gear with the kickstand down it will die. Or as soon as the clutch is released and the switch is activated.
I HATE all of that "safety" crap to protect fools like me!

Boy do I look dumb.

Now to figure out how to adjust the clutch lever release point...
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Old October 4th, 2016, 03:56 PM   #5
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By the way, with the kick stand down, the bike starts with the clutch pulled in and goes into gear without dying, but the when the clutch lever microswitch opens (clutch barely released), it kills the bike.

Stupid...me I mean...
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Old October 4th, 2016, 03:58 PM   #6
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By the way, with the kick stand down, the bike starts with the clutch pulled in and goes into gear without dying, but the when the clutch lever microswitch opens (clutch barely released), it kills the bike.

Stupid...me I mean...
Does your neutral light work? It should die with the kickstand down as soon as you put it in gear..............
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Old October 4th, 2016, 04:01 PM   #7
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Does your neutral light work? It should die with the kickstand down as soon as you put it in gear..............
Yes, the neutral light works. I started the bike in neutral and also in gear with the clutch pulled in.

It then died as the microswitch on the clutch lever opened.
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Old October 4th, 2016, 04:22 PM   #8
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Yes, the neutral light works. I started the bike in neutral and also in gear with the clutch pulled in.

It then died as the microswitch on the clutch lever opened.
Weird. But, you found the issue! It's working as designed. You can bypass the kickstand by unplugging it and jumpering the connection on the main harness.

However, it's there for a reason, as you just found out, to keep you "safe".
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Old October 4th, 2016, 04:24 PM   #9
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Weird. But, you found the issue! It's working as designed. You can bypass the kickstand by unplugging it and jumpering the connection on the main harness.

However, it's there for a reason, as you just found out, to keep you "safe".
Yeah, idiot switches everywhere on this bike. Probably needed.
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Old October 4th, 2016, 04:27 PM   #10
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In gear with the kickstand down, yeah, that switch got me one night, too. I was tripping out on why it wouldn't go! Then I realized what I did.
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Old October 4th, 2016, 04:32 PM   #11
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In gear with the kickstand down, yeah, that switch got me one night, too. I was tripping out on why it wouldn't go! Then I realized what I did.
I'm glad I wasn't away from home when I did it!

I would have been too damn dumb to realize my mistake I don't think.

I won't forget it again.
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Old October 4th, 2016, 04:33 PM   #12
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I was away from home when I had my moment of "d'oh" but I did figure it out relatively quickly. Good thing, huh?

Glad you figured it out so now you know. Also, it's good that the safety switch works!
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Old October 5th, 2016, 06:49 AM   #13
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It should die with the kickstand down as soon as you put it in gear..............
No, the igniter can ground through any of the three safety switches - neutral, clutch, or sidestand. If the clutch is pulled, it will work, regardless of the other switches' positions.

On the NewGen, the clutch switch is connected to the sidestand switch rather than directly to ground (as found on the PreGen and 500). For the NewGen clutch switch to work, the stand has to be up also. I assume this is a tweak to prevent you from just holding the clutch to start it while it's in gear and you're not on the bike. Letting go of the clutch after that would kill it, but it might lurch forward, possibly right off the sidestand.
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Old October 5th, 2016, 07:04 AM   #14
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No, the igniter can ground through any of the three safety switches - neutral, clutch, or sidestand. If the clutch is pulled, it will work, regardless of the other switches' positions.

On the NewGen, the clutch switch is connected to the sidestand switch rather than directly to ground (as found on the PreGen and 500). For the NewGen clutch switch to work, the stand has to be up also. I assume this is a tweak to prevent you from just holding the clutch to start it while it's in gear and you're not on the bike. Letting go of the clutch after that would kill it, but it might lurch forward, possibly right off the sidestand.
He has a pregen? 2007.......

I have video of my wife's pregen dying as soon as it's put in gear with the stand down. I was behind her at the gas station and she couldn't figure out why it was dying. I'll admit I was laughing a bit.
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Old October 5th, 2016, 07:07 AM   #15
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The 1:30 mark is where the fun begins.

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old October 5th, 2016, 12:01 PM   #16
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I have video of my wife's pregen dying as soon as it's put in gear with the stand down.
Then there's either something wrong with the bike, or its wiring doesn't match the PreGen diagram. It should die as soon as you release the clutch and try to ride (since the neutral and stand switches are both already "unsafe" and you're changing the clutch switch to "unsafe"), not as soon as it's put into gear.

The clutch switch is dual-throw. The black/yellow wire (yellow/green in the main harness) connects to the junction box. When the lever is released, it bridges to the black/red (green) wire going to the neutral switch. When the lever is pulled, it bridges to the black (black/yellow) wire running directly to ground inside the left control. Any time the lever is pulled, it should ground the safety switch circuit, allowing both the starter circuit and the igniter to work.

On the NewGen, the switch is wired up as single-throw (the neutral switch circuit no longer runs through the clutch switch). When the lever is pulled, the bridged connection goes down the green/white wire to the sidestand switch. For that circuit to ground, the lever has to be pulled plus the stand has to be up.
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Old October 5th, 2016, 01:59 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by InvisiBill View Post
Then there's either something wrong with the bike, or its wiring doesn't match the PreGen diagram. It should die as soon as you release the clutch and try to ride (since the neutral and stand switches are both already "unsafe" and you're changing the clutch switch to "unsafe"), not as soon as it's put into gear.

The clutch switch is dual-throw. The black/yellow wire (yellow/green in the main harness) (No, it stays this color throughout (black yellow is main harness ground). Yellow Green wire is the starter circuit wire that goes from the starter relay to the clutch switch. connects to the junction box. When the lever is released, it bridges to the black/red (green) No. Black/red wire is sidestand circuit. This provides an alternate path to ground for the ignitor. Green/black is ignitor ground. Neutral switch wire is light green. They are separate circuits connected in parallel via diodes on the green/black ignitor ground wire. wire going to the neutral switch. When the lever is pulled, it bridges to the black (black/yellow) wire running directly to ground inside the left control. Any time the lever is pulled, it should ground the safety switch circuit, allowing both the starter circuit and the igniter to work. No, this changes the ground path for the starter relay coil between the neutral switch path to ground (light green wire) and the main harness black/yellow wire. Yellow/Green is the common wire in the diagram.

On the NewGen, the switch is wired up as single-throw (the neutral switch circuit no longer runs through the clutch switch). When the lever is pulled, the bridged connection goes down the green/white wire to the sidestand switch. For that circuit to ground, the lever has to be pulled plus the stand has to be up.
Clutch Switch wires and connections in the switch:




Have a look at this again: http://faq.ninja250.org/images/a/a4/...matic_-_R4.pdf


The neutral wire does go through the clutch switch but not in the way you describe it here. Every manual I've seen shows it as such. You're mixing up the color of wires and what they do.

Interesting note: According to the diagrams, you shouldn't be able to operate the starter with the clutch in, sidestand down and in gear. Haven't tested this though.
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Old October 5th, 2016, 04:42 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by RacinNinja View Post
Clutch Switch wires and connections in the switch:




Have a look at this again: http://faq.ninja250.org/images/a/a4/...matic_-_R4.pdf


The neutral wire does go through the clutch switch but not in the way you describe it here. Every manual I've seen shows it as such. You're mixing up the color of wires and what they do.

Interesting note: According to the diagrams, you shouldn't be able to operate the starter with the clutch in, sidestand down and in gear. Haven't tested this though.
The colors I listed first are the short wires in the left control's harness, right where they plug into the clutch switch. I got them from Wiring_Schematic_-_R4.pdf, but I can't personally verify they're correct. The second set of colors I listed are the main harness colors, and match up with what you said. Ignoring the few inches of different colored wire, just go with yellow/green, light green, and black/yellow respectively, which is exactly what your explanation and table show.



One thing to keep in mind is that the igniter and starter circuit relay access the safety switches differently. The green/black from the igniter runs through the diodes to the green/white (sidestand), green (neutral), and yellow/green (clutch). If any one (or more) of those is "safe" and complete to ground, the igniter will work and allow the bike to run.

So you're sitting on the running bike, ready to take off, but you left the sidestand down. It's in neutral, so the neutral switch is closed and the igniter works. You pull the clutch and put it in gear. The neutral switch is now open, but the clutch switch (to ground) is closed, so the igniter still works. As you release the clutch lever, the clutch switch opens and the igniter no longer works, killing the engine. Once you have the sidestand up, its switch closes to ground and the igniter keeps working, allowing you to do whatever you want with the clutch lever and gear shifter (which is really handy when you're riding).


However, the starter circuit relay is tied directly into the yellow/green wire after the diode. The clutch switch is the only thing that can ground it and allow the starter to work. When you pull the clutch lever, the switch bridges to the black/yellow ground wire and completes the circuit directly. Regardless of the position of the other two switches, the bike will start and run. If you release the clutch lever, the switch bridges to a fork of the green wire from the neutral switch. If you have the clutch released, the bike needs to be in neutral to complete the circuit to ground and start. You need either clutch or neutral for the starter to work (and it's complicated somewhat by the neutral wire passing through the clutch switch).

If you unplug the 3-pin connector from the clutch switch, the starter button will be completely dead, because the relay can't ground due to the "broken" yellow/green wire. If you remove the green wire from the clutch switch (should be black/red right at the connector according to the PDF), the bike won't start in neutral (the neutral light will still be on even) with the clutch released. The starter circuit doesn't touch the sidestand switch at all.


The NewGen is wired differently. They ran the green neutral wire through Diode A into the yellow/green wire without going through the clutch switch. It looks like they kept the dual-throw switch, but nothing is hooked up to the "neutral switch" contact, so it acts like a single-throw. They've replaced the black/yellow direct ground with a fork of the green/white to the sidestand switch. On the NewGen, the "it'll start and run as long as the clutch is pulled" line only applies if the sidestand is also up.

The old setup kept the bike from running if you left the sidestand down, but there might have been a bit of movement, depending on exactly when the clutch switch opened and when the clutch engaged. That's the only reason I can think of for having the clutch switch tie into the sidestand rather than using a direct ground - you need to have the sidestand up (implying that you're on the bike) in order for holding the clutch to work, meaning it's not a big deal if the bike jerks an inch before dying. That little jerk might be enough to knock it off the sidestand if you weren't on the bike.
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Old October 5th, 2016, 04:53 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by InvisiBill View Post
The colors I listed first are the short wires in the left control's harness, right where they plug into the clutch switch. I got them from Wiring_Schematic_-_R4.pdf, but I can't personally verify they're correct. The second set of colors I listed are the main harness colors, and match up with what you said. Ignoring the few inches of different colored wire, just go with yellow/green, light green, and black/yellow respectively, which is exactly what your explanation and table show.



One thing to keep in mind is that the igniter and starter circuit relay access the safety switches differently. The green/black from the igniter runs through the diodes to the green/white (sidestand), green (neutral), and yellow/green (clutch). If any one (or more) of those is "safe" and complete to ground, the igniter will work and allow the bike to run.

So you're sitting on the running bike, ready to take off, but you left the sidestand down. It's in neutral, so the neutral switch is closed and the igniter works. You pull the clutch and put it in gear. The neutral switch is now open, but the clutch switch (to ground) is closed, so the igniter still works. As you release the clutch lever, the clutch switch opens and the igniter no longer works, killing the engine. Once you have the sidestand up, its switch closes to ground and the igniter keeps working, allowing you to do whatever you want with the clutch lever and gear shifter (which is really handy when you're riding).


However, the starter circuit relay is tied directly into the yellow/green wire after the diode. The clutch switch is the only thing that can ground it and allow the starter to work. When you pull the clutch lever, the switch bridges to the black/yellow ground wire and completes the circuit directly. Regardless of the position of the other two switches, the bike will start and run. If you release the clutch lever, the switch bridges to a fork of the green wire from the neutral switch. If you have the clutch released, the bike needs to be in neutral to complete the circuit to ground and start. You need either clutch or neutral for the starter to work (and it's complicated somewhat by the neutral wire passing through the clutch switch).

If you unplug the 3-pin connector from the clutch switch, the starter button will be completely dead, because the relay can't ground due to the "broken" yellow/green wire. If you remove the green wire from the clutch switch (should be black/red right at the connector according to the PDF), the bike won't start in neutral (the neutral light will still be on even) with the clutch released. The starter circuit doesn't touch the sidestand switch at all.


The NewGen is wired differently. They ran the green neutral wire through Diode A into the yellow/green wire without going through the clutch switch. It looks like they kept the dual-throw switch, but nothing is hooked up to the "neutral switch" contact, so it acts like a single-throw. They've replaced the black/yellow direct ground with a fork of the green/white to the sidestand switch. On the NewGen, the "it'll start and run as long as the clutch is pulled" line only applies if the sidestand is also up.

The old setup kept the bike from running if you left the sidestand down, but there might have been a bit of movement, depending on exactly when the clutch switch opened and when the clutch engaged. That's the only reason I can think of for having the clutch switch tie into the sidestand rather than using a direct ground - you need to have the sidestand up (implying that you're on the bike) in order for holding the clutch to work, meaning it's not a big deal if the bike jerks an inch before dying. That little jerk might be enough to knock it off the sidestand if you weren't on the bike.
Nope. Read the diagram again. The whole thing and see where the Netral switch wire ties into the Clutch switch.

When you pull in the clutch switch, you're disconnecting the ignitor path straight to Black/yellow ground and connecting the Starter Relay coil AND the ignitor to the neutral ground through the neutral switch. That's where you're getting mixed up! They become one path....

As soon as the path to the neutral switch ground gets broken, IE, putting it in gear, you lose the ignitor path to ground and it dies.

Clutch IN, Neutral light goes out, no path to ground. Sidestand down, no path to ground.

Please stop mentioning the NewGen, lol. I know it's wired differently and it's not applicable to the OPs situation.
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Old October 7th, 2016, 08:17 AM   #20
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Nope. Read the diagram again. The whole thing and see where the Netral switch wire ties into the Clutch switch.
Here's a copy of the (ginormous) PDF wiring diagram chopped down to just the safety switch circuits. http://www.invisibill.net/ninja/250/safetyswitches.png

Starting at power and working toward ground for the starter circuit:
  • Power from the starter button comes in on black/red and into the relay coil.
  • Power leaves the relay coil. In the diagram it's yellow/green, but it's still just a trace on the j-box PCB at this point.
  • It joins the main yellow/green at the T by the diode.
  • The diode prevents it from going toward the green/black, so it can only go out the j-box to the actual yellow/green wire in the harness.
  • The yellow/green wire connects to the common contact of the dual-throw clutch switch.
    • If the clutch lever is pulled ("safe"), the switch bridges to the black/yellow ground wire and completes the circuit.
    • If the clutch lever is released ("unsafe"), the switch bridges to the green wire to the neutral switch.
      • If the transmission is in neutral ("safe"), the neutral switch closes to ground and the circuit completes.
      • If the transmission is in gear ("unsafe"), the neutral switch remains open and the circuit is incomplete, and the starter won't work.

The yellow/green wire is the only way the starter relay can ground and function. The yellow/green can be grounded either by the clutch switch bridging to the standard black/yellow ground wire in the left control (lever pulled, switch plunger extended) or by passing through (lever released, switch plunger depressed) to the green wire for the neutral switch, which also must be in neutral to complete to ground. If you unplug the 3-pin connector at the clutch switch, the yellow/green wire is "broken" and the starter button will always be dead.

http://www.invisibill.net/ninja/250/...es_starter.png is a copy of the diagram with the igniter stuff removed, showing only the starter relay stuff.


The igniter's green/black wire can ground three different ways. Through the diodes, it is connected directly to the yellow/green to the clutch switch, the green wire to the neutral switch, and the green/white wire to the sidestand switch.

Grounding of the yellow/green wire was explained above. Any time the starter relay has ground, the igniter inherently does also, since it's connected to the same yellow/green wire at the T in the j-box.

There is also a green wire running directly to the neutral switch. The starter circuit can only see neutral through the clutch switch, but the igniter has a direct connection to the neutral switch. The igniter will function any time the trans is in neutral, regardless of the other safety switches' positions. If the neutral switch is closed, the green wire is grounded, therefore the green/black wire is grounded.

The green/white wire goes to the sidestand switch. When the sidestand is up, the switch bridges to the black/yellow ground wire, and the circuit is grounded. The igniter will function any time the sidestand is up, regardless of the other safety switches' positions. This is what allows the bike to keep running while you're using the clutch and shifter to ride.

For completeness, http://www.invisibill.net/ninja/250/...es_igniter.png is a copy of just the igniter stuff. It's identical to the first one with the starter relay removed, as it technically uses all the circuits. However, its direct connection to the neutral switch makes the fork of the green wire running to the clutch switch redundant.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RacinNinja View Post
When you pull in the clutch switch, you're disconnecting the ignitor path straight to Black/yellow ground and connecting the Starter Relay coil AND the ignitor to the neutral ground through the neutral switch. That's where you're getting mixed up! They become one path....

As soon as the path to the neutral switch ground gets broken, IE, putting it in gear, you lose the ignitor path to ground and it dies.

Clutch IN, Neutral light goes out, no path to ground. Sidestand down, no path to ground.
Releasing the clutch lever (pushing the switch's plunger in) disconnects black/yellow and bridges to the neutral switch. If the clutch lever is released, then it has to check if it's in neutral to be considered "safe".

As long as you have the clutch pulled when you shift into gear, you still have ground via the clutch switch bridging to black/yellow. The neutral switch opens and you lose ground on the green wire, but you still have ground on the yellow/green, from the black/yellow. Clutch lever pulled = direct path to ground.

You can sit there in gear with the stand down and the bike will start and run all day, as long as you're holding the clutch. As you release the clutch to start riding, the clutch switch opens and the bike dies, just as the OP experienced.
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Motorcycle Safety Foundation

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