urgent technical question

[micoulisninja]

does the 2008-2012 ninja 250 cylinder block have nicasil coating ??
please answer a.s.a.p.

[Racer x]

No

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by Racer x

No

thank you Eric !! is that for sure ?? (I'm not doubting you but some mechanics here in Greece say that it has some sort of hardening coating that requires special tools for rectyfying, which are not available in Greece)... it has simple iron shirts, like in old scooters etc ??

[Racer x]

Every one I have used has been iron cylinder. I hone the cylinder between piston sets. And have bored them out for the 265cc pistons. Are you boring to 282?

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by Racer x

Every one I have used has been iron cylinder. I hone the cylinder between piston sets. And have bored them out for the 265cc pistons. Are you boring to 282?

yeap !! gonna switch to larger sleeves cause the machanics here say the oem ones won't stand the pressure if honed that much... what do you think ???

[Racer x]

Absolutely that is why I asked. Going from 62mm to 64mm is 1mm of material to make a 2mm bore increase. You are going 6mm and that will leave little metal for thermal expansion. You can call JE and talk to them about there 66mm pistons. And what is recommend

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by Racer x

Absolutely that is why I asked. Going from 62mm to 64mm is 1mm of material to make a 2mm bore increase. You are going 6mm and that will leave little metal for thermal expansion. You can call JE and talk to them about there 66mm pistons. And what is recommend

Ι am going to 66mm, that is 4mm of honing, 2mm of material taken off...JE says resleeving is necessary for that bore...

what hp increase did you see from the 64mm pistons (without the nitrous) ???

[Racer x]

I read that +6 from the JE web page . It must be a misprint. That is the problem with the Internet. You get advice from people that can't do simple math.
Anyhow, JE recommends sleeve for there 66mm pistons.

The HP increase is not really peak numbers but a MUCH wider power band. I was over 30 hp from 7000 rpm on. It roped out at 34 hp . But I was just breaking in the motor and did not try to push it.

[Somchai]

Nick, I would like to ask you a question and if it's possible then it would help you in your project also?
What you need, especially with more cc is more fresh gas on the suction side.
So could you take a look if it's possible to drill the throttle body up to 30 mm and put a bigger throttle (30mm) inside?
From the pictures I think it should be possible, but a picture is not the original.
If you know it would you please be so kind and post your answer? Thank you.

[Racer x]

Increasing throttle body diameter will not be needed for street use. The smaller throttle body will keep the air moving at higher velocity. That packs in more air at lower rpm. Boring out or changing throttle body's will reduce torque. Perhaps 30 from 28 might be Ok but I would be careful with that can of worms.

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by Somchai

Nick, I would like to ask you a question and if it's possible then it would help you in your project also?
What you need, especially with more cc is more fresh gas on the suction side.
So could you take a look if it's possible to drill the throttle body up to 30 mm and put a bigger throttle (30mm) inside?
From the pictures I think it should be possible, but a picture is not the original.
If you know it would you please be so kind and post your answer? Thank you.

well, I went through the process of studying that case thoroughly and ended up with the conclusion that the oem throttle bodies CAN BE theoretically honed to 30mm BUT that process is not possible by Greece's rectifying means and methods and it would still be highly improbable that the manufactured or fitted 30mm butterfly would seal properly for normal idle speed....I also tried fitting pairs from bigger bikes such as the Honda cbf-600 (32mm) which split in two pairs but the distances between each body is larger than in ours and would give an off-center airflow which would probably lead to more loss than gains, especially in low rpm and half-throttle speeds...so I dropped it in disappointment....and then I heard rumors that next year (it was February then) a 300 version with 32mm T.B. would be launched so I just waited impatiently...the same "rumor" (chief engineer in Kawasaki Greece) told me that they would fit in every way (throttle cable, tps, bonding diameters, air trumpets etc...) so I'll just wait a little longer for a "plug and play" oem solution which will definetely improve performance...especially on an already modified engine...just what I need for my project and believe will work on any 250...
t.b. and injectors are far more "programmable" and compatible than carbs, permitting large diameters to have better overall performance even at low rpm... I'll give you a couple of examples... it is a common modification for the Z 1000 to install ZX-10 46mm t.b. (oem's 40mm) and the bike runs perfectly without any other mods (given that you program a PC III or V for the right AFR...)and improves the torque curve all way from 2000-12000 rpm... 2010 Honda crf 250 oem T.b. is a50mm giant...imagine a 50mm carb for a single cylinder 250... quite a joke, ain't it ?? well, needless to say anything for the crf 250's performance...injectors can work around high inertia pathways without messing the flow and that is why they have won over the carbs on high performance engines and are even better when managining half-throttle conditions at least as far as economy-wise parameters are of any concern...

[Racer x]

I was thinking carbs. Yes you can use a bigger Throttle body with fI. But still 32 mm for the street is enough for a 282cc engine.

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by Racer x

I was thinking carbs. Yes you can use a bigger Throttle body with fI. But still 32 mm for the street is enough for a 282cc engine.

I totally agree with you Eric !! but still you haven't told me what hp improvement you've seen without the juice from the 64mm pistons...

[Racer x]

I don't know for sure. It seems like much better midrange power. But I have 12.5 to one pistons and did not push the new engine on the dyno. But it did make 34 tops and over 30 at 7000 rpm. Before with 250cc and 13 to1 it was like 32-33 and went above 30 some whare above 9000. The bike picked up at least 250rpm when I ran it in April.

[micoulisninja]

well the thing is we were all mistaken (or misinformed) after all... the 2008-2012 cylinder block is an aluminium deck stuffed with nikasil coated and hardened iron sleeves !!! so in Greece that could definetely NOT be rectified... so my choice of bigger pistonw and other sleeves turn out as being the best solution for both performance and and easy maintenance features... just started processing by taking out the oem sleeves...will be a long road home, baby...

[Racer x]

I am very sorry for being wrong about the sleeves. I have not detected any type of coating in the years I have been working with this engine . I will do some research into this immediately. Thanks for the info.

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by Racer x

I am very sorry for being wrong about the sleeves. I have not detected any type of coating in the years I have been working with this engine . I will do some research into this immediately. Thanks for the info.

never mind that Eric... it would be piece of cake in any case by the means available in the states... but here, it is as if I asked them to make 100hp out of that engine hahahaha
well I guess the older version might be without any coating...

[Racer x]

What's wrong with asking for 100 hp ?

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by Racer x

What's wrong with asking for 100 hp ?

well, nothing wrong with that but it sounds mission impossible to everyone...
when I express some difficult or never-tried-before ideas they look at me in surprise/awe/fear/irony as if I am some alien from planet..."X"...hahahaha
the dialogue goes like this...
- I was thinking of...blah, blah, blah
and the answer goes like...
-"impossible", "out of the question", "never heard of such a mod before" (!!!), "where have you seen such a thing being done ?", "if you want me to, I will do it but I won't take responsibility for any of this...", "are you sure this might work ?", "I won't take that kind of job"...etc...
when I was modifying my zx-12 engine I ended up doing it myself because noone could do it the way I wanted them too... and it did work...stock cc 197ps on the rear wheel, 87mm JE 14:1 pistons, my design, 1317cc and 222,2 ps at the rearwheel... and did everything myself... designed and timed the cam profiles, ported the head, designed the piston, ordered special bolts and nuts for my carillo rods... and many engineers still think that I am merely... nuts...well, there might be a dose of truth to that...

modifying the 250 engine seems like kid's stuff to me but the problem is I don't have either the proper machinery to do what I have in mind, nor the expertise to do the exact, precise kind of work when dealing with figures of ,001 of milimeters....

[lgk]

not totally out of the question

these guys supposedly pull off 2500 hp on a 2.0l
http://ov3rr3vving.blogspot.com/2011...00hp-4g63.html

[Racer x]

People that know tell me I can get ove 100 hp from "a" 250cc four stroke. It may be but getting it from this 250 is another story.

It seems like kids stuff untill you try. Then it is easy to put a man on the moon.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by Racer x

Then it is easy to put a man on the moon.

The tech they used to pull it off is so specialized that its a pretty accurate analogy

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by micoulisninja

.........ported the head, ....for my carillo rods...

What are those?
Could you describe it a little more?

[lgk]

Originally Posted by Motofool

What are those?
Could you describe it a little more?

he is getting stronger parts and making the head flow better.

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by Racer x

People that know tell me I can get ove 100 hp from "a" 250cc four stroke. It may be but getting it from this 250 is another story.

It seems like kids stuff untill you try. Then it is easy to put a man on the moon.

40 hp will do for me... but the thing is we have poor quality rectifying machinery and little experience with such mods combined with moving parts spinning at 14k rpm...
by the way... now that I will be forced to use a SIMPLE IRON sleeve what happens as far as the engine revving ?? will it be slower to rev up ?? the piston I am using is lighter than oem...but I guess friction is higher on simple iron... so what happens ?? and how about the piston rings that are designed for nicasil ? will they work properly or just score and wear off the sleeves ?? will they seal combustion and oil ?? or will the engine twitch oil ?? should I stick to the original clearance between piston and cylinder at .004-007mm or should I keep it at .003 so that after breaking-in it will seal better ?? keep in mind it is intended for performance street use, not drag racing purposes...
please ask people there that have some experience with madness, cause i really can use any available info...

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by lgk

he is getting stronger parts and making the head flow better.

How?

[alex.s]

http://www.cp-carrillo.com/ maybe this?

[lgk]

Originally Posted by Motofool

How?

there are several different process to hog out the intake and smooth the intake tract. i'm not sure which one he's using.

using custom rods and high compression pistons that are much stronger than the originals.

carillo rods
JE pistons
arp fasteners

in other words he's building the bottom end

[Motofool]

Thanks, guys!

[Racer x]

I will see what I can find out. When they bored my cylinder they said it might be a little tight. I can't recall the specific numbers. I will be pulling the engine apart for inspection next week.
I will see what I can find out.

I have the first set of 250 ninja connecting rods Carillo made. And arp studs . That is for next years motor.

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by Racer x

I will see what I can find out. When they bored my cylinder they said it might be a little tight. I can't recall the specific numbers. I will be pulling the engine apart for inspection next week.
I will see what I can find out.

I have the first set of 250 ninja connecting rods Carillo made. And arp studs . That is for next years motor.

once again i am stunned by the lack of basic technical knowledge of our so-called "mechanics"... the sleeves are simple iron after all !!! I have already begun with the rectifying process...sorry Eric, you were right, I was misinformed...

[Racer x]

That is a relief. I was thinking of throwing myself on a sword.

[micoulisninja]

please inform me about the results and findings of inspecting your engine...

[Racer x]

Is there anything in particular you want to know?

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by Racer x

Is there anything in particular you want to know?

yes, I ama especially interested in the condition of the pistons... how scored are they on the skirts and what damage (if any) on top... by the way... what spark plugs do you use cr8, cr9, iridiums or other ??

[Racer x]

I use cr10e from NGK