Lost Front Engine Mount Bolt - Pics of damage inside

[hawker1693]

Thought i'd share my close call. I'm a newb have logged about 900 miles on my used and quite rough ninja.

I'll tell you the story....BTW hindsight is always better!

Anyywayyss, I needed to take a package to the UPS store today which is about 15 miles away so I strapped down the package after much struggle since I didn't have proper straps..meanwhile I got distracted and decided to tighten a bolt which proceeded to break and lead to a whole lot of frustration and me saying the words "how could this day get any worse?"

Well, on my way home from the UPS store it got worse. I wanted to have a little fun on the exit so I leaned into it (probably looking like a total newb, but fun never the less) and something started scraping the ground... "I cant be leaning that far can I!!?!?! wonder if its the center stand..whatever better stand back up a bit" come to a stop and realize my seat is leaning really far forwards and my bike is smoking jumped off and found this:















Yeah...that missing bolt was pretty important lol Shoulda gone over the bike a bit more before trusting it. But I am glad it didn't happen about 5 seconds earlier it could have been much worse.

[Unleashed]

Originally Posted by hawker1693

Thought i'd share my close call. I'm a newb have logged about 900 miles on my used and quite rough ninja.

I'll tell you the story....BTW hindsight is always better!

Anyywayyss, I needed to take a package to the UPS store today which is about 15 miles away so I strapped down the package after much struggle since I didn't have proper straps..meanwhile I got distracted and decided to tighten a bolt which proceeded to break and lead to a whole lot of frustration and me saying the words "how could this day get any worse?"





Yeah...that missing bolt was pretty important lol Shoulda gone over the bike a bit more before trusting it. But I am glad it didn't happen about 5 seconds earlier it could have been much worse.

That sux. Looks like your radiator hose is what kept the bike from doing a lawn chair fold on you. And yeah, thats the same ninja I just finished restoring and started modding, thats a pretty important bolt. So did the engine drop down from the mount or did your frame twist at the neck and did yah manage to get it fixed?

[hawker1693]

Originally Posted by Unleashed

That sux. Looks like your radiator hose is what kept the bike from doing a lawn chair fold on you. And yeah, thats the same ninja I just finished restoring and started modding, thats a pretty important bolt. So did the engine drop down from the mount or did your frame twist at the neck and did yah manage to get it fixed?

Yeah that hose saved the day I'm not sure if the frame is twisted I have to take a look at it today, hoping for the best.
Someone who knew me stopped as well as another biker, and helped me push it back into place and put a temp bolt in so I could push it to my bother in laws house a mile or so down the road.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by hawker1693

Yeah...that missing bolt was pretty important lol Shoulda gone over the bike a bit more before trusting it. But I am glad it didn't happen about 5 seconds earlier it could have been much worse.

In order for the front of the engine to sag like that, one of the rear mounting bolts must be missing. But unfortunately, it more likely means that the two top engine mounts are broken. A skilled welder can put it back.

Also, judging by the way the plastics are not fitting properly, it may also be that your frame is bent somehow. The kickstand also looks strange so there may be a problem in that area as well.

Its best to take care of these problems asap before they snowball into worse problems.

[hawker1693]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

In order for the front of the engine to sag like that, one of the rear mounting bolts must be missing. But unfortunately, it more likely means that the two top engine mounts are broken. A skilled welder can put it back.

Also, judging by the way the plastics are not fitting properly, it may also be that your frame is bent somehow. The kickstand also looks strange so there may be a problem in that area as well.

Its best to take care of these problems asap before they snowball into worse problems.

Did you see this picture?



is this one of the top engine mounts you were talking about?

And yeah the whole thing sagged in the middle so the fairings wouldn't fit right, once we pushed it together and stuck a temp bolt in there so I could push it down the road the fairings returned to their normal positions.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by hawker1693

Did you see this picture?

is this one of the top engine mounts you were talking about?

And yeah the whole thing sagged in the middle so the fairings wouldn't fit right, once we pushed it together and stuck a temp bolt in there so I could push it down the road the fairings returned to their normal positions.

No, that is the front engine mount. There are two more in the rear of the engine - above and below.

The frame should not contort like that - even with a missing engine mount bolt. Is it possible the bike was wrecked before you bought it? I suspect the frame is either bent or there are welds that have broken. If you remove the seat and the side panels, you can get a better look at what might be wrong.

If you know someone else with a Ninja 250 you can compare what the frame and mounts should look like.

Here is what a frame should look like:


And here is what the rear engine mounts look like:


The mounts are shown on the rear. They are horizontal bolt holes that go across the back side of the engine.

[hawker1693]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

No, that is the front engine mount. There are two more in the rear of the engine - above and below.

The frame should not contort like that - even with a missing engine mount bolt. Is it possible the bike was wrecked before you bought it? I suspect the frame is either bent or there are welds that have broken. If you remove the seat and the side panels, you can get a better look at what might be wrong.

If you know someone else with a Ninja 250 you can compare what the frame and mounts should look like.

Here is what a frame should look like:


And here is what the rear engine mounts look like:


The mounts are shown on the rear. They are horizontal bolt holes that go across the back side of the engine.

I see...this is not looking good for the bike Yeah I'm sure its been wrecked the handle bars are bent and slightly out of line.

there is a lot of other dumb crap on the bike where someone fudged it together...like the whole front fairing/light/speedo setup lol

[Unleashed]

Thanx for that added pic ( n4mwd )

Thatll make this easier for me.
The frame of this bike is actually considered a 2 piece as it is dependent on the
engine being in its place for overall load bearing. It supports the weight distribution between the front and rear or ( horizontal load ) in the structure. Without that front bolt the frame basically spread at its weakest point ( the low end of the frame ) Your front and rear wheel actually pushed away from one another. The spot circled in red it where it will have bent. If you want help on an easy way to fix it let me know I can walk you through it. Though it will never be as strong as it was again, the fact that the engine is taking the brunt of the horizontal load it should be fine ( safe ) to do so.

[Unleashed]

Dont give up hope on her yet, They have the potential to be really nice bikes.
Cosmetics are easy as long as the mechanical aspects work the rest comes with time. I took this same bike just 3 weeks ago from the pile of junk in the first pic, and turned it into whats in the second pic in just a weeks time ( The cosmetics only ) for around $50 in supplies.

[hawker1693]

Originally Posted by Unleashed

Dont give up hope on her yet, They have the potential to be really nice bikes.
Cosmetics are easy as long as the mechanical aspects work the rest comes with time. I took this same bike just 3 weeks ago from the pile of junk in the first pic, and turned it into whats in the second pic in just a weeks time ( The cosmetics only ) for around $50 in supplies.

I don't plan on it! but money is kind of tight right now unfortunately. But I'll take it apart and see what I come up with, probably start a build thread or something ha!

[Unleashed]

Originally Posted by hawker1693

I don't plan on it! but money is kind of tight right now unfortunately. But I'll take it apart and see what I come up with, probably start a build thread or something ha!

If you do let me know, I can show you where to heat the frame, how to heat it and where to hook a come along to pull it back straight. Might but shouldn't need to pull the engine unless it twisted excessively rather than having just spread. but all the plastics got to come off.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Unleashed

Thanx for that added pic ( n4mwd )

Thatll make this easier for me.
The frame of this bike is actually considered a 2 piece as it is dependent on the
engine being in its place for overall load bearing. It supports the weight distribution between the front and rear or ( horizontal load ) in the structure. Without that front bolt the frame basically spread at its weakest point ( the low end of the frame ) Your front and rear wheel actually pushed away from one another. The spot circled in red it where it will have bent. If you want help on an easy way to fix it let me know I can walk you through it. Though it will never be as strong as it was again, the fact that the engine is taking the brunt of the horizontal load it should be fine ( safe ) to do so.

You are right about that being the weakest point without the engine, but the frame is made from 4130 chromoly steel - not spring steel. Its simply not going to bend there just sitting. Riding like that can cause stresses that may cause it to bend. But its not going to flex under its own weight. Something is wrong with it.

I had mine apart without the engine and there was no flexing. In fact, I routinely remove the front mount bolt when I do a valve job. Its the easiest way to remove the valve cover. The engine barely sags when both rear mount bolts are in place.

[hawker1693]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

You are right about that being the weakest point without the engine, but the frame is made from 4130 chromoly steel - not spring steel. Its simply not going to bend there just sitting. Riding like that can cause stresses that may cause it to bend. But its not going to flex under its own weight. Something is wrong with it.

I had mine apart without the engine and there was no flexing. In fact, I routinely remove the front mount bolt when I do a valve job. Its the easiest way to remove the valve cover. The engine barely sags when both rear mount bolts are in place.

Is it a possibility that over the past while it has only been held on by the rear mounts and from riding/bumps/etc maybe its weakened it to the point of bending? breaking? at the part circled in red..

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by hawker1693

Is it a possibility that over the past while it has only been held on by the rear mounts and from riding/bumps/etc maybe its weakened it to the point of bending? breaking? at the part circled in red..

Yes, if you rode it with no front bolt then the vibration can cause bending. But obviously, either the upper rear mount is broken or missing.

Here is a video I did a while back showing the front mount bolt being removed for getting the valve cover out.

Link to original page on YouTube.

EDIT: Note in the video that the engine doesn't sag.

[hawker1693]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Yes, if you rode it with no front bolt then the vibration can cause bending. But obviously, either the upper rear mount is broken or missing.

Here is a video I did a while back showing the front mount bolt being removed for getting the valve cover out.

EDIT: Note in the video that the engine doesn't sag.

I'll take a look and let y'all know what I find.

[Unleashed]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

You are right about that being the weakest point without the engine, but the frame is made from 4130 chromoly steel - not spring steel. Its simply not going to bend there just sitting. Riding like that can cause stresses that may cause it to bend. But its not going to flex under its own weight. Something is wrong with it.

I had mine apart without the engine and there was no flexing. In fact, I routinely remove the front mount bolt when I do a valve job. Its the easiest way to remove the valve cover. The engine barely sags when both rear mount bolts are in place.

He said he had been riding it when it happened, I get the 4130,. I'm a structural engineer. And I know it wont bend just sitting, He had ridden it to and from somewhere, so chances are it bent when he leaned into it and gave it some gas on that turn, the engine torquing in the frame without that bolt would have caused the bend.

[hawker1693]

Originally Posted by Unleashed

He said he had been riding it when it happened, I get the 4130,. I'm a structural engineer. And I know it wont bend just sitting, He had ridden it to and from somewhere, so chances are it bent when he leaned into it and gave it some gas on that turn, the engine torquing in the frame without that bolt would have caused the bend.

Originally Posted by n4mwd

The frame is 4130 chromoly steel. The good news is that it can be welded back together. The bad news is that it has to be done just right or you'll have a big mess. Its best to find someone with a TIG welder that has experience welding aircraft steel without warpage. You cannot use an arc/stick welder on chromoly. It will break with the first bump in the road.

Took the tank and fairings off and....the frame is broken.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by hawker1693

Took the tank and fairings off and....the frame is broken. I'll post pictures when I get home.

The frame is 4130 chromoly steel. The good news is that it can be welded back together. The bad news is that it has to be done just right or you'll have a big mess. Its best to find someone with a TIG welder that has experience welding aircraft steel without warpage. You cannot use an arc/stick welder on chromoly. It will break with the first bump in the road.

[hawker1693]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

The frame is 4130 chromoly steel. The good news is that it can be welded back together. The bad news is that it has to be done just right or you'll have a big mess. Its best to find someone with a TIG welder that has experience welding aircraft steel without warpage. You cannot use an arc/stick welder on chromoly. It will break with the first bump in the road.

Okay! Thanks for the info it'll help a lot when finding someone to fix this.

Whats this 'big mess' you are referring to? Talking about proper alignment or just finding the right welder to weld this type of steel so the frame doesn't literally become a mess haha

[choneofakind]

Might be easier to find a new frame and swap everything over...

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by hawker1693

Okay! Thanks for the info it'll help a lot when finding someone to fix this.

Whats this 'big mess' you are referring to? Talking about proper alignment or just finding the right welder to weld this type of steel so the frame doesn't literally become a mess haha

If someone without the proper skills and equipment tries to weld on it, it could result in a warped frame. Then you have to mess with it to try to straighten it out. That can make it warped somewhere else if not done right. Plus you need all the plastics, wiring and aluminum far far away because they'll melt. In short, you pretty much have to strip it down to the frame to even get started.

When I weld stuff like this, my rule is aluminum no closer than 12", plastic and wiring no closer than 24" and any fuel no closer than 10 feet to the weld spot. The steel parts in close proximity will usually survive the heat, but you'll need to sand and repaint. Of course whoever does your welding will have their own rules and may require the frame to be completely stripped.

Another thing about welding chromoly is that it has to be cooled very slowly or else it gets really brittle.

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Might be easier to find a new frame and swap everything over...

Easier said than done. The frame is the legal part of the bike and is the only part that has a title. So in addition to the cost of the new frame, you have to transfer the title. So figure on whatever your DMV charges to get it legal. Usually that's title fees, new tags, etc. I just did one for my cousin here in FL and it was $300 for that transfer once all the dust was settled. Also, there are a lot of frames on craigs list that don't have titles that you can't use. There was a guy on here that swapped the entire bike over only to find that the title wasn't right and he couldn't legally use the frame he just bought so he had to swap it all back.

So the bottom line is that unless the frame is totally unsalvageable, then you should just fix it.

BTW, did anyone else notice that we are posting this stuff in a "Near Misses" thread? This should be over in the pregen tech section.

[n4mwd]

Ok, I just saw your picture you posted (way up there) and that is a stress fracture caused by excessive bending while riding. That was in turn caused by the missing front engine mount bolt. Kind of like taking a paper clip and bending it back and forth until it breaks.

Did you check your rear engine mounts to see if they were broken off too?

If both rear mounting bolts are still in the rear of the engine, then something else broke. Could be the frame or it could be the engine itself.

Or it could be that the upper rear bolt fell out as well. Hopefully, that is the case so you have one less thing to worry about.

[hawker1693]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Ok, I just saw your picture you posted (way up there) and that is a stress fracture caused by excessive bending while riding. That was in turn caused by the missing front engine mount bolt. Kind of like taking a paper clip and bending it back and forth until it breaks.

Did you check your rear engine mounts to see if they were broken off too?

If both rear mounting bolts are still in the rear of the engine, then something else broke. Could be the frame or it could be the engine itself.

Or it could be that the upper rear bolt fell out as well. Hopefully, that is the case so you have one less thing to worry about.

Yeah, I checked all the engine mounts and they are fine as far as I can tell.

I believe all that happened was...since the front of the engine wasn't attached it allowed the frame to break (as pictured) thus causing the whole front of the bike to move up-word making it look like the engine was sagging however it was the whole rear end of the bike along with the engine that was sagging.

I'll look over it more but at first glance I didn't notice anything else broken/bent.

EDIT: not sure if an admin can move all this stuff to another thread but I feel kinda bad hijacking the original ^

[Alex]

/moved to its own thread

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by hawker1693

Yeah, I checked all the engine mounts and they are fine as far as I can tell.

I believe all that happened was...since the front of the engine wasn't attached it allowed the frame to break (as pictured) thus causing the whole front of the bike to move up-word making it look like the engine was sagging however it was the whole rear end of the bike along with the engine that was sagging.

I'll look over it more but at first glance I didn't notice anything else broken/bent.

EDIT: not sure if an admin can move all this stuff to another thread but I feel kinda bad hijacking the original ^

If the engine mounts, both frame and engine, are OK, then that is one less thing you have to worry about.

Still, that is a big mess for just one bolt falling out.

Time to start looking for a qualified welder that knows what he's doing. If he wants to stick weld chromoly, then he doesn't. You can MIG weld it with gas flux in a pinch, but TIG is best.

[Lychee]

I'd spend the time and money researching the TIG welder in researching, buying, and making legal a bare frame. That's just me. I don't know what the TIG welder's labor would cost, but I would guess that $300 would be close for quality.

[n4mwd]

Another option going in a different direction is that he could part out the bike and then use the funds to buy another one just like it (minus the cracked frame). Might take a year or two to sell everything, but usually people end up with more than they could sell the bike for whole.

Or something similar.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by hawker1693

Took the tank and fairings off and....the frame is broken......

Are those cracks running all way around?
Like you could completely separate both parts of each tube apart?

[FvnnyL3tt3r1ng]

Such a mess! Probably the worst 250 I've seen someone pass on to another!

[fishdip]

Wow that really sucks sorry for the brake down.

[7oxSin]

1.) how much did you pay for this poor ninja
2.) who sold it to you? you need to take that frame and em with it.
3.) with the cost of the weld and the overall poor condition of that ninja if i was in your position i would buy a new one and sell off the old parts/ keep some of em. you can make a good 300 min for the engine alone. 200ish for the fairings, 100ish for the tires, 100 for rims, so on and so on. these are lowball prices too.
4.) did i mention beating the holy **** outta the guy that sold it to you?

im so sorry for your loss, im glad your ok, but with a 1000$ bike a snapped frame would be a show stopper for me. even if you got it all fixed the money you spent would be about the same you would have to take off the price if you sold it. so you would loose double your money.

[hawker1693]

Originally Posted by Lychee

I'd spend the time and money researching the TIG welder in researching, buying, and making legal a bare frame. That's just me. I don't know what the TIG welder's labor would cost, but I would guess that $300 would be close for quality.

^ Plan on checking into someone with a TIG welder before I make a decision. My dad is an industrial designer and has a lot of connections so he's going to contact a guy for me.

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Another option going in a different direction is that he could part out the bike and then use the funds to buy another one just like it (minus the cracked frame). Might take a year or two to sell everything, but usually people end up with more than they could sell the bike for whole.

Or something similar.

Yeah we'll have to see what happens..

Originally Posted by Motofool

Are those cracks running all way around?
Like you could completely separate both parts of each tube apart?

Not sure, I'm forgetful haha (or I only looked at it briefly)! but it looks like it from the picture. I'm going to take a good look at it tomorrow and probably start taking some crap off.

Originally Posted by FvnnyL3tt3r1ng

Such a mess! Probably the worst 250 I've seen someone pass on to another!

Lol, yeah its pretty rickety..

Originally Posted by fishdip

Wow that really sucks sorry for the brake down.

[hawker1693]

Originally Posted by 7oxSin

1.) how much did you pay for this poor ninja
2.) who sold it to you? you need to take that frame and em with it.
3.) with the cost of the weld and the overall poor condition of that ninja if i was in your position i would buy a new one and sell off the old parts/ keep some of em. you can make a good 300 min for the engine alone. 200ish for the fairings, 100ish for the tires, 100 for rims, so on and so on. these are lowball prices too.
4.) did i mention beating the holy **** outta the guy that sold it to you?

im so sorry for your loss, im glad your ok, but with a 1000$ bike a snapped frame would be a show stopper for me. even if you got it all fixed the money you spent would be about the same you would have to take off the price if you sold it. so you would loose double your money.

1.) I paid $800 for it
2.) Cant remember his name I'd have to check the old title
3.) this sounds like a reasonable plan
4.) Wait...I may recall some mention of that

Yeah I got lucky and didn't die a miserable death on the freeway, so I'm happy for that!

[7oxSin]

Originally Posted by hawker1693

1.) I paid $800 for it
2.) Cant remember his name I'd have to check the old title
3.) this sounds like a reasonable plan
4.) Wait...I may recall some mention of that

Yeah I got lucky and didn't die a miserable death on the freeway, so I'm happy for that!

you could make back 800 and still have half that bike left, get you a good ninja. you will **** yourself once you have rode one thats been loved and cared for its a whole different monster. not to mention the piece of mind of having a bike that your not afraid to ride/explode.

[hawker1693]

Originally Posted by 7oxSin

you could make back 800 and still have half that bike left, get you a good ninja. you will **** yourself once you have rode one thats been loved and cared for its a whole different monster. not to mention the piece of mind of having a bike that your not afraid to ride/explode.

I'm really hoping for a new-gen now haha! WHO WANTS TO BUY PARTS?!?! lol still gotta check into this dude that may be able to weld it but we'll see.

[7oxSin]

Originally Posted by hawker1693

I'm really hoping for a new-gen now haha! WHO WANTS TO BUY PARTS?!?! lol still gotta check into this dude that may be able to weld it but we'll see.

yeah the new gens might be a hair slower but they are super pretty. they are finally starting to come down in price, yesterday someone had a blue 08 for sale for 1500. body was scratched up but nothing that you couldnt fix.

[n4mwd]

The high dollar parts are the engine, tank and fairings. Here are some parts on ebay right now.

Front fender $70+s&h

*Upper Fairing $170+

Lower Fairing - $164

tank - $150 + s&h

*Engine - $425 + $400 s&h

*Note that these items are expensive to ship because of weight and size.

So if you sold just those parts you would get about $1000 right there. But like I said, it takes a while to do it so you'll need a place to store them and also a good system to ship them all out if you part it out.

I hate to see a bike parted out, but in all honesty, it may be the best choice. It all depends on what your welder says.

[hawker1693]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

The high dollar parts are the engine, tank and fairings. Here are some parts on ebay right now.

Front fender $70+s&h

*Upper Fairing $170+

Lower Fairing - $164

tank - $150 + s&h

*Engine - $425 + $400 s&h

*Note that these items are expensive to ship because of weight and size.

So if you sold just those parts you would get about $1000 right there. But like I said, it takes a while to do it so you'll need a place to store them and also a good system to ship them all out if you part it out.

I hate to see a bike parted out, but in all honesty, it may be the best choice. It all depends on what your welder says.

Yeah, the only problem is the fairings and tank are all damaged..

Tank is punctured on both sides due to the dummy who I bought it from putting too long of bolts in it I suppose. Its also pretty dented up.

The front upper fairing has a scrape from my bro dropping it as well as a crack on the left side.

Left fairing has a crack from the stress of the frame braking causing the gas tank to move.

Right fairing has broken tabs but that's something i could fix.

Rear fairing is busted up as well..may be fixable. lastly the lower fairing..its broken but fixable I believe have to check it out again.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by hawker1693

........Not sure, I'm forgetful haha (or I only looked at it briefly)! but it looks like it from the picture. I'm going to take a good look at it tomorrow and probably start taking some crap off............

If so, the welder could insert some heavier tubes or machined cylinders inside to make the welding of the fine walls less difficult.
He could also make a bridge piece to join the transverse tube and the flat piece aft and forward of the rupture.

With the missing long bolt anchoring the engine's head to the frame (which has been gone for some respectable amount of miles), that portion to be welded is not under much stress.
For that reason, even a half decent welding job should last for the remaining of the bike's life.

I would try repairing that and keeping the bike as cheap transportation.
Due to subtle but important misalignment of a repaired frame, some handling issues may result for high performance sport riding.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by hawker1693

Yeah, the only problem is the fairings and tank are all damaged..

Tank is punctured on both sides due to the dummy who I bought it from putting too long of bolts in it I suppose. Its also pretty dented up.

The front upper fairing has a scrape from my bro dropping it as well as a crack on the left side.

Left fairing has a crack from the stress of the frame braking causing the gas tank to move.

Right fairing has broken tabs but that's something i could fix.

Rear fairing is busted up as well..may be fixable. lastly the lower fairing..its broken but fixable I believe have to check it out again.

It sounds like you need to take the tank to the welder too. He'll probably just silver solder that.

It does sound like you have a lot of work cut out for you.

They have dent pullers that work on tanks now. It spot welds a little bolt to the dent and then that is screwed to a puller that pulls the dent out.

There is a place online where you can order touchup paint for the ninjas, but its expensive.