June 7th, 2022, 12:55 AM | #1 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Maurice
Location: San Francisco
Join Date: Sep 2018 Motorcycle(s): bastardized ninja 250 (think land speed record with a sidecar) soon to swap a 500 engine Posts: 34
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Advancing ignition timing (has anyone else done this?)
Hey all, in the quest for an extra mile per hour or two, I have advanced my ignition timing 4.5 degrees for a total of 46.5 degrees full advance, I’m worried it’s a bit much, but I’m going to play with jetting in the morning and see what the plugs look like. I’m running 91 octane in hopes to prevent detonation.
I’ve jetted up pretty big with the pod filter and 2-1 exhaust. I currently have a #40 pilot, 2 shims under the needle, and a 115 main. My plug chop is looking lean at the moment and I know I only have one larger main jet (118) in the kit I bought. It seems to be running good at the moment now that I’ve fixed a petcock vacuum leak, it really picked up power in the 6000-8000 rpm range, though that may have been because of fresh plugs and a vacuum fix. It just looks a bit lean so I’ll see what it looks like with a bigger main. Anyway, I’m wondering if anyone has filed down their woodruff key on their pre-gen for more timing advance? Did anyone have good results? I’m planning to drive this bike (and the attached sidecar) to Colorado next week, and I want to get in some miles and maybe advice from anyone who has played with timing. Maurice |
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June 7th, 2022, 08:08 AM | #2 |
Its not a 250,its a Ninja
Name: Shaun
Location: Little Rock, AR
Join Date: Jun 2012 Motorcycle(s): '12 Ninja Kaw, '22 CFMOTO 300NK Posts: 275
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Interesting post. I found this that you may want to read. Looks like to really get the gains for this mod, you will need to convert to fuel injection.
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June 7th, 2022, 04:56 PM | #3 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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You're close to maximum-timing anyway. Similar mod is to install '88-94 pre-gen ignitor. Which has 7-degrees more ignition than '08-12 new-gen. More won't give you much even if you bump up octane to 117. Full exhaust will give you +22% +6bhp. About as fast as 300. Even better to increase compression and displacement. Way, way more gains than anything else. People have gotten double factory power this way.
Here's chart of bone-stock 250 with snorkel removed. It's got way, way too much fuel anyway. Your carbs are most likely dirty and clogged. Need complete carb disassembly and restoration... And get a wideband, reading tea-leaves gets expensive with buying new plugs for each run. |
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June 7th, 2022, 05:30 PM | #4 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Maurice
Location: San Francisco
Join Date: Sep 2018 Motorcycle(s): bastardized ninja 250 (think land speed record with a sidecar) soon to swap a 500 engine Posts: 34
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Quote:
I worked hard before to get the jetting just right 3 years ago when I first put the sidecar on. The K&N filter that covers both carbs did great for flow and evening out the air a bit. I initially had a 118 main jet when I put emgo shorty mufflers on my exhaust, but they did nothing for actual sound deadening or back pressure and were brutally loud. After a couple weeks I put a 2-1 exhaust and a gsxr 1000 can I had lying around, it reduced a lot of noise, and gave me some back pressure, and I brought the main down to 115 since it was running a bit rich. My carbs are squeaky clean, I ride this thing a ton, and a lot of fresh fuel goes through them. You’re right about the power increase from the exhaust and intake. It had significant gains at first. I’m hoping to take this to bonneville this fall to set the sidecar 250cc record, and was hoping I could find some who had tried bumping the timing more. I put in my 118 jets this afternoon and took it on the freeway. It does go faster from before by about 2mph, but I don’t know if the side wind was aiding me or hindering me. And again, I fixed a vacuum leak so it may have been what was robbing me of power. I still can’t get any color at the end of my porcelain, and it looks as if it’s still lean. I haven’t cut them open yet though. I didn’t think advancing the timing would call for that much more fuel, but I’ll have to order even bigger jets until I can see it in the plug. I do have a wideband O2 sensor on my turbo nitrous Subaru powered vw bug, I’ll see how hard it’ll be to swap that over to the bike, might not be worth it. |
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June 7th, 2022, 09:15 PM | #5 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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Ah pre-gen... '95-07 ignitors had 38-degree advance so you're at 42.5 now. You can re-pin the connector and use '88-94 ignitor for 42-degree igntion.
Use the wideband, you'd be amazed at how much more accurate it is than reading-plugs, which is just an average. Especially if it has datalogging. Just do couple runs at different throttle-openings, dump memory and draw pretty graphs. I find I usually have to adjust in opposite directions, remove fuel in some areas while increasing in others. |
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June 7th, 2022, 10:23 PM | #6 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Maurice
Location: San Francisco
Join Date: Sep 2018 Motorcycle(s): bastardized ninja 250 (think land speed record with a sidecar) soon to swap a 500 engine Posts: 34
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Quote:
I’ll see if I can get a wideband hooked up. |
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June 8th, 2022, 06:58 AM | #7 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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Here's connector pin-out info for adapting early pre-gen ignitors onto late-pregen bikes. Just move terminals around in connector. https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=372256
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June 8th, 2022, 07:12 AM | #8 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Maurice
Location: San Francisco
Join Date: Sep 2018 Motorcycle(s): bastardized ninja 250 (think land speed record with a sidecar) soon to swap a 500 engine Posts: 34
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Quote:
The owners manual says it’s 42, and I found something else that looked official saying the same. Do you have a thread, or more info on this? https://ownersmanuals2.com/kawasaki/...s-manual-52704 It’s on page 9, says 10 degrees at 1300 rpm, 5 for CA bikes, and 42 degrees at 4500 Maurice |
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June 13th, 2022, 10:34 AM | #9 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Maurice
Location: San Francisco
Join Date: Sep 2018 Motorcycle(s): bastardized ninja 250 (think land speed record with a sidecar) soon to swap a 500 engine Posts: 34
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Quote:
I jetting all the way up to a 125 main. It felt rich and I was slowing down. I went back down to a 120 and it feels good, but it still blows my mind that a jet that big even works. Unfortunately I don’t have time to get a wideband on it before I leave for my 1,250 mile Colorado trip. But I’ll try to get some fresh plugs and chop them at different running loads and rpm’s. I’ll also bring a set of jets to Colorado, I’ll be heading up pikes peak (14,000’) and I may need to jet down for that. |
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July 3rd, 2022, 08:09 AM | #10 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Maurice
Location: San Francisco
Join Date: Sep 2018 Motorcycle(s): bastardized ninja 250 (think land speed record with a sidecar) soon to swap a 500 engine Posts: 34
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Update, I rode this 3000 miles to Colorado and back to California before melting a piston.
I bought an o2 gauge while in Colorado to help me with jetting. I ran a 115 main with no shims and a #40 idle screwed out 2.5 turns. I learned that the idle adjustments affect the entire rpm range significantly. It was cool to see it on the gauge. It was a decent jet for 5000 feet, but would have gone leaner up high (pikes peak was 14k). Coming down the mountain I jetted bigger, but a thunderstorm killed my gauge, and the engine had been running weird for awhile. When I got down to Bakersfield, the engine was running amazing: 118 main, 2 shims, 40 pilot, 2.75 screws out. But I knew I was probably at the limit of lean. I hopped back on the freeway with 99 degree ambient temps, and a piston let go. That piston was having problems for about 1500 miles, but it finally went. In conclusion, yes you can advance your timing. Yes I did feel that it picked up more mid range, but can’t say it made more power up top. But I did kill it, and I’m not sure this would be best for a daily driver, but I likely ran lean. My engine was a $100 “mystery motor”, that when I bought it, the valves were so tight, it would only run for 5 minutes before losing compression, then stall at idle and not be able to be started again until cooled. I had no issues experimenting on this since it gave me over 3 hard years with a sidecar. I’ll be swapping in a 500cc engine in soon |
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July 3rd, 2022, 04:27 PM | #11 |
Its not a 250,its a Ninja
Name: Shaun
Location: Little Rock, AR
Join Date: Jun 2012 Motorcycle(s): '12 Ninja Kaw, '22 CFMOTO 300NK Posts: 275
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Sorry about the piston issue, but that last statement is very interesting. I have seen threads about doing this very swap. Do you already have your plan, like will the 250 trans work with the 500 engine? Will we be able to enjoy a build thread?
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July 3rd, 2022, 04:36 PM | #12 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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Transmission is built into engine case. It swaps in with engine.
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July 5th, 2022, 09:01 AM | #13 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Maurice
Location: San Francisco
Join Date: Sep 2018 Motorcycle(s): bastardized ninja 250 (think land speed record with a sidecar) soon to swap a 500 engine Posts: 34
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Quote:
I’m usually terrible about taking pictures, but I’ll try to make a video this time of my progress. I bought the engines like 3 years ago, and it looks like I already started prepping them a bit. I’ll probably do a build thread after the swap is complete, so I can do it all in one post. |
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July 5th, 2022, 09:29 AM | #14 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Maurice
Location: San Francisco
Join Date: Sep 2018 Motorcycle(s): bastardized ninja 250 (think land speed record with a sidecar) soon to swap a 500 engine Posts: 34
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