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Old March 19th, 2022, 02:49 AM   #1
Bob KellyIII
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Mono shock spring replacement???

Hi All....
I have a problem with my new bike ..... it rides too hard.... i mean really HARD
after 30 minutes i feel beat to death....and that's on the street I haven't had the guts to take it off road being that rough riding
...the thing is I can leap way up and land with all my weight on the seat and there is no give at all..... NONE....
but I have hit a big chuck hole and it did move that I know for sure....
I weigh 185lbs and I think the bike is sprung for a 300 pounder !
so I was thinking of trying to replace the spring on the rear shock to see if I can make it softer riding....
problem is I have no idea what spring rate to get... 200lb. ? 500lb... i haven't a clue and I can't get any info on what that spring is rated at on the bike but it's gott'a be really hard !
the rear swing arm does indeed move freely i checked that.... it's the darn spring is super hard....
the bike weighs 450lbs ( slightly more than the Triumph 750.)
the front forks I have adjusted just about right now so when I go over a bump the front isn't so bad but the rear is like a kick in the pants even on small bumps..... i have 28psi. in front and rear for tire pressure
and that only helped a very small amount... most of the bumps around here are bigger than that
.......
to be honnest I really don't know what to do ..but I gott'a do something !
this thing beats me to a pulp before I go 30 miles !
I suppose I could fill the saddle bags and top box with rocks to give it some weight but that is going the wrong direction if ya know what I mean ! LOL
....
I have the pre load all the way to the top of the adjustment so the bike sets as low as possible ...if I move the bike by dragging it's ass around the tire usually drops a good 4" but comes back when I straighten it upright...lol that's how loose it is !.... so it's not too much preload ! but that spring does not flex at all.... so I was thinking of replacing it with something lighter
....anyone have any suggestions ?
i'm thinking a 250lb spring but that may well be too light and I don't want to buy 4 or 5 springs just to find the right one for my weight !

I am guessing wildly but I think the back of the bike weighs 200lbs trying to lift it from the rear( which i can almost do but not quite !)
so to me a 250 to 275lb spring should do it I think....

.... Suggestions ?????
Bob......
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Old March 19th, 2022, 05:28 AM   #2
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Bob, I would suggest putting the back wheel on a bathroom scale...... most go to around 300 lbs..... be sure to hold bike upright at the handlebars when weighing.
I believe you also have to add your weight to the equation when figuring out spring rate.
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Old March 19th, 2022, 11:44 AM   #3
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Also roll other wheel onto piece of 2x4 both wheels are level with scale.

It's not springs, it's damping that affects ride-quality aspects you're talking about. Turn down high/low-speed compression damping.

Also, your lowered bike is probably bottoming out on bumps. Sag should be about 1" not 4"! When there's no more suspension-travel, full force of impacts comes through. Remedy for this is actually stiffer springs to work with less travel. Increase preload and raise rear-end back up and you'll find it's much more comfortable!

Most likely pivot-bearings in your swingarm and linkage are dry and need greasing. I do complete teardown of suspension and grease everything every winter. Makes HUGE difference in ride-quality. Quick test on your bike would be to remove rear-wheel and disconnect lower shock. Test moving swingarm up and down by hand. If not glass smooth, definitely needs cleaning and greasing.
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Old March 19th, 2022, 06:28 PM   #4
Bob KellyIII
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OK good info there guys thanks...
Danno it's not bottoming out... at least I am almost certain it isn't.... even though it rides like it.... before I lowered it I had the same problem all my weight bouncing on the seat didn't make the bike react at all.
(no flex downward).. it's like the hardest rear suspension I have ever seen on a bike !....all i did was back off the preload adjustment all the way to the top of the shock and that lowered it about 2"
........
I think I'll swap out the Ninja and put in the RX4 in the shop and see what I can do for that rear suspension...
I want to pull the shock and spring off and see if by chance the spring is removeable .... that will also tell me if it's bottoming out for an absolute certainty.
they may well have added stops to keep the rear wheel from touching the fender well...( the ninja's wheel can touch the fender well)... but I have not been able to compress the rear anywhere near that far....
....
the XR650L Honda I had, had an extremely hard suspension spring in the rear..... but it at least flexed when I bounced on it..... this thing is like a park bench !
.....
...
so I should weigh the back of the bike ( 2x4 under front tire so it's level)
sit on it like normal and measure/read the reading on the scale and get a spring for that weight?.....
it's supposed to have fairly long rear suspension travel too so it will be getting a spring that has that travel and weight ....I THINK !!!!!!
....
I've seen one place with springs that should work for $38.00 in just about every shape and size... so to me that is the best option
....
....
Bob......
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Old March 28th, 2022, 07:51 PM   #5
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Not sure if they do street bikes, but Race Tech might have a calculator for spring rates.
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Old March 28th, 2022, 10:57 PM   #6
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Well, from what I have learned on the net about this bike is ....it is sprung very hard... a few guys on the China riders forum had the same complaint as I do
it rides too hard ! that seems to be due to the fact that they added a 650lb spring on the rear shock because guys were bottoming out on jumps....
so they fixed that..... but if your not jumping the bike you still have to contend with that very hard spring... "Sigh"
the fella on that site told me that he got a totally new shock and spring from
one company and that cured his problem that spring was 450lb weight....
i contacted the company and they wanted $850.00 for the same set up but said I would have to get a spring elsewhere as they don't have that spring any more
i told him that was too expensive for my blood and thanks anyway !
so I wrote to CSC and Joey gave me a bunch of leads of people tackling this problem on different sites ...which was nice... and one guy said he got a spring from Maximum motorsports that worked for him... so I went to maximum motorsports and found a spring I liked at 8" tall 2 1/4" I.D. and 475lbs weight.
with a price of $90. +$20. shipping so I ordered it... then they took the money and said the shipment has been delayed because the part is on back order and will be delayed at least 2 weeks or longer.....
.....
so that is where I sit....
...
the one guy said that his 450lb spring was just a little too soft , that is why I got a 475lb instead of a 450lb....

....
here's what I plan to do....
I plan to pull off the shock /spring and put the new spring on that shock
if the spring keepers don't fit I'll make new ones on the lathe.
and then I'll put the old shock and new spring back on the bike and bring the preload adjustment down to the top of the spring and maybe a bit more depending on how much sag I get. but I will still be able to touch the ground
with both feet or I won't do it..... it is far too dangerous not to be able to touch the ground with your feet than I am willing to over look to inconvenience..... Yes I've heard all the rebuttals to that statement....from, you'll get used to it, to you can learn to ride a tall bike..... but nothing about it is safer to not be able to touch the ground ! and i think everyone knows it isn't..... to me it's a stupid trend that the manufacturers has forced upon us
thinking ALL americans are 7'6" tall and weigh 250lbs soaking wet.....
they don't have this problem in china they make lower bikes there !
but the bikes they do import on occasion are a major problem people can't touch the ground !
.....
think about it... if you have to slide your butt off the seat to give you enough
leg length to touch the ground what happens in that emergency stop? you fall over because there wasn't enough time to slide off the seat..... and that will get you ran over in traffic.....
if your riding a bike where you cannot touch the ground I'm not calling you stupid by any means.... but you are taking a bigger risk than I am when you ride your bike.... LOWER the stupid thing it's not that hard !
......
sorry.....RANT over !
....
Bob.......
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Old May 3rd, 2022, 07:58 PM   #7
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Ok...an update is in order here....
the spring I got from Maximum motosports was 2.5" I.D. so I sent it back and got my money back and I've tried several times to talk to Mike down there but I guess he is just too busy to answer any questions on their invintory....
the problem is the spring I need, is not a car shock spring it's a bike shock spring and they seem to be scarse as hen's teeth !
I need a 2" I.D. spring 10" long with a rate of 450lbs to 500lbs
I found a few on Maximun motorsports web site but I am very reluctant to do any business with them again as they screwed up the 1st order I gave them
sent me 2 springs instead of one and charged my account and THEN told me they were on back order..... not the most reputable company I have ever dealt with by any means .... though I did finally get that transaction completed I think (pay pal has yet to deposit the money in my account though).
i really don't want to do business with a CAR spring place for my motorcycle as they have no idea what I need even though I give them the dimensions they can't seem to find anything like it ... really weird !
......
So I am hoping someone here will know of a spring manufacturer that will sell me a spring that might fit my bike ??????
I will check with Race tech and see what they have right now ...
...
Bob......
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Old May 4th, 2022, 07:41 AM   #8
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I can second Race Tech, they will certainly be able to help you. Of course, they're local down here, so all the riders in these parts use them pretty exclusively, but I believe they're a pretty much accepted supplier for all things suspension-related. Even if they don't have CSC in their catalog (or maybe they do, I don't know!) they can get you a spring based on your specs.
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Old May 4th, 2022, 08:05 AM   #9
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well, they do have a very screwy site...extremely hard to navigate through
but after an hour of poking around I did find a place that said if your bike isn;t listed either call us or fill out the pdf. and email it to us and we'll get back to you..... problem is to fill out the PDF. you have to remove the shock to get the measurements.... AURGH !
I'll probably give them a call it's easier I'll just have my wife listen for me LOL
turn the phone to max volume and put it on speaker ! if everything is quite I can usually hear that then !
... it's a bitch getting old !
....LOL
Later !
Bob.......
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Old May 4th, 2022, 08:23 AM   #10
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Yeah, definitely worth a call. That website is showing its age.
Ditch the cellphone and get a landline, that's the only way I can hear anything and I'm not even old! We've all got 5G in our pockets so Bezos can empty our bank accounts, but we can't hear what we're trying to say to each other.
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Old May 4th, 2022, 09:17 AM   #11
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So earlier you said...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII View Post
I need a 2" I.D. spring 10" long with a rate of 450lbs to 500lbs
and now...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII View Post
problem is to fill out the PDF. you have to remove the shock to get the measurements....
So do you or do you not have measurements of factory shock spring?
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Old May 4th, 2022, 10:45 AM   #12
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I do NOT.... I have 248mm long,80mm wide,50mm travel for the stock spring
and that is not enough....
the stock spring's I.D is 2".... I measured that.
length near 10", i measured that...
tried to make it flex and it was like pushing on concrete....obviously.
....
so I need a spring that is 2" or a tiny bit over that in Inner diameter.
it needs to be 9"~10" long over all (most are 9.7" ...they will work for length)
and it's rate around 510~520 lbs.
....
....
some guy said his stock spring right near 650lbs
another guy bought a high tech shock system for his RX4 and he had to buy the spring elsewhere because they didn't have one in stock... he got a 511lb spring
and has ridden it all over the place back east and loves it he does say that it is a bit too soft though.... so I am thinking a 520lb spring would be perfect for me
.... been doing alot of looking at race tech's web site and I think I found a few springs that will work the springs cost about $50.00 more than elsewhere but at least they say they have them in stock.... for $150.00
problem is I emailed Race tech and they haven't gotten back to me yet
I guess they expect you to call !
I tried a second time to get into the same place where I found an inventory list of springs on Race tech's site but could not find out how I got in there the first time.... their site works off of your bikes make and model and they don't have a CSC RX4 listed (big surprise)
..... I keep forgetting I am looking for a 500 to 550lb spring not a 450 to 475lb spring and the one I found on their site was a 485lb.... A bit too weak
.....
you can't really buy anything off their site either because of the way they have it set up.... it takes the year make and model to make it all work right...
I put in a KLR 650 and had no trouble getting to the buy stage but without that you can't get there..... and I don't really feel safe ordering something for a KLR 650 for my RX4 if you know what I mean .... they just give you a part number of their recommended part for that bike.... and I have no idea what fits a KLR !!!!!! .... but it's the only way to get into their goofy setup !
....
so calling is the only way it is going to work for me I am afraid.
....
why they don't have search our inventory for rear springs I don't know
....well they do but only after you put in the make and model ! LOL
...you can't get to their inventory any other way, I don't think...
this is not the first time I have ran into this put in the make and model and we'll fix you up BS.... it's about the 3rd time and NONE of them have a CSC RX4 in their list to choose from and you cannot add any other one.
it's very frustrating !
maybe I'll just put the stock spring on the lathe and take a carbide cutter to it and trim it down 1/8" from top to bottom ! LOL
.....

Bob....
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Old May 4th, 2022, 11:53 AM   #13
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OK Looks like I will have a 537lb spring coming soon.....
Matt at Race tech answered my email with a few options of ones they have in stock.... so I emailed him back with some info and told him I want that one and on the phone he said he will email me the info so I can pay for it...
I told him that sounded good to me !
... looks like it will fit perfectly...and the rate might be a bit stiff but it's bound to be better than what is on it ! I guess I will find out !
.... $149.95 is what it cost...
...so that is that I guess ... now I just gott'a pay for it and wait for it to get here!
.....and hope that cures the harsh ride !
....
later all !
Bob......
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Old May 4th, 2022, 11:57 AM   #14
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Good luck, I hope it works. You're fortunate that CSC put a rebuildable shock on there, lots of the bigger manufacturers don't even do that.
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Old May 4th, 2022, 12:30 PM   #15
Bob KellyIII
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yah it seems to be fairly high quality .... I can get the spring off easily by just taking the preload nuts off and the spring falls off ... getting the shock out however is another story.... the top bolt is the hardest but I got it's number now ! HAHAHHA takes a #8 allen wrench on the head on the left side and a 17mm socket on the right to get the nut off but their a bitch to get in there, ya gott'a move the wiring harness over and it don't want to move much ! and it will take the socket off the extension if your not real carefull or ya don't hold your tongue right ! then you have to get the magnet and fish the socket out of the bowels if the machine because it won't hit the floor !
.....but it should be fairly straight forward .... I know what to expect this time !
HAHAHAHHAHAHA
We all know how that goes ! HA !
....
And THIS time I will grease everything ! ..... ( I'll remember right ? )
......

Bob......
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Old May 4th, 2022, 03:39 PM   #16
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Interesting.... let's see how that new spring works.

Should also measure factory spring that came out and verify its actual rate....
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Old May 4th, 2022, 04:42 PM   #17
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Danno I would love to do that but HOW could I do that ????
I have a bathroom scale and some 2" water pipe to make a long lever
there should be a way to calculate the spring's pressure... but i dunno ! LOL
..... you know the old saying if ya don't use it ya loose it ? well that's me and math ! HA !
....
I have a 2 ton come along and a tree.... .... but I need a scale for that !
....
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Old May 4th, 2022, 05:03 PM   #18
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Factory spring is about 500 lbs IIRC
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Old May 4th, 2022, 05:07 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII View Post
Danno I would love to do that but HOW could I do that ????
I have a bathroom scale and some 2" water pipe to make a long lever
there should be a way to calculate the spring's pressure... but i dunno ! LOL
..... you know the old saying if ya don't use it ya loose it ? well that's me and math ! HA !
....
I have a 2 ton come along and a tree.... .... but I need a scale for that !
....
Bob......
Bathroom-scale will work:

1. put spring on bathroom-scale
2. get 8-ft long 2x4
3. slide scale+spring up to some ledge at height of top of spring
4. put ruler up next to spring
5. wedge 2x4 under ledge and press on spring to 1" compression (need helper to read ruler while you press other end of 2x4")
6. scale-readout = spring-rate in lbs/in

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Old May 4th, 2022, 11:56 PM   #20
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Ghost I hope your wrong about that....supposed to be 650lbs !
....
Danno... problem is bathroom scales usually only go up to 300lbs (at least my scale stops at 300lbs)
...
I wonder if you could squeeze the spring 1/4" and then
multiply by 4 for lb/1 inch.... that should get me in the ball park...
problem is, that may well lift the Honda CRV off the ground ! LOL
.....that should work eh? springs are usually linear....except the progressive rate ones ....and I think the stock one is progressive rate.
I could dig out the old press I made and put the 20 ton Hydraulic jack in it and see if that would do it... but that will only tell us if it's 300lbs or not
.... I just got up so my mind is still fuzzy.... can't think about this till I've had coffee LOL ! .... yah just got up at 11:50pm.... this is going to be a long night ! AH HAHAHA.
....
Bob...
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Old May 7th, 2022, 08:48 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Also roll other wheel onto piece of 2x4 both wheels are level with scale.

It's not springs, it's damping that affects ride-quality aspects you're talking about. Turn down high/low-speed compression damping.

Also, your lowered bike is probably bottoming out on bumps. Sag should be about 1" not 4"! When there's no more suspension-travel, full force of impacts comes through. Remedy for this is actually stiffer springs to work with less travel. Increase preload and raise rear-end back up and you'll find it's much more comfortable!

Most likely pivot-bearings in your swingarm and linkage are dry and need greasing. I do complete teardown of suspension and grease everything every winter. Makes HUGE difference in ride-quality. Quick test on your bike would be to remove rear-wheel and disconnect lower shock. Test moving swingarm up and down by hand. If not glass smooth, definitely needs cleaning and greasing.
Danno.... there is no sag.... none at all just flex of the tire !
I had my Kid bounce on it with the new spring installed and I could not see the swing arm flex at all just the tire flex....
I suspect that the spring I just installed is too strong at 537lbs...
... this time I lubed the link and pivots and found they were extremely hard to turn I got the center one to pivot under it's own weight finally after spending 10 minutes turning it by hand I didn't do that to the other 2 pivots I just lubed them good with white grease.... they are definitely stiff !
I'm thinking that all the stiffness from every pivot point is adding up to freeze the rear swingarm completely I think I will loosen the bolts on the link, just to be sure there is some give, and give it a ride ( not far)
and see if it rides better....
all those pivots were bone dry only one had grease in it the one that attaches to the swing arm from the link.... the other 2 were bone dry and near impossible to turn by hand .... I don't understand that.... this is a new bike !
ok someone didn't lube the rear suspension i get that.... but would that make it so tight it wouldn't even flex ? or perhaps the bolts are too tight and locking the things in place so they can't pivot ? ....
the center bushings that ride on the bearings are supposed to be able to be crushed and still pivot that's why the bolts are supposed to be tight
but it acts like they lock up the entire suspension !!!! WTF !
.... I got more thinking to do on this.... something ain't right !
.....
Bob......
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Old May 7th, 2022, 02:23 PM   #22
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ok here is what I did I loosened the nuts on the lower end took the nuts off and put blue locktight on each one and put them back on close but I can still move the washer with my fingers ...this is so I know that the pivots will indeed pivot... I bounced on the seat again and it might have flexed but it is still rock hard I will take it for a short ride and see if it handled the bumps on Hoy road better than it has been I doubt it but it is worth a try.... if the results from that ride are negitive I will get a lighter spring AGAIN ! I bet you I have to get a 450lb spring before I can feel flex in that thing
.... if Ghost is right and it comes stock with a 500lb spring then I just wasted close to $200 bucks for the spring.... ( shipping and handling all added up to $197.00) .....
....if on the other hand it rides alot better and it doesn't beat me to death
I will be looking into why the pivot points down below are not flexing when their tight.... I suspect the bushings are all indersize on their thickness ! and when you tighten then down it locks the joint !
if so I'll be making a bunch of shims or new bushings on the lathe !
....
but I really expect it to beat me to death like always and if that's the case the spring is too strong.... I'll get another spring from Race tech the same as this last one but with a 450lb rate and try it again and hope that works !
....maybe I should go for a 400lb one as it's really hard to make that bike compress in the rear... the front is fine.... rear is hard as a rock !
..... reminds me about the time I took the shocks off my 90cc Honda and put 2 pieces of water pipe with holes drilled in them for the shock studs..... they stayed on the bike 2 days.... talk about a hard ride ! funny thing is I can't remember Why I did that..... silly but I did do it ! .... I had to drill the holes with a hand drill .... no power at the Ranch at that time...that was a job ....
a rat tail file made them fit though ... LOL....
.....it's raining here again...
we need the rain so I'm not going to complain....but we did have a good day the other day it was in the 70's ...didn't last though !( I mowed the lawn !)
...HAHAHA
Bob........
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Old May 7th, 2022, 08:01 PM   #23
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Eh? I thought you said you greased everything on 4-May???

If you can't tighten bolt without locking up suspension, that's very poor design. Take look at how Ninja 250's swingarm and shock-linkages work. There are needle bearings and the shaft that goes through bearing is what's pinched by bolts. You can tighten those bolts as hard as you want and it won't pinch bearings!

You really should gather some concrete data before proceeding further. Measure factory OEM spring that came out of shock to know for sure what you're dealing with. Given low-quality assmbly and lack of QA, i'm sure they just grab any spring from parts bin that's available. When they run out, they just grab from next available bin. Your spring may be completely different than other's. So measure yours to know what actually came on your bike! Sure, compress it 0.25-0.50" to get within bathroom-scale's capacity.

Also if you need to leave nuts loose to allow suspension to pivot, get some ny-lock nuts along with Loctite. Be sure to move swingarm up and down by hand with NO shock installed to verify it pivots smoothly.

Post some photos of this suspension, in pieces and assembled. Would be interesting to look at design.
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Old May 7th, 2022, 09:20 PM   #24
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Have to set the sag/preload on the bike? The rear shock is adjustable, what setting is it on? Did you test/inspect the shock itself when you had the spring out?

Check out the videos on how to set the sag, and what suspension is.

https://youtu.be/ZtzTyCKh5fY

https://youtu.be/uz_p-iu9C_s

Here is a link to race tech, check out the calculator.as well.

https://racetech.com/VehicleSearch

Below is a picture of the NewGen rear shock installed in my PreGen 250.If you look at the preload adjuster it's set on the highest (stiffest) setting. If you need it softer, adjust the preload by turning it down.

Once again what was the sag on the bike?
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Old May 7th, 2022, 09:32 PM   #25
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Here is an excellent write-up by InvisiBill on the old Ninja 250(88-07) also Ninja 500 suspension by a fellow forum member on ex500, and Ninette. On theses bikes a lot people are going with a new newgen (08&up)250/300 rear shock. It's a cheap, effective way to get a much better shock.

I've done quite a bit of research and played around with a few different options on my 500, but definitely listen to the guys here who actually have real-world experience on these bikes.

Getting the spring right for your weight will allow the bike to bounce the proper amount. That allows the damping to have the best control over that movement. If your spring is too soft, it will bounce around too much and your damping system will have to work harder to try to constrain that extra movement. If the spring is too stiff, it won't compress enough to absorb bumps, and the wheel will skip. http://www.ex-500.com/wiki/index.php...ension_Preload is a long read, but it has tons of info, and I think it does a good job explaining everything with examples.

According to RT's calculator, the rear spring is ideal for someone who weighs 220lb (100kg). People here have said that may not be exactly right, but the spring is definitely quite stiff compared to the other little Ninjas (it's 73% stiffer than the 500 spring). I'm assuming you're lighter than that, so going to a softer spring should make the rear work better for you. The PreGen's spring is good for about 140lb on a NewGen, but the shock is a little shorter so it would lower the rear and make the handling a bit slower (plus it lacks any preload adjustment). If you can find a decent one cheap on eBay, it might be worth tossing one in just to try it out though (they're usually ~$20 here).

The stock shocks are simple, non-adjustable, non-rebuildable, lowest-bidder units. Aftermarket shocks give you more adjustment options for tweaking the damping system (usually separate for compression and rebound) and are built with higher quality, replaceable parts (so when something wears out on it, you just replace that one part instead of buying a whole new shock). 395 is US$615 which seems somewhat expensive to me. A new Penske is about $800 here, and used ones can be half that. The nice thing about buying a new shock is that they generally include a spring and calibration to match your weight. It should be basically a perfect drop-in upgrade.

If you can do a bit of mod work, the GSX-R shock swap is a pretty cheap way to get a decent shock, and there are a variety of spring rates used on the various models (there's a chart of different rates/weights toward the end of the thread). It's not made specifically for the Ninja's suspension, and requires a bit of work to make it fit, but they're usually on eBay for about 1/10 the cost of that Brook shock. The SV650 shock doesn't have all the adjustments (it's comparable to our stock shock) but should require less work to install, as another cheap DIY option that's probably more suited to your weight.


NewGen Fork Spring Rate Chart
Again, the NewGen has the stiffest fork springs of the little Ninjas. It's still a tad low, but should be acceptable if you're smaller. If you're a fatty like me, it's still quite a ways off, but it is possible for it to match up fairly well to the weight of a smaller adult (unlike the PreGen and 500, which have essentially useless fork springs).

The stock front and rear are pretty mismatched, so if you're smaller and go with a lighter rear spring, you're actually reducing that mismatch and making it less-bad than stock. On the PreGen and 500, replacing a soft rear spring with something appropriate can exacerbate the problems of the super-soft fork springs (because you're increasing the mismatch).


If some of the links don't work,etc me know.
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Old May 8th, 2022, 01:56 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Ghostt View Post
Have to set the sag/preload on the bike? The rear shock is adjustable, what setting is it on? Did you test/inspect the shock itself when you had the spring out?

Check out the videos on how to set the sag, and what suspension is.

https://youtu.be/ZtzTyCKh5fY

https://youtu.be/uz_p-iu9C_s

Here is a link to race tech, check out the calculator.as well.

https://racetech.com/VehicleSearch

Below is a picture of the NewGen rear shock installed in my PreGen 250.If you look at the preload adjuster it's set on the highest (stiffest) setting. If you need it softer, adjust the preload by turning it down.

Once again what was the sag on the bike?
FYI he's talking about his CSC, not a Ninjette
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Old May 8th, 2022, 05:54 AM   #27
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Wow thanks for all the comments guys ! this is a CSC RX4 a 450cc motor in a heavy frame the bike weighs 450lbs so they say but I've never felt a 450 lb bike that weighed this much, I'd say it is closer to 500 lbs soaking wet....
.... Danno if it's locking up the suspension because of the bolts being tight it certainly was not by design , it is designed with Needle bearings and bearing bushings that go inside and ride on the needle bearings that the bolts go through a good High quality design just like the Ninja's if anything it is a defective part in there... but I have not seen anything amiss, it all looks great and brand new....
....
Ghost there is no sag on this bike ....it does not compress at all when you get on it or bounce on the seat the only flex you feel is in the seat and the flex of the 28 psi in the tire.... i wouldn't have been able to get the 120 miles on this bike without reducing the air in the tire..... but the bike rides so extremely hard it is unreal... so I am trying to fix that....
.... the rear swing arm does not move at all when you get on it it's like straddling a pallet there is absolutely no flex ! so you can't set the Sag...because there is no sag....
I have lowered the bike by about 2" but the rear suspension is the same as the day they delivered it as far as the flexing goes
...when I lowered the rear I simply took the nuts on top of the spring in the rear shock and raised them to the top of the shock ...that in effect lowered the rear 2"....
....
in all honesty I believe the only problem is that the spring they threw in there is just way too stiff..... there was some serious issues early on with the rear of the bike bottoming out when going over jumps so they fixed that....
...well it looks like they fixed it too well and made it way too stiff...

I'll let ya know what I find out....
......
Bob......
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Old May 8th, 2022, 06:29 AM   #28
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Just a F.Y.I thing here.... when I jacked up the bike in the shop (concrete floor)
with a modified scissors jack, I got the rear tire off the ground by about 1/2"
but the swing arm should have pivoted down as it was it was holding the spring tight to the top pre-load adjusting nuts..... it didn't even move...
I thought that strange so I moved to the back of the bike and put the toe of my foot on the rear adjuster bracket for the rear wheel and pushed , nothing happened I then Pushed real hard and pulled up on the saddle bags to give me more force .... nothing no movement at all and it should have at least moved to the ground but it didn't ....
....
I just came back inside ( 30 degrees out there) And I had the Kid bounce on the seat again..... with the bolts loose under the bike on the linkage no movement at all...... I did not have the rear swingarm retaining bolt loose however.... now I am thinking I need to do that too.....
.... it's like it can't flex because everything is too stiff.....and the spring is too strong.....
....
Bob.......
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Old May 8th, 2022, 09:32 PM   #29
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Again, move swingarm up & down with no shock installed.
And measure actual spring-rate of factory spring along with one you got from RaceTech.


Post photos of OEM and RaceTech spring side-by-side.
Post photos of suspension.
Does it have rising-rate linkage? Or is shock attached directly to swingarm?

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Old May 9th, 2022, 04:03 AM   #30
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LOL what your asking for is more work than the Bike ! LOL
I'll see if I can figure out how to measure the springs
.... to get the shock out I must remove the lower linkage i know that the swing arm does move but how easy it will move is another story...
I'd have to remove the rear wheel to do that right.... and that wheel is very heavy.....reminds me of the back wheel of the VT1100 honda I had !...
....
Ok I'll see what I can do !
.....

I got some more info... the stock spring is 810 lbs. no wonder it rides so hard right !!! And putting in a 537 lb. spring should by all accounts make for a softer ride according to Mr. Young on the china riders forum. but I feel no difference at all. he went the route to have a custom shock made and tried 3 springs for it... but that was months ago and he can't remember all the details..... he's old and has had recent health problems .
.....
Bob......
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Old May 10th, 2022, 10:28 AM   #31
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Messing with the bike in the cold shop has been put on hold for a while AGAIN... the weather turned cold and we had an inch of snow last night !
I am really looking forward to warmer weather it seems like it is slow in coming this year ! my poor apple trees just has their new leaves frosted on
and perhaps some blossoms so there won't be an abundant crop of apples this year....
....
I'll continue to hunt for a lighter spring for the RX4 in the mean time !
....
Bob.....
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Old May 11th, 2022, 02:50 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Again, move swingarm up & down with no shock installed.
And measure actual spring-rate of factory spring along with one you got from RaceTech.


Post photos of OEM and RaceTech spring side-by-side.
Post photos of suspension.
Does it have rising-rate linkage? Or is shock attached directly to swingarm?

I don't know what you call this linkage Danno I guess it's a rising link setup
like the 2012 ninja but the link is reversed and the shock on the other side
the shock is not hooked directly to the swing arm....
the dog bones are not the same as on the ninja it's a u shaped arm arrangement that hooks to the frame and then to the lower link and then the lower link hooks to the swing arm and the shock the movement is very small
like 2" max the rear travel is something like 4.5" is all
Peter Youngblood is sending me 3 springs for free all I have to do is reimburse him for the shipping.... but I think I will add a bit to that <Grin>
....I doubt those springs will help but it will give me more options !
as the one that works for him is on his bike hehehehe !
..... we'll see what happens !
.....
Bob.....
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Old May 11th, 2022, 05:12 PM   #33
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OK here is a pic of my shock on the ground under the bike....
and a pic of the 2 springs I have, the Red one is the stock shock spring and the blue one is the one from Race tech. the last 3 numbers on it are 496 so I am assuming that means it is a 496 lb spring.
....
Bob....
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File Type: jpg stock sp & Racetech sp..jpg (66.4 KB, 34 views)
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Old May 11th, 2022, 05:33 PM   #34
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Oh and btw, I can move the swing arm up and down fairly easily...I had the bolt loose so I torqued it down and did it again and it gained a bit of drag to it ...not much but some ....
....
I also took the spring off again and actuated the shock by hand a few times
it does not move very fast at all no matter how much I push or pull on it in either direction....(and I have the adjustment screw all the way to the fast side) I expect that to change however with time and some miles on it that shock hasn't really been used it rides too hard to actuate the shock LOL...... so for a brand new shock i guess it's working great....
it's just that the spring is about 3 times too stiff for the bike ! at least that is my take on the situation ! LOL

I bet some pencil pusher edited the program and put the wrong spring in there .... because surely they wouldn't sell their best bike with too stiff of a rear spring in there on purpose !!! lol....
we'll see what happens
Bob.......
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Old May 13th, 2022, 01:11 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII View Post
OK here is a pic of my shock on the ground under the bike....
and a pic of the 2 springs I have, the Red one is the stock shock spring and the blue one is the one from Race tech. the last 3 numbers on it are 496 so I am assuming that means it is a 496 lb spring.
....
Bob....
Well, there's your problem. Factory spring is dual-rate design. Probably starts at about 300-lb/in. Then after 1-2" of compression or so, it switches to 600-lbs/in (8 active coils go down to 4). That's why you're getting beat up when it hits bumps.



RaceTech single-rate spring starts out too stiff compared to stock. That's probably why you've got way too much preload and zero sag with it installed.

I say get 300-lb/in 10" spring and be done with it! All this messing around without quantitative data wastes lots of time & money.

BTW - do you have manual that shows how shock goes together? Or take photo from side with it installed so we can see how linkage connects frame & swingarm.

I'm thinking rising-rate linkage combined with dual-rate spring is too much increase in wheel-rate as suspension compresses. Rising-rate is crutch and hedge against good suspension design. Modern suspension designs are getting away from rising-rate linkages and attaching shock directly to swingarm.

Here's one from GSXR1000


Aprilia Dorsoduro

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Old May 13th, 2022, 03:28 PM   #36
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"RaceTech single-rate spring starts out too stiff compared to stock. That's probably why you've got way too much preload and zero sag with it installed.

I say get 300-lb/in 10" spring and be done with it! All this messing around without quantitative data wastes lots of time & money."

there is no preload with the stock spring and there is no preload with the racetech spring both are too stiff ! the weight of the bike hits the spring and stops dead...
there is no sag at all so far, it's like sitting on a park bench no flex at all when you get on it even with the pressure reduced in the shock itself I thought that might have allowed it to flex but no, it didn't....it was worth a try....
CSC says the only spring they carry is the stock one... they pointed me to "Cogent" for a solution.... ( like I have $850 for a shock for a $5000 bike!)
.....
I guess the only thing I can do is keep buying springs of lower and lower value till i find one that actually makes the ride softer.... stupid way to do things but that is what I am left with !
.....
Bob......
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Old May 13th, 2022, 03:46 PM   #37
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Sorry, I'm using "preload" incorrectly. Should say "sag" instead since that's what we want. Some amount of compression with no load on bike. Apparently RaceTech spring is still too stiff to allow any amount of sag.

Since you have decent ride-quality when not hitting big bumps, I say next spring should be 300-lb/in linear-rate. Will be same rate as stock initial-rate and not double itself to beat you up on bumps. Does top of shock connect to frame or to swingarm? Looks like they copied Honda's ProLink or Unit ProLink linkage.




Here's Ducati Multistrada V4S

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Old May 13th, 2022, 03:54 PM   #38
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LOL Well Peter Y. was surprised at the money I sent him by Zelle
for the postage on the springs... I sent him $60 bucks I told him those springs are worth that to me.... they should be here next friday I think...USPS.
....hard to say what I will get ,I bought a "Pig in a Poke" HAHAHAH
but he said he threw in the spring from his RX3 which is a 250cc and lighter bike so I am hoping it will work on the RX4 !
....
Yah Duel rate spring or pregressive rate I don't know which....
I am thinking of attaching my mini dash cam that I got to the bottom of the saddle bag and take a movie of the rear tire in action and see if that stupid swing arm does actually move with the stock spring in it ...I bet you dollars to donuts it doesn't !
....
My XR650L I had was really tall and sprung really tight but it was liveable
it was hard riding as well but nothing as hard as this RX4....
i find it extremely ODD that this bike is so hard !
.....
there was a few guys on the china riders forum that also complained about the ride 3 of them out of about 8 or so owners one modified the seat...extensively then sold the bike a few months later...(wanted more power) another paid Cogent an hefty amount for a whole new custom made shock that he had to get the spring for.... and the other guy said yah it rides hard but I'll live with it I don't go off road much...
.... and I wouldn't have gotten 120 miles on this bike without lowering the air pressure in the rear to 28 p.s.i. that made it almost rideable
.... but now I am tackling the problem... i want to do it right... with sag adjustment and all that....
.....
I'll keep ya informed of my progress or lack there of LOL
Bob.......
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Old May 13th, 2022, 04:49 PM   #39
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The rocker's leverage-ratio seems a little extreme.

N250 pre-gen = 1:1.5
N250 new-gen = 1:2.2
RX4 = 1:3 ?

It's already taking an extremely stiff dual-rate spring and multiplying it by 300% !!!

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Old May 13th, 2022, 05:32 PM   #40
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yes seems like a bike of extremes to me .... LOL
so if it has a 3:1 ratio on the link that would explain the super hard spring
it takes more spring pressure to hold the bike up.... but it looks like they went over board..and put in too much spring....
I wonder if it's a viable idea to remove the linkage and weld in a bracket on the rear swing arm and get a new shock and hook it directly..... not really worth thinking about actually ..especially since I only need the right spring and it should work great !
makes me wonder if there would be an easy way to increase that leverage
and use the stock spring ... like a 1/2" extension to one of the pivots or something like that....
....Not being able to measure these springs and get their rates is really hampering me ! I can't even make an educated guess on their rate as they are just too stiff for anything I have available....
.... I bet I could squeeze the springs in the tailstock of the lathe though
but I would need a thin scale that goes to 1000 pounds
I could easily measure any spring then so it might be worth buying a scale ...if I can find one that would do the trick....
.... the Mill also has a good ability to compress a spring like that.....
it might upset my little mill though ! LOL I made a camper jack Knee for it and it can lift over 1200 lbs with the knee alone.
I'll see if I can find a scale that would work !
....
Bob......
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