Engine Dies w/ throttle + shimming needles

[kevlarorc]

I hate to keep starting threads in here but I keep running in to problems.. I really suck at pretty much any kind of engine or bike related problems.

So since I laid my bike down on Monday I decided to take the time while I find a painter to start trying some of the DIYs I've seen on here.
Today I tried shimming the needles following the DIY. I put everything back together and tried to take it down the block. It started up OK but as soon as it started idling it sounded like I heard a little bit of knocking and also from the exhaust it sounded almost as if the pistons (?) were out of sync or something. Tomorrow I can try to record some audio/video of it if you would like to hear it. I figured I'd just try to go around the block and see if it worked itself out. I made it about 200 feet down the block, took a turn and the engine just died out. I tried starting it back up and the engine cranked for a minute then lazily sputtered to life again. I tried giving it throttle and it died. I started it up again, each time I did it took more and more cranks. I used some choke when in idle and it went up to 4k rpm. I tried giving some throttle and it started dying again. I then started modulating the clutch and the bike seemed to move fine that way but as soon as I gave it any throttle it would start to die again.

Now it's possible that this is because of shimming the needles, I don't know the technology behind it. Tomorrow I will pull open the first carb I did and check to see if I seated the spring right, as it was being a PITA.

However, I remember that right after my crash when I was getting ready to head home it had also died when I opened the throttle. However, when I was riding home (a good few miles) it wasn't making the knocking sound or any un-synced sound. So I think the knocking sound may be the shimming and the engine dying after throttle something from the bike being dropped?
I just don't really know where to start with diagnosing this other than checking to make sure I seated the springs right in the carbs.
Any help is greatly appreciated.

[austexjg]

I was thinking about trying this myself - I have not had any problems with the bike running funny since my slide - I think the RPMs were slightly higher at highway speed on the ride home after the slide than before?

Did the bike run okay before the shimming?

[ninja250]

Pop the shims back out and make sure it's running normal again. (PITA I know)
If so and you go to pop the shims back in, measure them with a micrometer or caliper first and make sure they are equally the same stack height or as close as you can get them.

Also triple check those little slider boots got seated correctly and are not torn.

Do you have your snorkel removed?

How many shims did you add? If all else fails, sounds like you maybe shimmed it too much? But not sure.. could be very wrong about that.

You might also need to tune the carbs now after shimming..

[mike_sema]

check and make sure that you hooked up the fuel lines right 1st, did you disconnect the lines to the tank if it is a Cali bike you will have 3 lines make sure you connected them in the right spots

[kevlarorc]

Originally Posted by austexjg

I was thinking about trying this myself - I have not had any problems with the bike running funny since my slide - I think the RPMs were slightly higher at highway speed on the ride home after the slide than before?

Did the bike run okay before the shimming?

Well it ran fine on the way home after my crash except for the one shutdown right as I was leaving. I haven't ridden the bike since then, I had only started it up to make sure it idled okay. I should have done it but it just slipped my mind. I think it takes more hitting of the ignition to start up now though.

Originally Posted by ninja250

Also triple check those little slider boots got seated correctly and are not torn.

are slider boots the rubber speaker looking things inside the carbs?

Originally Posted by ninja250

Do you have your snorkel removed?

no

Originally Posted by ninja250

How many shims did you add? If all else fails, sounds like you maybe shimmed it too much? But not sure.. could be very wrong about that.

You might also need to tune the carbs now after shimming..

I put in two 3mm on each needle washers as recommended. The ones from RadioShack.

Originally Posted by mike_sema

check and make sure that you hooked up the fuel lines right 1st, did you disconnect the lines to the tank if it is a Cali bike you will have 3 lines make sure you connected them in the right spots

Yes I reconnected all the lines. I don't have CA spec. I connected the vent on the far left side and the two on the petcock as well as the wire to the fuel gauge.


I will take it apart again tomorrow and hope that it gets fixed. It's frustrating because those screws on the carbs want to strip so badly and I can't get in there as well as I'd like. I really want to avoid paying hundreds of dollars for an A-hole mechanic to tell me he can't figure out the problem. In the DIY for shimming it says to be careful not to touch the rubber stuff in the carbs but I have very unsteady hands and accidentally touched it with my tweezers a couple times (I always lost at that board game Operation). Does anyone know exactly what the springs inside the carbs do? It's extremely hard to get them to compress straight in that mess of tubes and what not.

edit: Oh I forgot, there was one hose that ran over the top of my battery that I didn't remember seeing before and it wasn't connected to anything. It looked like a vent hose but i'll try to see where it leads to tomorrow or take a picture.

[MKlein3004]

also check your connections to your ignition modules on each side. I believe thats what they are called. they have 3 spade connectors on them and they can get lose sometime. especially with a little spill like that they could have came loose a little, then when messing with all the stuff to get the needles shimmed you might have bummed them or you they might have vibrated loose on the ride home from your accident. I had that problem and it bogged down really bad when i was riding home, like it was on 1 cylinder, and it wouldnt keep going after it eventually died on me. I limped it home then found out taht some people have been having this problem with there bikes and i tightened the spade connections down a bit and haven't had a problem with it too much, occasionally i have to push it on a little more if i feel it is doing the same thing again. just another thing to make sure you check since you have the fairings off anyways.

[kevlarorc]

Originally Posted by MKlein3004

also check your connections to your ignition modules on each side. I believe thats what they are called. they have 3 spade connectors on them and they can get lose sometime. especially with a little spill like that they could have came loose a little, then when messing with all the stuff to get the needles shimmed you might have bummed them or you they might have vibrated loose on the ride home from your accident. I had that problem and it bogged down really bad when i was riding home, like it was on 1 cylinder, and it wouldnt keep going after it eventually died on me. I limped it home then found out taht some people have been having this problem with there bikes and i tightened the spade connections down a bit and haven't had a problem with it too much, occasionally i have to push it on a little more if i feel it is doing the same thing again. just another thing to make sure you check since you have the fairings off anyways.

Thanks. I'll take a look around for some spade connectors. I have no earthly idea what an ignition module looks like.

edit: is it like the top bit in this diagram?
http://webservices.motorsportdealers...1527/E1830.Gif
(part 21121?)

[HKr1]

Originally Posted by kevlarorc

I put in two 3mm on each needle washers as recommended. The ones from RadioShack.

.

3mm is like .120, And you used two. I wouldnt shim a stock needle more than .050. Just like how they make them lean(fix needle), they taper the end of the needle. So you raise it to much, its just gonna be to rich.

guessing maybe the 3mm is the hole size?

[MKlein3004]

that looks right to me but i will let you know when i go to workout and i will look inside the fairing and see if that is in fact it. I can reach in through the top portion of the fairing and get my hands on it so i will let you know in a few.

[Momaru]

I'm reasonably sure they don't offer 3mm thick washers @ RadioShack, so I'd put money that 3mm is the hole size, which is about right for the needles.

Also 21121 is the ignition coil according to online parts listings.

Gareth, you might make a trip to your local hardware store for some better screws for your carb covers. There are 8 commonly stripped 4x18mm screws on the top (4 holding down each black plastic mix chamber cap), 8 more 4mmx14mm screws on the bottom of the carbs (4 per float bowl). I wound up getting a dozen of each because I have more practice than I'd like with removing stripped screws.

[kevlarorc]

I took the washers back off the needles and it's running fine now. I didn't get it going too fast but I think I'll just wait on shimming the needles again until I can be positive that the bike is running fine stock.
Thanks for all the advice guys. I did manage to find those ignition modules, Mklein.

and yea they were 3mm holes not 3mm thick. They look just like the ones in the DIY by Viper-Byte

[austexjg]

Glad it runs okay - I was thinking about shimming my carbs, are you going to try it again?

[kevlarorc]

I might try it but not any time soon. I'm going to give it a few weeks of riding just to be sure everything is running as it should. I mean, the bike runs great stock I just wanted to see the improvement with shimming, and in this case the unimprovement.

[ninja250]

Get yourself a FP jet kit.
Comes with the nicer Allen cap screws and needles with E-clip adjust ability.
Never know how increasing main jet a small amount will help the stock bike above 7-8k too. Fun to play around and use your butt dyno.
I think I read somewhere that it's lean after 10k in the stock configuration, mostly noticeable by the decline to pull past 10k quickly.

Sounds like maybe something just wasn't seated right or something. Glad it runs OK again.
Maybe try popping the snorkel first instead.

[MKlein3004]

glad everything worked out, gotta find some of those washers and shim it, it makes all the difference, or it did for my bike.

[mike_sema]

glad everything worked out

[p1noysta]

When I go to start the bike it won't come on. Even with the choke I have to give it alil gas to keep it on

[p1noysta]

I tried to take a pic but dont have access to a comp right now but its like half the thickness of a dime
I figured out why it wasnt starting my choke wasn't working because the little clip where the carb covers are came off. The bike runs real good now but it's still a little hesitant going back down to idle but I'm just going to wait for my slip-on before I think about tearing into the carb again thanks for all the help

[00NissanNinja]

Originally Posted by p1noysta

I tried to take a pic but dont have access to a comp right now but its like half the thickness of a dime
I figured out why it wasnt starting my choke wasn't working because the little clip where the carb covers are came off. The bike runs real good now but it's still a little hesitant going back down to idle but I'm just going to wait for my slip-on before I think about tearing into the carb again thanks for all the help

How many washers did you use and what size? Is it stock? Sounds like it may be a little leaner now for some reason since it is hesitant to return to idle (correct me if im wrong).

[kevlarorc]

holy bump, batman.
I ended up redo-ing my shimming a while after my OP and if I remember correctly the problem is I was using washers with too big of inner holes and they weren't seating properly on the needles.